Basildon site action on 19 September

[Deleted member 967]

Hi Channa

Are you sure it is the official attitude or is it just local office predudice that classed you as a gypsy at the Benefit Office. I met this local predudice when I was behind the counter. I looked up the Codes of Practice (held in every office) and found that the travellers could be treated as ordinary claimants if the Post Office would deliver to their given address. I spoke to the Post Office and they told me that they already did deliver as they were well known in the area. I then had it out with the manager. He had to agree with the codes and the travellers were delighted with being treated as normal claimants. Prior to this the benefit office staff had them on daily signing and they had to collect their benifits from the office. Once it was sorted out they signed once every two weeks. A junior officer had taken it on themselves to impose these retrictions and the management had not queried it.

 

[Channa]

Hi Channa

Are you sure it is the official attitude or is it just local office predudice that classed you as a gypsy at the Benefit Office.

TBH John I was told I was traveller status on the line you need to ring before I was assigned an appointment at the local benefit office.(so I guess official ? ) At the office itself I was questioned as to why after being abroad I had decided to lay roots in Doncaster. And in fairness I was treated with respect and courtesy, which was naturally recipricated.

In fairness, after I explained that I grew up there, worked there and had contributed to the local economy there were few questions.

However on occasion the fact I was transient albeit in the Doncaster area caused temporary consternation, It seems like round two is beckoning in November this year when my contract finishes.

Back OT, I am trying to illustrate to Cooljules that blanket labelling is wrong , judge a book by its cover etc

Channa

 

[cooljules]

Good for you but in your response you conveniently forgot to give your opinion on landowners wishes? sadly a consideration in respect of wild camping perhaps ? and a a significant part of my question.

So if you dont want anyone to think you are a traveller, hows about incoherent scumbag from Council estate in Sheffield ?

Thats a label, Welcome to the world of labels If you are offended 'tough' ...........

Welcome to my world not nice is it ? BTW I dont think for a moment you are a scumbag just trying to show how easy it is to label peeps inappropriately

Channa

well if someone had met many of the lowlife you find on council estates and that was it, of course they would think that they are all like that.... it doesnt bother me in the slightest what someone thinks of me for where i like, dont give a damn, but EVERY single traveller i have come across did nothing but break the law....simple.

 

[Firefox]

I don't think the ones at Dale Farm create a lot of mess, their caravans and gardens are pretty neat and tidy from the pics I've seen and they take a lot of pride in their camp. I've got some sympathy for them but not really for the ones who have second bricks and mortar homes back in Ireland. I don't know how far that extends across the group though.

We all break the law to some extent. A lot of wild camping is technically trespass, and we can be moved on in the same way, in time. The difference being we are usually in and out within a night or maybe two so the issue doesn't arise. And who can say they haven't broken parking rules or speed limits on many occasions.

 

[Deleted member 3802]

spec savers have announced record sales of rose tinted glass's this week and are hoping to break this again next week

 

[Tbear]

We are all travellers of a kind and I sometimes use grey areas of the law to parkup for the night. The big difference between me and these people is that if I am asked to move on I do. Given a good reason, I move without comment. I do not cost millions of pounds over ten years when I know I'm in the wrong.
Imagine if that money had been spent on Aires

Richard

 

[cooljules]

We are all travellers of a kind and I sometimes use grey areas of the law to parkup for the night. The big difference between me and these people is that if I am asked to move on I do. Given a good reason, I move without comment. I do not cost millions of pounds over ten years when I know I'm in the wrong.
Imagine if that money had been spent on Aires

Richard

yup and how can they be travellers, with bungalows and huge statics....you aint moved for a year you aint a traveller never mind 10 years..

 

[kimbowbill]

got to have my say

My Granparents were Romany Gypsies, there land was taken off them and they were forced to settle in a council estate in sheffield, they were hard woking people and made a living through making things, my grandad was a rag and bone ma. When i started school, i was labelled as scum, scrubber, scrounger, freeloader, tramp my parents have never claimed one penny of the state, they have always worked, always had a car, a mortgage, and gave us the best uprbringing any child could ask for, i have always worked and so have my children, i live on a council estate in Sheffield, i have a motrohome and choose not to stay on campsites, i've never stole anything in my life expect for someones heart, my real name is a true gypsy name but i have had to change it because of peoples attitiudes, we should not tar everyone with the same brush, there is good and bad in everyone.

Travellers should not be treated any different just because they have a different lifestyle, of course some travellers are criminals, but so are people living on estates, whats the difference? you see kids just chucking rubbish on the floor next to bins, spitting, swearing and generally being a nuiscence, so we accept that because they live in a house, we dont accept it when they live in a caravan, i dont see what the difference is, cooljules said he woundn't trust one, with respect CJ they probably wounldn't trust you either, why should they, they dont know you, trust has to be earnt and nobody ever seems to give travellers a chance to earn the trust, if you call a child stupid enough times, they will be stupid, its same with Travellers, label them criminals, they become criminals, if people accepted Travellers into their communty they wouldnt be half the problems we have now, thats my view,

 

[cooljules]

My Granparents were Romany Gypsies, there land was taken off them and they were forced to settle in a council estate in sheffield, they were hard woking people and made a living through making things, my grandad was a rag and bone ma. When i started school, i was labelled as scum, scrubber, scrounger, freeloader, tramp my parents have never claimed one penny of the state, they have always worked, always had a car, a mortgage, and gave us the best uprbringing any child could ask for, i have always worked and so have my children, i live on a council estate in Sheffield, i have a motrohome and choose not to stay on campsites, i've never stole anything in my life expect for someones heart, my real name is a true gypsy name but i have had to change it because of peoples attitiudes, we should not tar everyone with the same brush, there is good and bad in everyone.

Travellers should not be treated any different just because they have a different lifestyle, of course some travellers are criminals, but so are people living on estates, whats the difference? you see kids just chucking rubbish on the floor next to bins, spitting, swearing and generally being a nuiscence, so we accept that because they live in a house, we dont accept it when they live in a caravan, i dont see what the difference is, cooljules said he woundn't trust one, with respect CJ they probably wounldn't trust you either, why should they, they dont know you, trust has to be earnt and nobody ever seems to give travellers a chance to earn the trust, if you call a child stupid enough times, they will be stupid, its same with Travellers, label them criminals, they become criminals, if people accepted Travellers into their communty they wouldnt be half the problems we have now, thats my view,

your not too far from me, and years ago on this estate we had problems with them, they tried to move onto some land at firth park, everyone objected. and with the state of the sites you see, with litter etc, just like they have being doing at the main one in kent, its not surprising. they go around collecting scrap, fair enough, but the ones i have seen go up garden paths and take anything metal, even the chains and locks etc. nothing is safe. just look at the disgusting litter etc they dropped at the rear of the shops at attercliffe road. the council ahd to put height barriers up.

ok i have met you, you seem fine.

there are lots of people on my estate, who steal, do drugs, no insurance etc. just free loaders, but the decent people have nothing to do with them... yet all the travellers stick together. i would shop my own mother if i knew she was commiting serious crimes..

 

[Tbear]

I'm not sure how relevant it is, whether these people are nice, productive, clean living folk or not. I am sure there are numerous people who would like to expand their villages and hamlets but are prevented by green belt planning regs. If you let one group ignore these regs, what do you tell the rest?

 

[kimbowbill]

your not too far from me, and years ago on this estate we had problems with them, they tried to move onto some land at firth park, everyone objected. and with the state of the sites you see, with litter etc, just like they have being doing at the main one in kent, its not surprising. they go around collecting scrap, fair enough, but the ones i have seen go up garden paths and take anything metal, even the chains and locks etc. nothing is safe. just look at the disgusting litter etc they dropped at the rear of the shops at attercliffe road. the council ahd to put height barriers up.

ok i have met you, you seem fine.

there are lots of people on my estate, who steal, do drugs, no insurance etc. just free loaders, but the decent people have nothing to do with them... yet all the travellers stick together. i would shop my own mother if i knew she was commiting serious crimes..

I am fine CJ, i'm honest, hardworking person thats never commited an offence (oopps sorry 1 speeding) I will help anyone out whenever i can, as you know but i'm of gypsy blood, does that make me a bad person? i know what your saying about Attercliffe but also there are as many Asian people who have turned Attercliffe into a dump, not only gypsies, this is my point, good and bad in everyone

 

[Channa]

afe.
. yet all the travellers stick together.

Perhaps they do CJ, its called a community.

Does this website and our cyber community not follow the same doctrine ?

I know there has been meets in the past for those that enjoy it so we have a prescence in the real world.

Do we not collectively share information to protect our pastime ?............ particularly in respect of places to wild ?

Is there not evidence in the forums to suggest we collectively try and promote wildcamping to those who are against us, dont understand us, or perhaps scared of our motives through ignorance ?

A read through the threads would suggest we all do this ...a collective 'stick together'.

The current Scarborough thread and a description of some arrogant and atrocious motorhome parking, risks labelling all of us motorhomers as inconsiderate nuisances in the minds of people that just see a motorhome.

I would hope non of our members are guilty parties............ but the behaviour described makes our cause even more difficult.

It seems even good and bad in the Motorhome world, same as gypsies or any other sector of society.

Channa

 

[Alaska Guy]

Good insights

Still being quite new to this (and all other) forum, it is really heart warming to read the posts. I can understand where some are coming from in terms of not trusting travellers, but I think I relate more to the replies that speak about them as individuals with a different way of life.
All people are like any other animal, in that they react to how they are treated. I have not lived on an estate, nor next to a traveller site, but I have had times in my life when I was pigeon-holed unfairly and know how that feels. A childhood friend did actually have a traveller group move onto some scrap of land near his house on the edge of a Hampshire village; the first thing he did was to make contact and create a level of mutual respect. Neither he nor the village experienced any problems.
I can see the argument about the planning law infringement, and the decision by the council being one of not creating precedent. But if you look on one of those websites to do with smallholdings, you can usually find information about how to buy agricultural land and put a small dwelling structure on it to support the agri-enterprise. Planning officers sometimes actually help these people navigate the system. OK, this is different to the Basildon site, but the point is that planners, as council officers, are using the national planning legislation framework and still cannot meet the habitation needs of everybody in this country. Where a site is a former scrap yard, or derelict industrial site, why could they not find some way of allowing temporary use whilst a planning hearing process takes place? Unfortunately, that rather utopian idea just shows that the council system leans toward nimbyism. The TALK is all about human rights and noble ideals, but the WALK is about preventing travellers from entering into a genuine dialogue.

Thank you for all the interesting and concerned posts on this thread. It shows me that this forum has some really cool people in it. I look forward to getting to know you better.

 

[cooljules]

Still being quite new to this (and all other) forum, it is really heart warming to read the posts. I can understand where some are coming from in terms of not trusting travellers, but I think I relate more to the replies that speak about them as individuals with a different way of life.
All people are like any other animal, in that they react to how they are treated. I have not lived on an estate, nor next to a traveller site, but I have had times in my life when I was pigeon-holed unfairly and know how that feels. A childhood friend did actually have a traveller group move onto some scrap of land near his house on the edge of a Hampshire village; the first thing he did was to make contact and create a level of mutual respect. Neither he nor the village experienced any problems.
I can see the argument about the planning law infringement, and the decision by the council being one of not creating precedent. But if you look on one of those websites to do with smallholdings, you can usually find information about how to buy agricultural land and put a small dwelling structure on it to support the agri-enterprise. Planning officers sometimes actually help these people navigate the system. OK, this is different to the Basildon site, but the point is that planners, as council officers, are using the national planning legislation framework and still cannot meet the habitation needs of everybody in this country. Where a site is a former scrap yard, or derelict industrial site, why could they not find some way of allowing temporary use whilst a planning hearing process takes place? Unfortunately, that rather utopian idea just shows that the council system leans toward nimbyism. The TALK is all about human rights and noble ideals, but the WALK is about preventing travellers from entering into a genuine dialogue.

Thank you for all the interesting and concerned posts on this thread. It shows me that this forum has some really cool people in it. I look forward to getting to know you better.

Hi. thats a pretty fair reply.

one think i dont understand, is why if they are travellers, why have some been there for 10 years? others also many years....

as i have said before, i like the idea of travelling, from place to place, even stopping for a while. and while i have some factual programmes, showing them, and how they struggle daily. i even have taken a look at official traveller website, so got some idea about them.

one of the people living next door to this illigal site, has had many problems, non stop, on his own land...so its understandable why he and others want them to leave.

 

[Guernsey Donkey]

I come from a traveling family, you can see my grandmother with her sister as youngsters in front of a market stall, when she got married the tradition carried on, my Grandfather used to go around the streets selling logs to everybody and also had market stalls in Staines, Woking and Wokingham. I used to travel at times with him when selling logs to all "classes" of people and every body was so kind to us it seems to me that as the years have passed a lot of people have got very snobbish and look down on a people that have not been given a real chance in our society or not done as well as they have and that is sad because even one of our Royals has slept with what some would call "the down and outs" under bridges and on the streets. I come from a Romany background and very proud of it and being brought up a non raciest or class prejudiced - as long as each of us keeps to the law of the land let be. I am not aiming at any that have put posts up this is just me and my little moan up (Monday morning)

 

[Harmergeddon]

I'm not sure how relevant it is, whether these people are nice, productive, clean living folk or not. I am sure there are numerous people who would like to expand their villages and hamlets but are prevented by green belt planning regs. If you let one group ignore these regs, what do you tell the rest?

I agree with. I am not interested in who the people involved are or where they are from. The fact is houses have been built without planning permission. If we all started putting our own houses where ever we wanted very soon there would be houses all over the place. Yes i know this is a scrap yard but this kind of prescident of doing what you please whenever you want should not be allowed to be set. Especially when you consider the rescent riots that erupted over the country.
At the end of the day you should respect the laws of the land that you choose to live in. Imagine just what would happen to this site and the people on it if we were in Syria.

 

[John H]

I absolutely agree with tbear and harmergeddon - this should be viewed as a breach of planning law, and as such there is no excuse for what this group of people have done. Planning law applies equally to all of us and, for the sake of the rest of the community and the preservation of the green belt, we should all support the eviction (and bear in mind that part of the site does have planning permission and will remain). What I cannot support, however, is the kind of blind prejudice that states one "sort" of person should be turned on wherever they stop and others should be allowed to stay. This is a wildcamping site for goodness sake - how can anyone who subscribes to it complain that ALL gypsies are trouble? Do you not recognise the irony of what you are saying, cooljules? For what its worth, I have enjoyed the company and the hospitality of travelling Roma people on many ocassions and if we demand the right to park where we want to if we respect the local people and the environment then why should the same not apply to everyone, whatever their ethnicity or lifestyle?

 

[Deleted member 775]

it a difficult situation here ,ok they have broken planning regs ,but to me the planning regs in this country are a farse . as for traveling folk being trouble ,then yes some are ,but you look in papers and listen to the news there are trouble causes in all walks of life . we lived close to a travelers site at darrington in the 70s and i must say they were the nicest people you could wish to meet ,in fact i used to work for a guy called pat part time when on nights when i worked at kellingley pit ,he was a tarmacker and a coupe of times a week i would go off with him working ,and he payed well cash up front no problem . hugie burton another personal friend god rest his soul as he died some years ago he had a roller and used to lend it to the may queen parade ,and other fairs the village may have when they needed a nice car . but you should have heared the comments made behind his back he knew about the insults he got but shrugged his sholders and said thats there problem . i do think that many full timers have the romany in there blood, i must have as i loved our time in the van .my wife is of sicilian decent and we did a family tree and there is romany blood in her viens. aswell as other sicilian family ties also . councils arround the country have a duty to provide places for traveling families but they dont ,due to expense so to me this site as its owned by these folks should be given retrospect planning for the residents that are there now.

 

[Harmergeddon]

it a difficult situation here ,ok they have broken planning regs ,but to me the planning regs in this country are a farse .
so to me this site as its owned by these folks should be given retrospect planning for the residents that are there now.

The point is if we all decided to do this where would we end up? The planning laws may be a farse but they hopefully keep a rein on who can build what and where. I would leave the country very quickly if planning laws were removed allowing houses to be put up where ever people chose to. It would ruin the country side.

 

[Tbear]

it a difficult situation here ,ok they have broken planning regs ,but to me the planning regs in this country are a farse . as for traveling folk being trouble ,then yes some are ,but you look in papers and listen to the news there are trouble causes in all walks of life . we lived close to a travelers site at darrington in the 70s and i must say they were the nicest people you could wish to meet ,in fact i used to work for a guy called pat part time when on nights when i worked at kellingley pit ,he was a tarmacker and a coupe of times a week i would go off with him working ,and he payed well cash up front no problem . hugie burton another personal friend god rest his soul as he died some years ago he had a roller and used to lend it to the may queen parade ,and other fairs the village may have when they needed a nice car . but you should have heared the comments made behind his back he knew about the insults he got but shrugged his sholders and said thats there problem . i do think that many full timers have the romany in there blood, i must have as i loved our time in the van .my wife is of sicilian decent and we did a family tree and there is romany blood in her viens. aswell as other sicilian family ties also . councils arround the country have a duty to provide places for traveling families but they dont ,due to expense so to me this site as its owned by these folks should be given retrospect planning for the residents that are there now.

That would be the "nice" thing to do but then you would have set a president and all such sites would have to be legalised. Where would it stop?