All electric motorhomes.... Possible or not?

landoboguy

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I have a Tesla Model S, costs around £12.00 overnight to fill it up to say 300 miles, (real world drive miles is less more ilke 270) I can charge it up even less if I was on economy 7 tarrif.
The real saving comes if you are doing lots of miles, I dont do half as many as I used too, so that recoup has dwindled off, but if you do plenty miles and have good range, it can make good sense

Would I get rid of the Tesla and go back to ICE...Not a chance in hell, smoothest, easiest, nicest and certainly the fastest car Ive ever had, and I wont be going back to ICE cars againif I have a choice, plus tehey hold the money quite well.

As for lithium exhaustion, figues taken form the Critical Mineral Resources & Economic and Environmental Geology Prospects for Future Supply,
the world ony has around 60 years worth of Lithium at current ICE car levels (70m) if they were all of a sudden replaced with EV ( we know that cant happen)

There are approx 60-70 million ICE cars in the world and that will take a good long while to gradually change over to EVs, so the 60 years worth of Lithium left all of a sudden can quite easily turn to 90- 100 - 120 years (at current figures). Not taking into account any recycling it out of old lithium batteries which at the moment as its a newsih technology isnt really done. Also worth noting is lithium is in all manner of other things not just batteries.

Going a little off track but If we compare the recent rise in Lithium to the rise of Lead acid in the past,, its easier to see a similar set of figures with a similar trajectory/ lifespan of longevity of mineral supply. Yes we know of course ICE cars have only 1 lead acid battery where as EV cars are full of Lithium ones, but the comparison atm is lead acid cars on the road 60million, ev cars about 1 million. We are about as likely to run out of lead as much as we are Lithium if we treat lithium the same way as lead has been treated by way of mining/recycling and product use.

Estimated levels of Lithium on earth 18m tonnes (new reserves may be found, arctic etc)
Esitmated Amount of Lead 60 million tonnes
So then if you take into account of how much lead (weight) goes into a battery vs how much lithium (and cobalt etc) then you start to see the tonnage gap closing .
Also take into account how much quicker Lithium takes a charge and how many more cycles they can be used before end of life compared to lead

THEN if you take into account the upscaling of recycling of the lithium/cobalt etc, (which needs to happen and will happen from the miserly 3 percent that happpens now) get to more like lead recycle levels of around 60% (though yes almost 90% of a lead battery can be recovered.) then all of a sudden the gap shrinks quite quickly,especially if it is recycled as widely as lead is nowadays.

This all points to heading down the rare mineral recycling route and cost of supply can tumble and 200+ years of longevity could well be a reality.

Top and bottom of it, everyone is screaming not enough lithium, no lithium, and I guess if we had the technology back in the day we would have screamed the same about lead/copper/zinc..... but we just mined and mined. Then recycling kcicked in so the longevity of lead grows and for more and more. It will be the same with Lithium, RECYCLE is the answer.
Lets not even start about emissions,c02,coal( still the worlds largest energy resource), acids, titanium in exhausts etc

Oh and if Im wrong, come back and tell me in 150 years , But I guess by that time we will all be running our vehicles on water wont we ??
 
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Jon

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Hydrogen Fuel Cells are the way forward, there are commercial aircraft flying already and land vehicles have been on the market for sale since 1997 (Toyota) Once the infrastructure is in place which will happen, (Japan is converting the whole country right now) it will be as easy to fill up your vehicle and drive without any emissions except H2O, and travel the same range as internal combustion engines. No need for these environmentally unsound, dangerous Lithium Batteries!
 

Jon

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I have a Tesla Model S, costs around £12.00 overnight to fill it up to say 300 miles, (real world drive miles is less more ilke 270) I can charge it up even less if I was on economy 7 tarrif.
The real saving comes if you are doing lots of miles, I dont do half as many as I used too, so that recoup has dwindled off, but if you do plenty miles and have good range, it can make good sense

Would I get rid of the Tesla and go back to ICE...Not a chance in hell, smoothest, easiest, nicest and certainly the fastest car Ive ever had, and I wont be going back to ICE cars againif I have a choice, plus tehey hold the money quite well.

As for lithium exhaustion, figues taken form the Critical Mineral Resources & Economic and Environmental Geology Prospects for Future Supply,
the world ony has around 60 years worth of Lithium at current ICE car levels (70m) if they were all of a sudden replaced with EV ( we know that cant happen)

There are approx 60-70 million ICE cars in the world and that will take a good long while to gradually change over to EVs, so the 60 years worth of Lithium left all of a sudden can quite easily turn to 90- 100 - 120 years (at current figures). Not taking into account any recycling it out of old lithium batteries which at the moment as its a newsih technology isnt really done. Also worth noting is lithium is in all manner of other things not just batteries.

Going a little off track but If we compare the recent rise in Lithium to the rise of Lead acid in the past,, its easier to see a similar set of figures with a similar trajectory/ lifespan of longevity of mineral supply. Yes we know of course ICE cars have only 1 lead acid battery where as EV cars are full of Lithium ones, but the comparison atm is lead acid cars on the road 60million, ev cars about 1 million. We are about as likely to run out of lead as much as we are Lithium if we treat lithium the same way as lead has been treated by way of mining/recycling and product use.

Estimated levels of Lithium on earth 18m tonnes (new reserves may be found, arctic etc)
Esitmated Amount of Lead 60 million tonnes
So then if you take into account of how much lead (weight) goes into a battery vs how much lithium (and cobalt etc) then you start to see the tonnage gap closing .
Also take into account how much quicker Lithium takes a charge and how many more cycles they can be used before end of life compared to lead

THEN if you take into account the upscaling of recycling of the lithium/cobalt etc, (which needs to happen and will happen from the miserly 3 percent that happpens now) get to more like lead recycle levels of around 60% (though yes almost 90% of a lead battery can be recovered.) then all of a sudden the gap shrinks quite quickly,especially if it is recycled as widely as lead is nowadays.

This all points to heading down the rare mineral recycling route and cost of supply can tumble and 200+ years of longevity could well be a reality.

Top and bottom of it, everyone is screaming not enough lithium, no lithium, and I guess if we had the technology back in the day we would have screamed the same about lead/copper/zinc..... but we just mined and mined. Then recycling kcicked in so the longevity of lead grows and for more and more. It will be the same with Lithium, RECYCLE is the answer.
Lets not even start about emissions,c02,coal( still the worlds largest energy resource), acids, titanium in exhausts etc

Oh and if Im wrong, come back and tell me in 150 years , But I guess by that time we will all be running our vehicles on water wont we ??
It is possible now to run all our vehicles on Hydrogen, no emissions, No Lithium with all of it's production/disposal poor power density problems, No charging of batteries by nuclear/gas fired power stations ( just passing the electricity production pollution down the line) There are already pollution/emission free cars, trucks, aircraft and ships available
 

trevskoda

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Hydrogen Fuel Cells are the way forward, there are commercial aircraft flying already and land vehicles have been on the market for sale since 1997 (Toyota) Once the infrastructure is in place which will happen, (Japan is converting the whole country right now) it will be as easy to fill up your vehicle and drive without any emissions except H2O, and travel the same range as internal combustion engines. No need for these environmentally unsound, dangerous Lithium Batteries!
Problem with that is it takes a very big amount of energy to strip out the hydrogen, so again back to energy costs at power stations.
 

Jon

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Problem with that is it takes a very big amount of energy to strip out the hydrogen, so again back to energy costs at power stations.
Take a look at this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54364426 and this
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...ogen-fuel-cell-do-hydrogen-cars-have-a-future
Hydrogen is extracted commercially from Natural Gas but can also (and is) electolysised from seawater using excessive current production from windfarms. It is just having the will to set up hydrogen production/distribution which is holding this up
 

Tookey

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So if necessary and my prediction is the Gov will still permit the sales of 100,000s of vehicles that are still reliant on fossil fuels to be fit for purpose although they are hybrid.

An example I would predict is HGV's using diesel the majority of their mileage on motorways and A roads and only switching to electric once in 30mph urban areas. Therefore his statement of 'some hybrid vehicles' still stands as correct. So I find his use of the expression 'some hybrid' suspicious as it leaves the number of fossil fuel reliant vehicles completely open
 
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landoboguy

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It is possible now to run all our vehicles on Hydrogen, no emissions, No Lithium with all of it's production/disposal poor power density problems, No charging of batteries by nuclear/gas fired power stations ( just passing the electricity production pollution down the line) There are already pollution/emission free cars, trucks, aircraft and ships available
I agree this is possibly the next step, there are standalone plces in the US and other countries have set up their own "stills" to produce it for home/automotive use and for various reasons it isnt a fore runner in the car market, obvs ones taxes/danger and manufacturing equipment degradation.
 

colinmd

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Japan is going to Hydrogen because of their circumstances, they might well be happier with BEV's but they haven't got as much space for wind/solar power, so they need a transportable energy that they can import, hydrogen fits this.
 

barryd

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Take a look at this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54364426 and this
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...ogen-fuel-cell-do-hydrogen-cars-have-a-future
Hydrogen is extracted commercially from Natural Gas but can also (and is) electolysised from seawater using excessive current production from windfarms. It is just having the will to set up hydrogen production/distribution which is holding this up
Very interesting article the Autoexpress one. Costs of the vehicle seem to be an issue but surely they will come down.

Why cant we have both? EV and Hydrogen. Right now it seems impossible to foresee how electric will work for everyone. Just the massive amount of charge points required alone is unimaginable and what about drivers that are doing hundreds of miles per day? Its going to be a long lunch hour while you sit and watch your car, van or lorry (surely they will always be diesel) fill up for several hours.
 

trevskoda

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Very interesting article the Autoexpress one. Costs of the vehicle seem to be an issue but surely they will come down.

Why cant we have both? EV and Hydrogen. Right now it seems impossible to foresee how electric will work for everyone. Just the massive amount of charge points required alone is unimaginable and what about drivers that are doing hundreds of miles per day? Its going to be a long lunch hour while you sit and watch your car, van or lorry (surely they will always be diesel) fill up for several hours.
Diesel will be phased out but not within the time scale, hybrid electric as others have said, as others have pointed out the word some in the clause will be the get out.
So petrol/electric will still be sold, me dont see the point as im never in a city to use electric.
 

mark61

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Cobalt is probably a bigger issue than Lithium as far as batteries are concerned.

There are Cobalt free Lithium batteries, but at the moment, they don't hold enough power and have a short life span.
 

ricc

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report in daily wail this morning on what boris is expected to announce , confirmed 2030, also mentioned 40 billion as the current road tax and fuel tax take, and also specifically referred to sale of cars....will leasing be a loophole
 

trevskoda

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Anyone for my old Scalextric cars. 🤔
Mind you electric cars are not new, yanks had them at beginning of last century for the girls as they could not use the hand crank.
 

barryd

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report in daily wail this morning on what boris is expected to announce , confirmed 2030, also mentioned 40 billion as the current road tax and fuel tax take, and also specifically referred to sale of cars....will leasing be a loophole
How are they going to make up for the massive amount of tax on petrol and diesel that will be lost? I heard talk the other day about toll charges being one possibility. Or pay per mile.
 

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