HYDROGEN ASSIST for Petrol or Diesel

[sparrks]

Going off on a tangent, why do very few petrol engines use Common Rail direct injection? Like the type commonly used in diesels. I know Mitsubishi used to use it

 

[Rapido]

Hydrogen drycells

I Colin

I have had a Hydrogen dry cell on four of my motorhome after going on a fitting course with Richard Bird, I now build and fit my own with improvements.

Just to give you an idea of the improvements in consumption on the first Autotrail 634lL 130 mulitjet engine, new in 2009 130multijet before I undertook the training I took my van to Stoke-on-Trent to have it remapped which was a waste of time and £400, I could not get more than 23mpg with the van being empty and just me in it,
After fitting my drycell I was getting 32mpg fully loaded.

On my brothers Autotrail on the 2.8jtd he was getting 35mpg.
All measurements where taken by starting with a full tank of fuel full to the brim drive as far as we could go on the way to the south of France, then refilling the tank to the again to the brim then calculating the mileage to work out the mpg on 4.52ltrs to the gallon.

Four MH latter I now have a Rapid 9048df A class and depending on my right foot and weather conditions I have as much as 42mpg and a good average of 38 mpg.

The other thing I get a good increases in power and an 80% decrease in fuel imitations, the funniest thing was watching the technician at the MOT test station trying to do the imitations test he was scratching his head it was only when he turned the machine down to the lowest levelled could he get a reading of none burnt fuel.

One last thing I only use 2liters of cheap bottled water to keep the cell running to Spain, the secret is a balance is amps used against litres of hydrogen made per minute
I get 12 litres per minute on 20 maps.
This can be improved by having an extra alternator fitted for cell supply only or adding 30% of veg oil to 70% of fuel if you can get it for less than the fuel.

I’m not righting this reply to sell or promote hydrogen on demand cells just giving some idea of the savings that can be achieved it one is fitted right.

Also I’ve tried making my own bio oil from chip oil but the cost of materials and time plus the mess just didn’t work for me.

Regards
Ray

 

[antiqueman]

give up but...

I read till about page thirteen with wine then gave up but what about arguement assist just put certain people in back of your shed and you get terrific energy. Now I am saying no more as sending idea to red bull or mclaren or whoever offers me most just waz certain people into fuel tank and it will go like rocket. Needs testing on rolling road as to how to control all this energy.:beer:

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

Its efficiency will depend on many factors, i.e. if its made in America it will be shockingly inefficient and probably make more noise than power, if its European or Japanese it will be a lot more efficient. As for wasted heat unfortunately loads.

Tell me about it.. but mine is very quiet, You come across as somebody with intelligence, so instead of thinking of why it can't work, go back to basics, and start thinking of how it can. There's a lot of energy going to waste, how could a small amount of Hydrogen introduced into the air intake improve efficiency.
I don't know the answers, I only know from a practical point of view it does,
Best wishes :drive:

 

[K9d]

I can understand how adding an extra combustible element, in this case Hydrogen, can change the characteristics of an engine, but I can't understand how the same engine can produce the Hydrogen using less energy to create it than the boost it gives to the engine.
I've read the thread on LPG assist for diesel engines and can understand how that could work, an extra combustible element is being introduced but the engine doesn't have to make the LPG.

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

I Colin

I have had a Hydrogen dry cell on four of my motorhome after going on a fitting course with Richard Bird, I now build and fit my own with improvements.

Just to give you an idea of the improvements in consumption on the first Autotrail 634lL 130 mulitjet engine, new in 2009 130multijet before I undertook the training I took my van to Stoke-on-Trent to have it remapped which was a waste of time and £400, I could not get more than 23mpg with the van being empty and just me in it,
After fitting my drycell I was getting 32mpg fully loaded.

On my brothers Autotrail on the 2.8jtd he was getting 35mpg.
All measurements where taken by starting with a full tank of fuel full to the brim drive as far as we could go on the way to the south of France, then refilling the tank to the again to the brim then calculating the mileage to work out the mpg on 4.52ltrs to the gallon.

Four MH latter I now have a Rapid 9048df A class and depending on my right foot and weather conditions I have as much as 42mpg and a good average of 38 mpg.

The other thing I get a good increases in power and an 80% decrease in fuel imitations, the funniest thing was watching the technician at the MOT test station trying to do the imitations test he was scratching his head it was only when he turned the machine down to the lowest levelled could he get a reading of none burnt fuel.

One last thing I only use 2liters of cheap bottled water to keep the cell running to Spain, the secret is a balance is amps used against litres of hydrogen made per minute
I get 12 litres per minute on 20 maps.
This can be improved by having an extra alternator fitted for cell supply only or adding 30% of veg oil to 70% of fuel if you can get it for less than the fuel.

I’m not righting this reply to sell or promote hydrogen on demand cells just giving some idea of the savings that can be achieved it one is fitted right.

Also I’ve tried making my own bio oil from chip oil but the cost of materials and time plus the mess just didn’t work for me.

Regards
Ray

Interesting!.. you are using a very high amperage, at the moment I am using 7.5Amps, I have no idea how much Hydrogen is being produced, I believe that you can reach a certain point where the you can up the amps but the gains are negligible.
Good Luck.

 

[Rapido]

The way it works, the hydrogen go in through the air intake which gives a brighter burn of fuel and stops build-up of carbon on the pistons, i.e. this increases the power reduces unburnt fuel coming out of the tail pipe we have all seen the soot on the tail pipe side of motorhomes this a result of unburnt fuel.

 

[trevskoda]

Going off on a tangent, why do very few petrol engines use Common Rail direct injection? Like the type commonly used in diesels. I know Mitsubishi used to use it

mercury and toyhatsu use it in there hpdi outboards,the hp is a small compressor which blowes in air around the injector spray to give a better burn to the stratafied fuel charge,plus its common rail injection used on four stroke and two stroke.

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

I can understand how adding an extra combustible element, in this case Hydrogen, can change the characteristics of an engine, but I can't understand how the same engine can produce the Hydrogen using less energy to create it than the boost it gives to the engine.
I've read the thread on LPG assist for diesel engines and can understand how that could work, an extra combustible element is being introduced but the engine doesn't have to make the LPG.

This is a link posted by Tezza which makes very interesting reading, I take most things with a pinch of salt, but never the less food for thought, well worth the full read.

http://www.eagle-research.com/erpdf/fs/HyZor/HyZorProofs/HyZorProofs110316.pdf

 

[Tbear]

I can see how adding a gas like Hydrogen to the mix could improve performance. What it may do to your engine ???. What I fail to understand is why you don't just have a cylinder of hydrogen. Surely if produced on an industrial scale, it would be cheaper and more efficient and you would have plenty available at times of high demand. Would your cell cope with the demand of a cold engine pulling a van up a steep hill.

I think Hydrogen is a wonderful clean fuel so I would love this to work but I have just seen too many magic cures in the past.

Richard

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

Hi Tbear, In fact the engine runs much cleaner, I decided to check the plugs the other day and couldn't believe how clean they were, and no it's not due to a weak mixture! Have a look at the following link about BG, very interesting. I too have seen about the magic magnets Etc. I had a V12 Jaguar XJS which didn't like me having fuel in the tank so emptied it rather quickly so I looked at various so called fuel savers, but soon came to the conclusion that they were just a scam.

http://www.eagle-research.com/erpdf/fs/HyZor/HyZorProofs/HyZorProofs110316.pdf

 

[Firefox]

The last sentence is telling. Hydrogen produced elsewhere and brought into an onboard tank does work, but the scamsters love to confuse people by claiming the miniscule quantities produced onboard is the same thing. They just fill the blurb with terms like "Hydrogen assist" or "Hydrogen power" and most people are not savvy enough to know the difference.

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

[No message]

 

[Tbear]

Hi Tbear, In fact the engine runs much cleaner, I decided to check the plugs the other day and couldn't believe how clean they were, and no it's not due to a weak mixture! Have a look at the following link about BG, very interesting. I too have seen about the magic magnets Etc. I had a V12 Jaguar XJS which didn't like me having fuel in the tank so emptied it rather quickly so I looked at various so called fuel savers, but soon came to the conclusion that they were just a scam.

http://www.eagle-research.com/erpdf/fs/HyZor/HyZorProofs/HyZorProofs110316.pdf

Hi colin,

I don't doubt that you get less muck produced and hydrogen contains no carbon but does it have an effect on the seals and gaskets or the bearings and metal surfaces. Do the sensors and thermocouples work as well. I am no engineer so I have no idea. Does it have an effect on Nitrous oxides and other pollutants. Does it have an effect on the particles produced to make them more or less irritant. Too many questions for my little brain.

Richard

 

[Tbear]

Oops, but to produce Hydrogen on industrial commercial scales requires hydrocarbons (fossil fuels) or electrolysis both manpower time inefficient nd crap goin up chimneys. Then there is the energy required to make it... fossil fuels nuclear etc. It doesn't occur naturally in nature for quick bottling. Nowt 4*free, this poor planet ! The marketing folks love clean fuel forgetting the interdependencies and the bigger picture unfortunately.

Chrz Mul.

Burning Hydrogen produces very little pollution so is clean.

The production of any energy source for a combustion engine is going to course pollution. If you produce it in small inefficient ways, it will then course more pollution. Imagine if we all had our own little Oil Refinery in our back garden. Silly I know but I am sure you get my point. If you produce your Hydrogen on a scale like you produce your Diesel then you can limit to an extent the pollution coursed.

You do not need to burn fossil fuels to produce it but that may be the cheapest in the longrun.

With the oil industry in crisis. The production of hydrogen may be a Godsend for the inter-dependencies.

The caveat here has to be the potential for Hydrogen to be dangerous.

Richard

 

[1807truckman]

Hydrogen assist

I've been following this thread with interest, I work for a large company that re-manufactures diesel engines and transmissions, mostly for heavy plant and railway use, one of our customers asked us to investigate this type of system along with the supplying company, we have a team of highly qualified engineers and technicians with many years experience in the diesel engine industry, the testing was to be carried out on our premises under controlled conditions, we allocated one test bed for this purpose, the first test was conducted with the standard engine as rebuilt by us, the results were taken after the usual run in period and at the eight pre-set power settings, the fuel usage was recorded as was the fuel return to tank. Then the HHO system was fitted, this caused a great amount of problems, they couldn't get the required amount of hydrogen production from their system so they did many modifications, uprating the electrical system being one, after almost three weeks of messing about the customer told the supplier to pack up as the results so far collected made the system not worth investing in and they were also worried about the fire/explosion risk involved in having hydrogen under a passenger carrying vehicle.
As a side note we also long term tested a catalitic system with another customer, fitted to three vehicles, after two years and 200,000 miles each the systems were removed as there had been no recordable improvement in fuel consumption compared to an un-modified engine. So in my opinion these systems are a waste of money.

 

[Tbear]

Sustainable Energy - Without the Hot Air by Prof David JC MacKay

I have the paper copy but is available on line, wonderful book full of accurate, easy to understand, O-Level 'ish, facts. Page 129 (upto 131) is interesting ref Hydrogen and Energy in/ out.

Ch 20 Page 129: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air | David MacKay.

I also like the bit about TV and Mobile Phone Chargers being on standby - save the planet - Not - turn em off to stop fires, but save the planet, pleeease - page 68 & then 114 are wonderfully enlightening. Bailing out the Titanic with a teaspoon is a corker of an analogy. This should be taught in schools IMHO and to sensationalist grabbing journalists who know nothing about the subject they're reporting on, Grrrrr.

Onwards

Mul

The prof does seem to sound a little bias but he quotes figures that I cannot argue with. However he does not seem to talk much about the effect of adding just a little hydrogen to a Diesel engine or did I miss it.

He is bit dismissive of hydrogen but it is a tech which the boffins have been playing with for a long time. It has never flourished but neither has it gone away. With the advances in new tech and the rate we are burning fossil fuels? I seem to remember reading once that Hydrogen is the most prevalent element in the universe. Who knows what we will or will not be allowed to drive in 20 years time. Will private leisure vehicles be banned all together??

Richard

 

[invalid]

Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way, soon we may not have to extract Hydrogen from water, if fracking takes off there will be enough gas in our water to truly run our cars on water. ( Hopefully just joking?) :mad2:

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

David, you take yourself too seriously, the first bit was a bit of humor on my part, the :lol-061: was a clue.
How did I make "knowing about a wide range of subjects." a negative, because of your knowledge about a wide range of subjects, I though that, like myself you had come across quite a few "experts" who were full of BS, I will be amazed if you say you haven't.
as for Hydrogen Assist, I have based the information on personal experience, not on something I have read, or theorized about. As to whether it improves things by using the gas produced to act as a catalyst, or just causes an improved burn I do not know, BUT it works for me.
Regarding the Otto cycle I thought all the teams in the Tour de France used them.

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

Hi colin,

I don't doubt that you get less muck produced and hydrogen contains no carbon but does it have an effect on the seals and gaskets or the bearings and metal surfaces. Do the sensors and thermocouples work as well. I am no engineer so I have no idea. Does it have an effect on Nitrous oxides and other pollutants. Does it have an effect on the particles produced to make them more or less irritant. Too many questions for my little brain.

Richard

Apparently the exhaust gasses are much cleaner, not too sure about Nitrous oxides though. as for the sensors they work as intended but the o2 sensor could cause problems, the system I have fitted, and I quote, taken from the De Verde facebook page.
"Since January, all our hydrogen kits are running as HHHN, not HHO. This is because HHHN does not trip exhaust sensors, the unique electrolyte we developed allows hydrogen to be produced in larger amounts than HHO, yet reduces the amount of oxygen produced. This is resulting in some amazing mpg figures, with increased torque. In short, our cells are the most advanced available!
To order yours contact us :
Home - Hydrogen Hybrids "