NYCC are readvertising their ban on overnight Motorhome Parking

[Deleted member 967]

Proposed Prohibition of Overnight Parking for Motor Caravans (Re-advertisement) - Various Roads in Scarborough/Cayton/Filey/Sandsend/Whitby

Copies of the relevant documents can be viewed on the County Council’s website (Resident - North Yorkshire County Council) under “Transport and Streets - Parking” and “Consultations”.

Please note that any objections or representations should be sent in writing to “Area 3 Whitby Highways Office, Whitby Highways Depot, Discovery Way, Whitby, North Yorkshire YO22 4PZ” or by e-mail to area3.whitby@northyorks.gov.uk and be received by 6 March 2015.

 

[Jimhunterj4]

Wonder how this is going to affect us now John, keep up the good work

 

[whitevanwoman]

I'm curious as to whether live-in vans, ie, vans used for the purpose of sleeping and eating, and insured as modified vans and not registered as motor caravans, will be affected.

Does this apply to any class of vehicle or simply to motor caravans?

If it applies to motor caravans only, it could deter self builders from reregistering a van as a motor caravan.

If it applies to all class of vehicles, how will it be policed / monitored or will arrangements be made to simply block access during certain hours?

A right can of worms.

It seems crazy that councils are wasting resources on this fairly minor issue, resources which could be far better spent in the provision of social care, child protection, keeping coucik tax bills down etc.

BTW, these are rhetorical questions, as who knows, I doubt the council in question has even considered such issues.

 

[Talbot]

Is it legal to discriminate?

 

[QFour]

Sent an Email

Dear Sir / Madam

Perhaps you should follow the lead of other towns like Canterbury and all the small towns and villages in France and encorage Motorhomes rather than banning them from parking. Do you not realise how much Motorhomes spend when they visit. They don't want to be stuck out of town on a £30 a night site.

Stop them parking and the local businesses will suffer.

Kind Regards Ian

 

[Talbot]

Maybe they should look at this.

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums...t/32742-motor-home-aires-set-come-dorset.html

There should always be consultation (with all parties concerned) with such sensitive issues and often a compromise can be found or negotiated.

 

[Deleted member 43466]

Dear Sir / Madam

Perhaps you should follow the lead of other towns like Canterbury and all the small towns and villages in France and encorage Motorhomes rather than banning them from parking. Do you not realise how much Motorhomes spend when they visit. They don't want to be stuck out of town on a £30 a night site.

Stop them parking and the local businesses will suffer.

Kind Regards Ian

i was wilding at alnmouth in northumberland in the car park on the beach
in the morning the attendant came for the 3 pound charge and said you should not stay overnight
i said the camper vans bring trade to the village why chase it away.She said they are not bothered about the
extra trade as they are busy enough without it so i have not been back just take my money elsewhere

 

[nick23]

I'm curious as to whether live-in vans, ie, vans used for the purpose of sleeping and eating, and insured as modified vans and not registered as motor caravans, will be affected.

Does this apply to any class of vehicle or simply to motor caravans?

If it applies to motor caravans only, it could deter self builders from reregistering a van as a motor caravan.

If it applies to all class of vehicles, how will it be policed / monitored or will arrangements be made to simply block access during certain hours?

A right can of worms.

It seems crazy that councils are wasting resources on this fairly minor issue, resources which could be far better spent in the provision of social care, child protection, keeping coucik tax bills down etc.

BTW, these are rhetorical questions, as who knows, I doubt the council in question has even considered such issues.

“Motor Caravan” has the meaning assigned to it by Directive 2007/46/EC of the
European Parliament and of the Council dated 5 September 2007 and reproduced below:-
“A vehicle of category M with living accommodation space which contains the following
equipment as a minimum:
(a) seats and table;
(b) sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats;
(c) cooking facilities;
(d) storage facilities.
This equipment shall be rigidly fixed to the living compartment.
However, the table may be designed to be easily removable.”

 

[Firefox]

I would urge people to take 10 minutes to send an objection in writing.

The more objections they get, the more difficult it makes their process.

If everyone here sends an objection they will get thousands. It may derail the process. This is where you have a real chance to stop their illegal activity. Far far more chance than those online petitions for aires etc. They often try to steamroller these bylaws through on the basis "there were very few objections". If they get 100's and 1000's of objections they will have to re-look at it.

One can protest all one likes on a forum - they don't care about that. Look at the thousands of words and hours of time people spend on making posts here.

Invest 10 minutes on 50 words where it will count.

 

[whitevanwoman]

null

Fully aware of what constitutes a motor caravan and that my van cannot be registered as a motor caravan because it lacks the elements listed.

The question was, however, whether the same will apply to live in modified vans which are used as campervans bit not registered as motor caravans. Such vans are perfectly legal so long as their insurer covers them for the various activities in the van eg sleeping, cooking etc.

It does indeed seem to discriminate against the motorcaravanner and not against other vehicles which may be that for the same purpose.

 

[Firefox]

I am pretty sure the wording will apply to modified vans too Any vehicle used for sleeping in will usually come under the legislation. When Cornwall council tried a similar exercise they worded it so motorcaravans or any vehicle used for overnight living was covered. Just from memory, but they even quoted the example of an estate car with an airbed in the back as falling foul of the bylaws.

Someone on Scarborough council has links with a person who owns an expensive campsite. Usual motives govern - local authority corruption and self interest. Illegal discrimination against people with vans, and less well off people follows.

Edit: I think they have it covered as I checked the full draft document:

http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/media/...der-2015/pdf/Scarborough_Draft_Order_2015.pdf

“Parking Place" means an area on a highway described or designated as a parking place in The Schedule to this Order.

8 No person shall use any part of a parking place or any vehicle parked in a parking place (a) for sleeping or camping or cooking; or(b) for the purpose of servicing or washing any vehicle or part thereof other than is reasonably necessary to enable that vehicle to depart from the parking place.

 

[Winker]

If it's illegal then it will be easy to stop surely?

 

[nick23]

Fully aware of what constitutes a motor caravan and that my van cannot be registered as a motor caravan because it lacks the elements listed.

The question was, however, whether the same will apply to live in modified vans which are used as campervans bit not registered as motor caravans. Such vans are perfectly legal so long as their insurer covers them for the various activities in the van eg sleeping, cooking etc.

It does indeed seem to discriminate against the motorcaravanner and not against other vehicles which may be that for the same purpose.

This legislation is proposed to apply to Motor Caravans (only) as defined by the list I quoted. So if it has a sleeping and cooking and a table then as far as they are concerned it's a Motor Caravan. I was not trying to tell you what a registered Motorcaravan is, but quoting directly their definition as defined here
http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/media/...der-2015/pdf/Scarborough_Draft_Order_2015.pdf so it will apply to modified vans (or indeed any campervan). :idea-007::yeahthat:

 

[Deleted member 967]

I'm curious as to whether live-in vans, ie, vans used for the purpose of sleeping and eating, and insured as modified vans and not registered as motor caravans, will be affected.

Does this apply to any class of vehicle or simply to motor caravans?

If it applies to motor caravans only, it could deter self builders from reregistering a van as a motor caravan.

If it applies to all class of vehicles, how will it be policed / monitored or will arrangements be made to simply block access during certain hours?

A right can of worms.

It seems crazy that councils are wasting resources on this fairly minor issue, resources which could be far better spent in the provision of social care, child protection, keeping coucik tax bills down etc.

BTW, these are rhetorical questions, as who knows, I doubt the council in question has even considered such issues.

They have been very specific in defining M1 (Motor Caravan). This was because Motorhome users kept writing to them insisting that Motor Caravans were M1. It shows the quality of the officers drafting these regulations.

Quote from DfT “There are a number of vehicles that are not registered as M1(Special Purpose) Motor Caravans, that meet the same specification, but are registered under different categories due to emissions and other reasons”.

DfT statistics (end September 2015) for Motor Caravan categorise them into "Missing" M1, N2, N3 and "other". Of the 256,000 vehicles registered as Motor Caravans only 12,000 M1 as counted.

Mike Dark, Vehicles Database Manager at DfT wrote in response to my query

I understand your confusion about the category types. The category type was only collected from 2001 onwards and hence older vehicles and imported vehicles have the category missing. The category listed is that which was recorded when the vehicle was type approved at the point of first registration. There are a small number of vehicles that have a category type that is not M1, N1 or N2 – these are quite possibly errors. I have listed these as ‘others’.


Once a vehicle is categorised at initial registration it retains that category for its lifetime. So if an N goods vehicle is converted to a Motor Caravan, it becomes a Category N, Motor Caravan. Used imports are not categorised nor were vehicles before these statistics began, so there are 221,000 "Missing" Motor Caravans and 150 "Other" Motor Caravans. where DVLA errors have occurred. 20,000 N1 Motor Caravans and 2,600 N2 Motor Caravans. (Figures rounded)

This would be something that would have to be battled out in court if a PNC was challenged. NYCC would have to prove the vehicle was an M1 Motor Caravan.

I would not use this argument in a reply to the consultation as it would give them the chance to close a potential loophole.

 

[Deleted member 967]

This legislation is proposed to apply to Motor Caravans (only) as defined by the list I quoted. So if it has a sleeping and cooking and a table then as far as they are concerned it's a Motor Caravan. I was not trying to tell you what a registered Motorcaravan is, but quoting directly their definition as defined here
http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/media/...der-2015/pdf/Scarborough_Draft_Order_2015.pdf so it will apply to modified vans (or indeed any campervan). :idea-007::yeahthat:

Hi Nick as I said in a previous post they have been very specific in specifying M1 Motor Caravans, not just Motor Caravans.

 

[Deleted member 967]

I am pretty sure the wording will apply to modified vans too Any vehicle used for sleeping in will usually come under the legislation. When Cornwall council tried a similar exercise they worded it so motorcaravans or any vehicle used for overnight living was covered. Just from memory, but they even quoted the example of an estate car with an airbed in the back as falling foul of the bylaws.

Someone on Scarborough council has links with a person who owns an expensive campsite. Usual motives govern - local authority corruption and self interest. Illegal discrimination against people with vans, and less well off people follows.

Edit: I think they have it covered as I checked the full draft document:

http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/media/...der-2015/pdf/Scarborough_Draft_Order_2015.pdf

“Parking Place" means an area on a highway described or designated as a parking place in The Schedule to this Order.

8 No person shall use any part of a parking place or any vehicle parked in a parking place (a) for sleeping or camping or cooking; or(b) for the purpose of servicing or washing any vehicle or part thereof other than is reasonably necessary to enable that vehicle to depart from the parking place.

You are correct that the ban on sleeping, camping or cooking still applies. However if I had a campervan as my sole means of transport and I decided that I wished to stay in that area for the night and use a Hotel or B&B I would still fall foul of this proposed TRO as it is not the fact that the vehicle is occupied or not but that it is equipped as a camper van that makes it against the regulation to park between 23:00 and 06:00.

As for the argument that it will prevent space blocking. There is nothing to stop a user staying to 22:59 and driving off and returning at 06:01. They however are still forbidden to sleep or cook during the time they are parked. Will this also be applied to drivers of other vehicles? or simply Motor Caravans. Time to use cameras as evidence of discrimination!

 

[whitevanwoman]

They have been very specific in defining M1 (Motor Caravan). This was because Motorhome users kept writing to them insisting that Motor Caravans were M1. It shows the quality of the officers drafting these regulations.

Quote from DfT “There are a number of vehicles that are not registered as M1(Special Purpose) Motor Caravans, that meet the same specification, but are registered under different categories due to emissions and other reasons”.

DfT statistics (end September 2015) for Motor Caravan categorise them into "Missing" M1, N2, N3 and "other". Of the 256,000 vehicles registered as Motor Caravans only 12,000 M1 as counted.

Once a vehicle is categorised at initial registration it retains that category for its lifetime. So if an N goods vehicle is converted to a Motor Caravan, it becomes a Category N, Motor Caravan. Used imports are not categorised nor were vehicles before these statistics began, so there are 221,000 "Missing" Motor Caravans and 150 "Other" Motor Caravans. where DVLA errors have occurred. 20,000 N1 Motor Caravans and 2,600 N2 Motor Caravans. (Figures rounded)

This would be something that would have to be battled out in court if a PNC was challenged. NYCC would have to prove the vehicle was an M1 Motor Caravan.

I would not use this argument in a reply to the consultation as it would give them the chance to close a potential loophole.

Thanks for clarifying what I suspected, that this is potentially discrimination against a certain group of motorists, purely because of the class of vehicle and not because of the actual activity which they (and other vehicles) may be engaged in (sleeping, eating etc). So in effect, unless they (NYCC) specify a prohibited activity and extend the prohibition to all classes of vehicle, this means that lorries, vans and cars (ie vehicles who can not use local campsites) may park overnight and engage in sleeping and eating in their vehicles, but not a motorcaravan. I wonder what the position is to trailers and caravans.

Another thought occurs to me - if it is possible to reregister a self build from a van to a motorcaravan by meeting the conditions required, is it possible to reregister a motorcaravan as a van by removing one of those conditions so that it no longer meets the criteria, ie removing cooking equipment and replacing it with a camping stove which is not secured to the vehicle?

Hopefully NYCC won't have the gumption to check this website and this thread so the loophole will remain.

Edit - crossed with above post which answers my question ... so in effect they plan to ban one single class of vehicle together with certain activities which apply to all classes of vehicles, ie eating, sleeping, washing, servicing and overnight parking.

So my next question is: why bother banning class M1 motorcaravans, if they are banning the activities? - surely by not allowing these certain activities regardless of class of vehicle, there is no need to specifically ban motorcaravans.

 

[Firefox]

I think you are right, it is poorly put together legislation just like last time when the excuse was about deposition of waste and highway cleaning.

My guess is first, they try to discriminate against motorcaravans which they can do as those are more easily defined and perhaps covers 90% of their target. Then they add other clauses in an attempt to cover loopholes such as "cooking or sleeping in any vehicle".

Other local authorities in seaside towns are not introducing this discrimination in this draconian way. Why should Scarborough be any different? There are other forces at work. Pure and simple it is campsite owners with influence on the council trying to to drive this through out of self interest

 

[Debs]

If Joe Bloggs or his missus can park their Range Rover, or Reliant Robin, or whatever vehicle, anywhere public, as long as they are not causing an obstruction, then for them that have the power to say that I can't park because I might sleep in it, is to me, Blatent discrimination and misuse of their powers! I pay my road tax, my vehicle has an MOT certificate, and I am insured. So with me it's business as usual, well it will be when the weather gets a tad warmer so that I can get on with my conversion.:camper:

 

[Winker]

Thanks for clarifying what I suspected, that this is potentially discrimination against a certain group of motorists, purely because of the class of vehicle and not because of the actual activity which they (and other vehicles) may be engaged in (sleeping, eating etc). So in effect, unless they (NYCC) specify a prohibited activity and extend the prohibition to all classes of vehicle, this means that lorries, vans and cars (ie vehicles who can not use local campsites) may park overnight and engage in sleeping and eating in their vehicles, but not a motorcaravan. I wonder what the position is to trailers and caravans.

Another thought occurs to me - if it is possible to reregister a self build from a van to a motorcaravan by meeting the conditions required, is it possible to reregister a motorcaravan as a van by removing one of those conditions so that it no longer meets the criteria, ie removing cooking equipment and replacing it with a camping stove which is not secured to the vehicle?

Hopefully NYCC won't have the gumption to check this website and this thread so the loophole will remain.

Edit - crossed with above post which answers my question ... so in effect they plan to ban one single class of vehicle together with certain activities which apply to all classes of vehicles, ie eating, sleeping, washing, servicing and overnight parking.

So my next question is: why bother banning class M1 motorcaravans, if they are banning the activities? - surely by not allowing these certain activities regardless of class of vehicle, there is no need to specifically ban motorcaravans.

Height barriers don't care if you have a fitted bed or not.