Benefit cuts proposed.

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I usually agree with your contributions, Channa, but I have to point out the nonsense of the situation you describe here. Why should any family (royal or otherwise) have the choice whether or not to pay tax? We should ALL be subject to the same rules, whether we are Queen or Northerner's gardener.

In fairness john I never volunteered one way or the other that the queen pay taxes.

My understanding is that she chose to aware perhaps of public scrutiny

But the fact remains she didn't have to..but ultimately chose to which is the right thing to do

Perhaps a monarch who either is in touch or listens to advisors with an open mind.

I don't think I wIll get the knighthood or tea at the palace for that matter...nay mind always a curry with the scrounging pakis of Bradford...btw the taxi drivers know me an my sense of humour ........
They don't understand me at times....travelling in caravan on wheels....Yup rajpoon Shipley any time
Channa
 
TBH i'm not too fussed on the Royal family, however, Charlie is a good lad, he does a lot of work for the young jobless, homeless ect, and wills will make the best king ever, he's a darling.
 
You could fit a lot of homeless unmarried mothers into all those palaces and estates.

Then of course there is the Duchy of Cornwall. Has anyone been watching the programme about George v and his PR job to make the royal family more acceptable before he went the way of the other royals in Europe?
 
Scottish Law Reporter: Hundreds of Scots DEAD as FOI reveals thousands die in UK as a result of Tory-Libdem benefits ‘tests’ by ATOS Healthcare


Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: My ill wife had to fight for benefits up until she died

Rightsnet discussion forum | Coma patient fit for work

THE FULL FACTS • View topic - He's blind, deaf and can't say a word. But fit for work

There's loads more, but to be quite honest i just can't be bothered a couple of days after having my sinuses drilled out to have to hold up my specs cos i can't stand them being on my nose just to look for and post links to prove that I'm not some troll or baffoon making up tales.

This is the second time I've been pulled up on a post Ive done.....I would hope there isn't a third cos I find it kinda rude..!!

Well, this is how I understand your links. It actually turns out that in both these cases ATOS did not, as you claimed, assess as being fit for work, people who were in a coma or were blind, deaf and being fed through a tube. It is the DWP who, not having received the form necessary to continue benefits, has told the patient (or his carer) that, unless the form is received, he will be considered fit for work.

This is how thousands of people were taken off the list of those receiving benefits that they weren't entitled to. Many people were claiming benefits when they were fit to work. They were sent assessment forms in order to satisfy the authorities that they were actually ill. If they didn't return the form they were considered fit for work, and many didn't return the forms because the knew that therer was really nothing wrong with them and that they wouldn't pass the following examination.

You quite clearly suggested that the system was saying that people with severe medical conditions were being assessed as fit for work. This is simply not the case! They never got to the assessment page and this is all about paperwork.

The one about hundreds of Scots dying is another piece of total rubbish, the title of which suggests that sick people are being forced back to work and that it's killing them. This is actually about people with some medical problem who have been assessed as being fit for some kind of work and again, what's wrong with that? In a year hundreds of people on the list died. But so what? Thousands of people in Scotland died that year and how many people died who were already employed and in work?

So to sum up, your links quite clearly prove that ATOS is not demanding that coma patients go back to work, it is not assessing deaf and blind people who are being fed through a tube and insisting that they should get a job, it turns out that these people were never even assessed and it's all about most of them not completing the paperwork which is necessary for them to continue claiming benefit.

What is your answer? If someone begins to claim benefits because they have a medical problem, should they be allowed to carry on claiming for the rest of their life, or should they be subject to regular assessment to ensure that they haven't improved and are now fit for work?

However, I'd really like to know more about your scandalous claim that 32 people a week are committing suicide because their benefits have been cut. Let's have proper evidence for this, not some left-wing blogger spouting unsubstantiated tripe. Once again, I simply do not believe it!
 
Well, this is how I understand your links. It actually turns out that in both these cases ATOS did not, as you claimed, assess as being fit for work, people who were in a coma or were blind, deaf and being fed through a tube. It is the DWP who, not having received the form necessary to continue benefits, has told the patient (or his carer) that, unless the form is received, he will be considered fit for work.

This is how thousands of people were taken off the list of those receiving benefits that they weren't entitled to. Many people were claiming benefits when they were fit to work. They were sent assessment forms in order to satisfy the authorities that they were actually ill. If they didn't return the form they were considered fit for work, and many didn't return the forms because the knew that therer was really nothing wrong with them and that they wouldn't pass the following examination.

You quite clearly suggested that the system was saying that people with severe medical conditions were being assessed as fit for work. This is simply not the case! They never got to the assessment page and this is all about paperwork.

The one about hundreds of Scots dying is another piece of total rubbish, the title of which suggests that sick people are being forced back to work and that it's killing them. This is actually about people with some medical problem who have been assessed as being fit for some kind of work and again, what's wrong with that? In a year hundreds of people on the list died. But so what? Thousands of people in Scotland died that year and how many people died who were already employed and in work?

So to sum up, your links quite clearly prove that ATOS is not demanding that coma patients go back to work, it is not assessing deaf and blind people who are being fed through a tube and insisting that they should get a job, it turns out that these people were never even assessed and it's all about most of them not completing the paperwork which is necessary for them to continue claiming benefit.

What is your answer? If someone begins to claim benefits because they have a medical problem, should they be allowed to carry on claiming for the rest of their life, or should they be subject to regular assessment to ensure that they haven't improved and are now fit for work?

However, I'd really like to know more about your scandalous claim that 32 people a week are committing suicide because their benefits have been cut. Let's have proper evidence for this, not some left-wing blogger spouting unsubstantiated tripe. Once again, I simply do not believe it!

You are entitled go your views but Im not prepared waste my time to look out even more links for you to still virtually call them lies. I suggest you get a Twitter account....look for me on there Im...afl2277.....and i will pass you on to the doctors, nurses, carers, MPs, lawyers etc that Im getting the links from. Then you could really enjoy yourself by calling a lot of people liars and not just me !

And i hope to goodness that even you dont have anyone in your family that suddenly becomes disabled because it will obviously be more of a shock to you in more ways than one.


Scandalous and unsubstantiated tripe? Where do you except me to find proof that would be acceptable to you.....go out and find these people, get access to their Atos reports and post them here? You asked for proof and Ive posted quite acceptable links.

I was pulled to bits over a leaking motorhome post and let it go rather than cause bother.
Now here is the second quite frankly rude post aimed at me in two days.

Im just now starting to wonder exactly what Ive bothered paying £15 for ! !
 
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I think the reality irrespective of who is residing in downing street....is as a country the welfare system as we know it has become unsustainable.

Ageing population, putting pressure on pensions, a large part of the community the young mainly disenfranchised by previous policies........irrespective of the colour of government have left us in a mess...and the wheels of industry to dig us out of it are flat.....recessions. foreign competition etc.

Any government I think has to radically overhaul so many things to keep us in the running.

The problem with change is it ultimately effects folk and puts them often in a situation of loss.
Or at least perceived loss.

For those who haven't , visit harehills in Leeds, the manor Sheffield as examples,the desperation and sense of hope as all but vanished.

There will be some pain before we dig ourselves out of this One

Channa

Part of the problem is Government, be it local or national burying their head in the sand.

Over 25 years a go, the government were being warned of the ageing population and the financial issues that were in store, along with housing, youth unemployment etc, yet they did very little about it.

Short term fire fighting has always been the modus operandi in many cases. After all, an election is always on the horizon

I have virtually no faith in national government, who plough on regardless keeping their buddies sweet. Whilst local, national and international finances are not the same as a household budget, if the average Joe in the street gets concerned with say the massive rise in the cost of property, as a result in many ways of the financial institutions lack of common sense in lending money, why doesn't someone up there think "this is going to end up in a pile of sh*t" and do something about it, they were quick enough when said financial institutions fell into the sh*t they created. As I said, firefighting and keeping their buddies sweet.

I too have worked in a wide range of employment, from project managing multi million pound jobs to labouring, so have a good perspective of the good and bad.

Having worked with local government and health services, I am still baffled as to why a simple project becomes overly complex, with enough paper to deforest a small county and costs a fortune.

Part of the problem is that "Qualifications" have more meaning than the ability to actually "Do" the job, this is becoming more prevalent in both local government and health. About 25 years a go, I was contracted to a bank in London to "get them out of the sh*t, literally what I was told!" The IT director introduced me to his team to relocate IT from 5 sites into one, there were firsts galore, masters and doctorates, in the team, each one of them could write academic gobbledegook till it came out of their ears, but virtually all of them had no practical experience at all. At this point I realised that "Educated" did not always equate to "Intelligent" and certainly common sense was very thin on the ground.

Yes, there are some very capable people who have gone through our education system, but I've also met some incredible people who can just "Do things" with their hands and brains.

As qualifications alone are now being used as a filter rather than the ability to actually do the job, here is a major problem, we are placing the qualified in positions where they have to think in practical terms, something they don't teach at Uni!! (probably because the very lecturers haven't actually "done it" in the real world!" or if they tried, they were so poor they decided to teach.

Yes, I'm generalising a lot, but it's been my experience that I'm not far from the truth.
 
You are entitled go your views but Im not prepared waste my time to look out even more links for you to still virtually call them lies. I suggest you get a Twitter account....look for me on there Im...afl2277.....and i will pass you on to the doctors, nurses, carers, MPs, lawyers etc that Im getting the links from. Then you could really enjoy yourself by calling a lot of people liars and not just me !

And i hope to goodness that even you dont have anyone in your family that suddenly becomes disabled because it will obviously be more of a shock to you in more ways than one.


Scandalous and unsubstantiated tripe? I was pulled to bits over a leaking motorhome post and let it go rather than cause bother. Now here is the second quite frankly rude post aimed at me in two days.

Im just now starting to wonder exactly what Ive bothered paying £15 for ! !

You have no one to blame but yourself if you insist on publishing unsubstantiated tripe which has no truth whatsoever. You claim that 32 people a week are committing suicide because they've been refused benefits. This is untrue and perhaps if you were to obtain your information from sources other than disgruntled NHS employees on Twitter, you'd be more accurate.

When you get down to it, this is nothing to do with a cruel and uncaring organisation denying benefits to people who, quite clearly, are entitled to them. It's about poor administration and paperwork, often by civil servants who are probably card-carrying members of the Labour Party. It's about claimants themselves who fail to send in the forms and do their bit to ensure that they carry on receiving benefits.

I have no objection whatsoever to genuine case receiving invalidity benefits for the rest of their lives but, I ask you again, do you think it right that once a person has been approved for benefits, that he or she should remain on them for life without any periodic checks that their condition may have improved or even vanished?

Finally, please don't whinge just because some people have disagreed with you. It's not being rude, it's challenging unsubstantiated and in some cases, untrue claims that you have made. I am not suggesting for one minute that you yourself have lied, only that you are guilty of propagating ludicrous 'facts' that you have picked up from various sources. Anyway, I'll give you credit for a whole new theory 'It's on Twitter, so it must be true!' God help us all!
 
The only problem is really that there are some who are registered as disabled who really are not !
We all know at least one aia think in our lives but most of us probably know more than one !
I think maybe the term disabled is used in the wrong way these days as some are really only ill or slightly impaired not disabled as most think of the term ?????
The thing noone is picking up on is who is going to pay for all these people and all the pensions not for today but in 20 to 30 years time and beyond ?
It really annoys me to hear todays pensioners moaning as they are some of the most affluent members of society and will be some of the last to receive such generous pensions and short working lives compared to the kids of today !
The old statement of I have worked all my life and paid in makes me laugh too as most have never paid in enough to cover their own costs if you did the sums ?????

Are you taking away the Pensioners right to be grumpy????

I dooooon't belieeeeeve it. :mad:
 
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Assumptive David, where does it state genuine cases end up with more money?

For what it is worth I agree unless obvious to the contradict, a claimant should be reviewed.

Channa
 
Wait till more becomes common knowledge.

You no doubt all saw the police protest in London over pensions....well of course you would have done cos it was covered by the media.

Ask yourselves what happened when hundreds of wheelchair users protested in London a couple of months before that. But you wouldn't have seen anything about that cos it wasn't on any of the news channels. They were protesting about the savage welfare cuts.

And shoot me down when I mention that a person is deemed no longer to be 'disabled' just because they are in a wheelchair or because they have lost limbs.

Such a lot is not yet public knowledge, links are there for a short while then taken down again. A friend is about to send me a You Tube link that has been taken down once but sneekily put back on, have'nt seen it yet.

It might be interesting with talk of 'lefties' or 'righties'....if there is such a thing as a righty....that the Labour party started the ATOS fiasco going and the Tories gave carried it on. I care not who is running it, as I find all parties to be as bad as each other with lies and deceit, and have no political favourites.

Me, I got my ATOS letter this morning,,,,yes Im one of the scroungers that should get off my backside and stop being a drain on the taxpayer.....that would be like the taxpayer that i myself was for 40 hard working years.

If anyone on the planet could fix me so I could get just one good year of earning and having a purpose before i retire next year then I would welcome it. At 48, having been made redundant and thrown onto the scrap heap I retrained as an HGV driver.....so many agencies crying out for class 1 drivers and I thought i was good for years. With health starting to fail I had to give it up, and it broke my heart, and in an effort go keep working I started my own business. Eventually that had to go, and I lost thousands. Looking back, thousands that would have bought me a very nice camper. Did I choose the camper or work? Work of course. Hard work bought me my house. Hard work bought me everything I have. And does anyone think that I would rather be in constant pain, no life, bored to death, ready to have to now after 40yrs of paying into thd system fight for a pitance to live on........or do you think Id rather have a purpose, a reason to get up in a morning, some self respect and good money coming in again.

I dont know how folks go on that live on benefits for ever. I certainly couldn't and damn well won't be put through untold stress in a few weeks. Because not only did I work hard, but I planned various things for retirement time.

Its not me that I need to fight for, cos I have enough in place from the past to see me right. Its others me and loads of other are fighting for.
 
Wait till more becomes common knowledge.

You no doubt all saw the police protest in London over pensions....well of course you would have done cos it was covered by the media.

Ask yourselves what happened when hundreds of wheelchair users protested in London a couple of months before that. But you wouldn't have seen anything about that cos it wasn't on any of the news channels. They were protesting about the savage welfare cuts.

And shoot me down when I mention that a person is deemed no longer to be 'disabled' just because they are in a wheelchair or because they have lost limbs.

Such a lot is not yet public knowledge, links are there for a short while then taken down again. A friend is about to send me a You Tube link that has been taken down once but sneekily put back on, have'nt seen it yet.

It might be interesting with talk of 'lefties' or 'righties'....if there is such a thing as a righty....that the Labour party started the ATOS fiasco going and the Tories gave carried it on. I care not who is running it, as I find all parties to be as bad as each other with lies and deceit, and have no political favourites.

Me, I got my ATOS letter this morning,,,,yes Im one of the scroungers that should get off my backside and stop being a drain on the taxpayer.....that would be like the taxpayer that i myself was for 40 hard working years.

If anyone on the planet could fix me so I could get just one good year of earning and having a purpose before i retire next year then I would welcome it. At 48, having been made redundant and thrown onto the scrap heap I retrained as an HGV driver.....so many agencies crying out for class 1 drivers and I thought i was good for years. With health starting to fail I had to give it up, and it broke my heart, and in an effort go keep working I started my own business. Eventually that had to go, and I lost thousands. Looking back, thousands that would have bought me a very nice camper. Did I choose the camper or work? Work of course. Hard work bought me my house. Hard work bought me everything I have. And does anyone think that I would rather be in constant pain, no life, bored to death, ready to have to now after 40yrs of paying into thd system fight for a pitance to live on........or do you think Id rather have a purpose, a reason to get up in a morning, some self respect and good money coming in again.

I dont know how folks go on that live on benefits for ever. I certainly couldn't and damn well won't be put through untold stress in a few weeks. Because not only did I work hard, but I planned various things for retirement time.

Its not me that I need to fight for, cos I have enough in place from the past to see me right. Its others me and loads of other are fighting for.

Hi Ange

i have pressed the like button not that i like what is happening to you but some of your other points.

The trouble with some on here they are obviously wealthy as they state that in some of their posts, i get sick of hearing one member bang on about how you should re mortgage your property to start a business, and how simple it is, well its not that simple when you have to sell your home to provide care for your elderly father with Alzheimers, who has been turned down by the state, the very state that he contributed into for all his working life, some people really don't know about life, they can talk clever, but they are just words, you are a nice caring person, maybe you got nowt, but at least your not rude and aggressive like some on here.
 
I try not to be aggressive but the last few days haven't been good, and to be honest I shouldn't have bitten.

In my twenties, when I lost 2 babies and the father went, I thought it was the end of the world. Sad to say that those events set me up to be secure now, because if Id have been bringing children up etc I couldn't have done the financial things I did.

The 80s was a boom time for share dealing....and I dabbled enough to make enough to put down half the cost of my house as deposit. Then I worked my butt off to pay off the rest. I threw spare money into pensions and onto the mortgage and dabbled a bit more until the market became unstable. I virtually did my little house up myself, coming from a family of tradesmen Id learnt a lot from them, and I had a heady mix of full time work, carer for my Mum and bricklaying, plastering, building a kitchen, plumbing and landscaping a building plot sized garden for years.

The HGV on good agency rates brought me in just over £100 per day....being on my own I was happy to do hours that the married drivers couldn't do....and now I would only need to be doing 2or3 days a week to live nicely.

Plans eh. Some come good, but them some force somewhere judges that one needs to have ones wings clipped and half the plans fall apart.
 
man plans,god laughs.did you see the article about suicidal job seekers upsetting staff at job centres in private eye ?load of lies probably
 
You have no one to blame but yourself if you insist on publishing unsubstantiated tripe which has no truth whatsoever.............

Finally, please don't whinge just because some people have disagreed with you. It's not being rude, it's challenging unsubstantiated and in some cases, untrue claims that you have made. I am not suggesting for one minute that you yourself have lied, only that you are guilty of propagating ludicrous 'facts' that you have picked up from various sources. Anyway, I'll give you credit for a whole new theory 'It's on Twitter, so it must be true!' God help us all!

Some people don't feel they have the aggressive style of conversation to reply to being talked down to in the same way. Perhaps a "with respect" or a "sorry to disagree but," as a prefix to your sentences might help. My mum used to call it good manners, especially when conversing with the fairer sex.

I know:eek:fftopic:..........carry on.
 
Some people don't feel they have the aggressive style of conversation to reply to being talked down to in the same way. Perhaps a "with respect" or a "sorry to disagree but," as a prefix to your sentences might help. My mum used to call it good manners, especially when conversing with the fairer sex.

I know:eek:fftopic:..........carry on.

Good old fashioned manners ........its good to know it still exists. Well done RT you hit the nail on the head ;)

Ps Ange its good that your staying I enjoy your posts
 
Some people don't feel they have the aggressive style of conversation to reply to being talked down to in the same way. Perhaps a "with respect" or a "sorry to disagree but," as a prefix to your sentences might help. My mum used to call it good manners, especially when conversing with the fairer sex.

I know:eek:fftopic:..........carry on.

I don't actually disagree with your sentiments, however some see it has 'fluffy' talk ....going around the houses.
What I would agree on is there is a line between straightforward, and outright rude.being a twat for the sake of it.


Channa
 
I don't know how one is supposed to know the gender of posters on here unless they put that information in their profiles (Profiles? What are they?). Screen names cannot be taken as any guide to a stranger. You may know your gender but others don't.[/QUOTE said:
.

Loads more but you're all maybe getting fed up now and losing the will.....plus my one finger typing is taking its toll lol. :)

Ange

..........and the daft looking pussycat avatar maybe a clue too;)
 
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I spoke too soon : (

Good to see reasoned debate in a web forum - must admit that my initial reason for reading through was to see how nasty it would get... and (as a newbie to the forum/community) I'm more than pleasantly surprised.
I'm quoting myself to remind myself to wait and see next time.

When I read online forums I often feel it's a shame that debaters don't seem to understand that everyone's experience and views are different - completely different in many cases - that viewpoints are often not a matter of absolute rights and wrongs. It makes things less painful and destructive to stop and ask oneself, before posting:
  • have I tried to understand where the other person is coming from, what they're trying to communicate, why they might think as they do?
  • am I nit-picking or being antagonistic to try and win an argument rather than engage in a discussion?
  • is there a constructive and exploratory way of phrasing what I want to say so we can all learn something without hurting each other?
  • what can I learn from the the people willing to discuss this topic... about how other people live, about their experiences, which may be very different from mine?
Of course, if triumph is what you're after, if it makes you feel better, you can dismiss my views right now!
 
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