Charging lithium from the Alternator

[Pudsey Bear]

I just came across this, and wondered why all the van owners with lithium had not posted about this potential problem

 

[barryd]

I watched that a while back Kev. I am sure its been covered before. Its another reason why many advise Lithium is not just a drop in for most vans without alternator regulation.

 

[Fisherman]

That’s why as highlighted in the video you need a B2B which controls the current draw whilst maximising charging from a smart alternator. This video from five years ago shows the old 30a victron b2b which was far less efficient, larger and required a heat sinc. The new 50a B2B is a game changer not only producing more power but doing so so efficiently that no heat sinc is required due to 98% efficiency, far more efficient than the old 30a B2B which I think ran at around 70% efficiency. (The less efficient electrical equipment is, the more heat it creates necessitating a fan or a heat sinc)
As for drop in lithium that depends on the age of the vehicle and the charging equipment supplied with it. Any van produced in the past 4-5 years will most likely come with all of the ancillary equipment required, and drop in lithium is a realistic expectation. My van came with lithium compatible charging equipment, inc a Nordelectronica 40A B2B which as I said I recently replaced with a 50a victron B2B. But older vans will require lithium charging equipment. But the benefits of lithium far outweigh any disadvantages for those who require more power, or who wish to go off grid in winter.

Lead batteries are relics from the past, heavy, low usable amperage, short life spans, varying voltage, greater internal resistance making them more difficult to charge, and in the medium term far more expensive. My old Varta lead batteries died after two years, lithium batteries can be charged thousands of times before reaching 80% capacity. Even then they are still better than lead batteries still in use today.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Hmm, my van is an 07 Ducato, so that concerns me a bit as I was planning to go 100ah lithium in the next few weeks.

 

[Fisherman]

Hmm, my van is an 07 Ducato, so that concerns me a bit as I was planning to go 100ah lithium in the next few weeks.

Kev you will most probably need a new mains charger, if you have solar you may require a new solar charger, and I would fit a B2B.
It all depends on how you use your van.
Or set your mains charger to AGM.
If you use a lot of power, and want to go off grid in winter go for it.
I am sure David (wildebus), Merl or others on here could advise you, they have forgotten more than I know. All I know is lithium has been an absolute game changer for us.

 

[trevskoda]

That’s why as highlighted in the video you need a B2B which controls the current draw whilst maximising charging from a smart alternator. This video from five years ago shows the old 30a victron b2b which was far less efficient, larger and required a heat sinc. The new 50a B2B is a game changer not only producing more power but doing so so efficiently that no heat sinc is required due to 98% efficiency, far more efficient than the old 30a B2B which I think ran at around 70% efficiency.
As for drop in lithium that depends on the age of the vehicle and the charging equipment supplied with it. Any van produced in the past 4-5 years will most likely come with all of the ancillary equipment required, and drop in lithium is a realistic expectation. My van came with lithium compatible charging equipment, inc a Nordelectronica 40A B2B which as I said I recently replaced with a 50a victron B2B. But older vans will require lithium charging equipment. But the benefits of lithium far outweigh any disadvantages for those who require more power, or who wish to go off grid in winter.

Lead batteries are relics from the past, heavy, low usable amperage, short life spans, varying voltage, greater internal resistance making them more difficult to charge, and in the medium term far more expensive. My old Varta lead batteries died after two years, lithium batteries can be charged thousands of times before reaching 80% capacity. Even then they are still better than lead batteries still in use today.

Very interesting, i have recorted the vidio as brotherinlaws van has a smart alt and some assh-le converter has made a bo--ox of setup.
Strange thing is my vans on l acids which are now over 10 years old and still working a treat, mind you the only thing apart from a few led lights running would be the fridge which draws very litle juce and rated at tripple star, so my solar almost keeps things in order except maybe nov/ dec short days and low sun if the van is idle at home, but then again i dont use the fridge in winter.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Kev you will most probably need a new mains charger, if you have solar you may require a new solar charger, and I would fit a B2B.
It all depends on how you use your van.
Or set your mains charger to AGM.
If you use a lot of power, and want to go off grid in winter go for it.
I am sure David (wildebus), Merl or others on here could advise you, they have forgotten more than I know. All I know is lithium has been an absolute game changer for us.

Cheers Bill, My controller fortunately can be set up for Lithium, the charger is whatever Swift fitted in 2007, but the only adjustment is on or off as lithium wasn't really a thing or AGM, we don't use a lot of power, main thing would be charging my chair batteries so would be done on the move mainly, I jsut bought a 5a charger for it as the 2a one would take forever, other than that jsut the usual phones and tablet, and the odd laptop charge and as few lights on as possible, we've always been fairly frugal, this battery drops off a cliff if you put two lights on at the same time, but I've dragged it kicking and screaming for four years.

 

[trevskoda]

Cheers Bill, My controller fortunately can be set up for Lithium, the charger is whatever Swift fitted in 2007, but the only adjustment is on or off as lithium wasn't really a thing or AGM, we don't use a lot of power, main thing would be charging my chair batteries so would be done on the move mainly, I jsut bought a 5a charger for it as the 2a one would take forever, other than that jsut the usual phones and tablet, and the odd laptop charge and as few lights on as possible, we've always been fairly frugal, this battery drops off a cliff if you put two lights on at the same time, but I've dragged it kicking and screaming for four years.

Must be something wrong with battery or lights, i can run all of mine and very little drop with the batteries., then again i built my own lighting units with switchable white or soft.

 

[Fisherman]

Very interesting, i have recorted the vidio as brotherinlaws van has a smart alt and some assh-le converter has made a bo--ox of setup.
Strange thing is my vans on l acids which are now over 10 years old and still working a treat, mind you the only thing apart from a few led lights running would be the fridge which draws very litle juce and rated at tripple star, so my solar almost keeps things in order except maybe nov/ dec short days and low sun if the van is idle at home, but then again i dont use the fridge in winter.

As you know Trev, what limits the lifespan of lead batteries is deep discharge. In winter we regularly took our two 100AGM down to 50-60%. And that was whilst being careful with the leccy. But I am surprised even at low usage lead lasting as long as yours. In winter we used to use battery powered small leds for light, limited tv use, and an inverter would have been impossible. But now even in winter we go four to five days without moving. The only thing we have to limit is the use of the inverter. But I could add two further 100ah which will fit under the passenger seat. But I don’t reckon that’s necessary.

Your brother in law will require a B2b due to having a smart alternator.
And make sure he fits one large enough for his needs, but not to large for his alternator.
I would strongly recommend victrons new 50a B2B, but at £240 he may reckon that’s too expensive.

 

[barryd]

Do the job properly Kev on an 07 van. I wouldn't just drop it in especially after you have watched that video. If your going to do it I would put in at least a 280ah not a 100. With all the other bits it won't be that much more cost wise I think.

 

[trevskoda]

As you know Trev, what limits the lifespan of lead batteries is deep discharge. In winter we regularly took our two 100AGM down to 50-60%. And that was whilst being careful with the leccy. But I am surprised even at low usage lead lasting as long as yours. In winter we used to use battery powered small leds for light, limited tv use, and an inverter would have been impossible. But now even in winter we go four to five days without moving. The only thing we have to limit is the use of the inverter. But I could add two further 100ah which will fit under the passenger seat. But I don’t reckon that’s necessary.

At best im only ever overnight, have tv but dont bother with it, just lights and ph charging and maybe the radio for a hr or so, not forgetting toilet light and short flush of the loo.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Do the job properly Kev on an 07 van. I wouldn't just drop it in especially after you have watched that video. If your going to do it I would put in at least a 280ah not a 100. With all the other bits it won't be that much more cost wise I think.

Cost is a big issue Barry, and I don't use much when not driving, so 100ah is more than enough I think.

 

[mark61]

At best im only ever overnight, have tv but dont bother with it, just lights and ph charging and maybe the radio for a hr or so, not forgetting toilet light and short flush of the loo.

get a composting loo and get another 10 years out of your batteries.

 

[exwindsurfer]

My van is a 09 relay so no smart alternator I charge my 4 Relion lithiums with either the 600watts of solar or my alternator through a victron relay Ive ran this for over 6 years now with no probs what so ever.my alternator put about 70 amps in to my batteries while driving so I see no point in spending about 250 quid on a b to b to only get 50 amps.

 

[colinm]

Cheers Bill, My controller fortunately can be set up for Lithium, the charger is whatever Swift fitted in 2007, but the only adjustment is on or off as lithium wasn't really a thing or AGM, we don't use a lot of power, main thing would be charging my chair batteries so would be done on the move mainly, I jsut bought a 5a charger for it as the 2a one would take forever, other than that jsut the usual phones and tablet, and the odd laptop charge and as few lights on as possible, we've always been fairly frugal, this battery drops off a cliff if you put two lights on at the same time, but I've dragged it kicking and screaming for four years.

The first thing you need to do is find out how your leisure battery is charged, if it's through a EBL like ours the maximum it can draw from alternator is 18amp.

 

[wildebus]

I just came across this, and wondered why all the van owners with lithium had not posted about this potential problem

That video has been generally discredited, Kev. It does bring up some interesting points but the 'test' environment could be considered as rigged to create a worst-case situation and one which is very unlikely for vehicles.

Having said that, the conclusion (IIRC, as not watched it for years) was sound enough in saying a B2B should be used for Lithium to control the load, but will your van explode if you don't? unlikely.

 

[wildebus]

Hmm, my van is an 07 Ducato, so that concerns me a bit as I was planning to go 100ah lithium in the next few weeks.

If you are fitting a Lithium Battery, then 100% I would recommend getting a B2B.

If you had installed a split charge system using a VSR or Switched Relay, then assuming you used decent cables, then you should be able to reuse those cables on the B2B without worry.
And if you are looking to save money, then I have some pre-owned B2Bs at bargain prices

 

[wildebus]

It is hard to really know how good a battery still is without doing a load test on one.
Trev says his batteries are good still after 10 years? While that would be relatively unusual, it is by no means impossible if used fairly lightly and charged correctly, and Trev does know how to treat the batteries. But doing a load test would be the key.

What I used to do, but not done so for a few years now, is every 6 months or so, do a controlled load test on each battery in a bank and see how much I could get out of them compared to when new.
Not hard to do ... just fully charge them and put a known constant load on the battery and see how long it takes for the battery to get down to 12V. If say a 100Ah battery, put a 5A load on it and if the battery is still 100Ah capacity, it should be at 12V after 10 hours (check with load removed). If it went down to 12V after 5 hours say, the battery has lost half its capacity.

When I got my new-to-me Motorhome, it had a pair of quality AGM Lead Acid Batteries. Age unknown, but likely 10+ years. They died the first night I was away off-grid (at a Motorhomer even as it happens . So I would take nothing for granted.

The GEL Lead-Carbon batteries in my Motorhome (replaced very soon after getting it for reason above) are coming up to 5 years old and while I haven't done an actual controlled load test for ages, the power-draw vs voltage comparison I can see on the logging data suggests to me they are still in tip-top condition.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

The first thing you need to do is find out how your leisure battery is charged, if it's through a EBL like ours the maximum it can draw from alternator is 18amp.

It is just a charger, a Nordelletro or some such, a simple on/off switch, but I have heard tales of them frying batteries, so it only gets used sparingly for a couple of hours & never left on for months, main charging is 170w solar and 50 to 100 miles per day driving when away.

It does have a small draw via the Gizmott from Merlin, and he'll be fitting it and setting up the controller in about 6 weeks or so.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

If you are fitting a Lithium Battery, then 100% I would recommend getting a B2B.

If you had installed a split charge system using a VSR or Switched Relay, then assuming you used decent cables, then you should be able to reuse those cables on the B2B without worry.
And if you are looking to save money, then I have some pre-owned B2Bs at bargain prices

This is where my brain freezes David, no idea what exactly a B2B is, but I have one of these https://amzn.eu/d/iKxw9fW to send charge to the LB from the VB when the engine is running, & Merlin's Gizmott to do the same in reverse when parked up to a lesser degree.

I'm not 100% convinced I actually need Lithium. Lead acid has been fine, but the idea of a drop in appeals, but as said, no pennies have been harmed yet.