Wildcamping in Scotland-An existential threat

2cv said:
An interesting article today. The Slanj is mentioned, where motorhomers are made very welcome. They calculate that the average motorhome spend there is £47.25. They’re appreciating that whilst they are not permitted to open toilets the motorhomes with self contained facilities will be a very important source of business.
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Thanks for that info 2cv, looks like a useful stop for Cobbler etc. trips:)
 
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2cv said:
An interesting article today. The Slanj is mentioned, where motorhomers are made very welcome. They calculate that the average motorhome spend there is £47.25. They’re appreciating that whilst they are not permitted to open toilets the motorhomes with self contained facilities will be a very important source of business.
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There is also an elsan point in the car park at Tarbet a 1/4 mile doon hill from the Slanj not sure if that will be open at the moment though. I spoke to Tom last year when we were up and he mentioned that the council have put a restriction on the amount of M/H he is allowed to let park up over night but there is also the over spill which can use the car park down by the Loch.
 
Slightly off topic but just caught the back end of wee Nicola telling us to holiday in Scotland to support their tourist industry during her daily briefing.
 
Obanboy666 said:
Slightly off topic but just caught the back end of wee Nicola telling us to holiday in Scotland to support their tourist industry during her daily briefing.
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That was my intention anyway to keep within the UK, a friend who lives at Avernish said a few B & B's up that way whom he has spoken to have no intention on opening this year at all.
 
2cv said:
An interesting article today. The Slanj is mentioned, where motorhomers are made very welcome. They calculate that the average motorhome spend there is £47.25. They’re appreciating that whilst they are not permitted to open toilets the motorhomes with self contained facilities will be a very important source of business.
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Worth keeping that reference; could be useful in the future.

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As a Scot it’s so embarrassing to see the behaviour of some folk recently please people ignore it all , go wherever you like whenever you like to hell with the nutters give the halfwits at the imaginary border with their paper boilersuits and masks made from old hotel rugs a wave as you pass park up as we do with consideration and enjoy yourselves
 
read the Cameron McNeish reply to her . the man talks sense. personally I have e.mail my local MSP and Fergus Ewing, the tourism minister, about the ongoing lack of facilities, even parking in rural Scotland. We need to work with the councils and local groups to find an approach similar to the continent or the western isles. Unfortunately it needs a lead from government. The LLTT NP tried to encourage private infrastructure improvements since they enacted the camping bylaws but nothing much has happened. we have lots of underused carparks suitable for overnight stops but even finding a water fillup is problematic. Currently government, local and national, expects us to always overnight in official sites despite visit scotland providing links to all the hire companies. as a scot, if coming here, please don't antagonize the locals and be especially considerate to the environment. what has fueled the fires is the damage, littering and even violence locals are seeing on a daily basis.
 
mikeg40 said:
read the Cameron McNeish reply to her . the man talks sense. personally I have e.mail my local MSP and Fergus Ewing, the tourism minister, about the ongoing lack of facilities, even parking in rural Scotland. We need to work with the councils and local groups to find an approach similar to the continent or the western isles. Unfortunately it needs a lead from government. The LLTT NP tried to encourage private infrastructure improvements since they enacted the camping bylaws but nothing much has happened. we have lots of underused carparks suitable for overnight stops but even finding a water fillup is problematic. Currently government, local and national, expects us to always overnight in official sites despite visit scotland providing links to all the hire companies. as a scot, if coming here, please don't antagonize the locals and be especially considerate to the environment. what has fueled the fires is the damage, littering and even violence locals are seeing on a daily basis.
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Fine post there Mike.

But I doubt very much if the litter and the damage would have come from us.
We are more likely to pick up litter than leave it anywhere.
The vast majority of us are very considerate of the locals.
We try to park up well away from homes as much as possible.
As for violence that should be dealt with by the police.
I would Recommend noting Reg numbers and reporting such behaviour.

Yes things have to change, right now the solution seems to be barriers and signage. This does more harm than good. Limiting were we can park, and creating over use of some areas due to lack of available spaces.
 
I would be inclined to write to farming groups and to game and conservation groups like the CLA or NFU, the Forestry Commission and Natural Trust and English / Dcottish heritage nd explain the need
Farmers and landowners have been overwhelmed by increased use of the land by people during covid. Gates and blocked, carparks are filled and carparks are inadequate. There is a recognition that the infrastructure can't cope with massively increased usage. Due to parking, litter, fire and human excrement.
This would be a good time to present an argument for Aires, for increased serviced car parks and for access to the countryside to be possible without causing conflict with those making a living from it.
I am yet to have my first van trip (hired my first on the 17th) so I dont have the experience but I do know the issues felt by the farming world.
So, definitely try and strike up dialogue, provide practical ideas and solutions may follow. Farmers are entrepreneurial and that tenner a night pitch fee for a quiet Aire can make a difference.
 
I've had an email exchange with Vicki as one Community Councillor to another and she has calmed down a bit now, having received 500 hate mails (as she calls them!)

I explained the concept of Aires to her and how well they worked in Europe and she was receptive to the idea.

I also pointed out that people were suggesting she has a vested interest, but she replied that she was no longer involved in the businesses mentioned. In any case, Community Councils have a fairly robust procedure for declaring interest in any decisions they make.

As others have said, getting anyone to join a Community Council (which *is* an elected body - at least it is if there are enough candidates!) is a challenge, much like any other voluntary body these days, so we have to take who we can get (myself included!!) It's also true that Community Councils in Scotland have less power than English Parish Councils, but they do (sometimes) have a reasonably powerful voice in "directing" the thoughts of the County Councils who do make the decisions.

The experiment to regularise "wild camping" around Loch Lomond was widely agreed to have been an expensive disaster that didn't achieve its objections.

Graham
 
Glad to hear Viki has calmed down - though a friend sent me the attached link and it looks likes Cornwall is kicking up! :(

read here

do send any counsellors this to additionally consider re wild camping. It’s one of my ‘hobby horses’ ;) It stresses responsible wild camping and the plus sides of doing it with children !
 

Attachments

  • WCWC 1.pdf
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barge1914 said:
This post came up on the CAMPRA group today. Grim reading. It’s self explanatory. Does anyone know anything about this? Unless the motorhome community digs its collective head out of the sand and comes up with some positive reactions and proposals we may not be enjoying our passion north of the border very much longer.....

<< A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.

I won’t reproduce all the letter but key points include the following:

“I have already spoken to many of you on the phone but feel that in spite of this I should include you in the e-mail setting out the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Councils idea to get as many Community Councils to back a collective approach to the problem we all suffer from – over tourism.”

“We would like to suggest that a law be brought in in Scotland that makes it illegal to park overnight in any place other than a proper Camp site. Be this for small vans camping as well as the thousands of Campervans & Caravans that visit us every year.”

“All this needs to be rolled out "pan Scotland”. We all should apply the same rules and have the same signs as our neighbours in order for this to be effective.”

“Once we have agreement and as many onboard as possible we should involve the Scottish Government because only through them will we be able to resolve this.”

“We have all enjoyed a traffic & litter free 3 months and we see the difference to our wildlife and our own lives. None of us want to return to what was deemed as "normal" behaviour by our Visitors. We need the Tourists but if we are not to be overwhelmed again we help to mange them.”

I was very saddened to read this. An attempt to criminalise an innocent pastime is pretty nasty and while I would be the first to agree that some campervanners fall short of the required behaviour it’s unfortunate that this Community Council has failed to recognise the changing face of tourism in Scotland.

When I was a lad we stayed in a caravan on a campsite for a couple of weeks at a time. We didn’t move around. The caravan was static. Most folk enjoyed holidays like this.

Today’s active travel market is very different. People want to explore, they want to use their campervan to travel and live in while they walk, climb, cycle, paddle a canoe or watch birds and wildlife. They want to be able to move around and park at night in a safe piece of level ground. They will check into a campsite every few days to shower and empty waste and pick up fresh water.

Rather than vehemently oppose this form of tourism I’m particularly sad at the lack of vision shown by this Community Council. They should see it as an opportunity, not a problem. An opportunity to create small, informal parking spaces on the edge of villages or towns where camper vans could park overnight for a small fee to cover costs.

Better still would be the creation of a network of Continental-style aires, again with the overnight fees going to the community. It amazes me that in a country like Scotland, that boasts of being progressive, we are actually regressive on issues like this.

It seems that camper vans are being blamed for littering the countryside when recent events during lockdown have clearly demonstrated the fact that the gross littering of our countryside is by members of the general public, folk from all walks of life. Indeed I would go as far as suggesting that campervan owners are amongst the most caring of countryside users.

While many campervanners don’t want to pay upwards of £30-35 for a pitch in a five-star campsite that has all-singing, all-dancing facilities (although some are happy to pay that) I’m pretty sure most are happy to pay a realistic fee for a night in a budget one-star campsite, or Aire.

Instead of trying to criminalise campervanners, community councils should be working with us to create a network of such budget overnights. They will make money from it, their local shops, restaurants, pubs etc will benefit from it and we campervanners will benefit from it too.

I would urge Scottish Community Councils to sit down and talk to us campervan users. There are ways we can all benefit from dialogue and create something that would be good for Scotland, and on a final note I would just add that making overnight campervan parking illegal would mean re-writing UK Traffic law, and that ain’t going to happen. Let’s iron out the problems that exist and create somewhere worthy to benefit everyone. It can be done.

A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.

I won’t reproduce all the letter but key points include the following:

“I have already spoken to many of you on the phone but feel that in spite of this I should include you in the e-mail setting out the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Councils idea to get as many Community Councils to back a collective approach to the problem we all suffer from – over tourism.”

“We would like to suggest that a law be brought in in Scotland that makes it illegal to park overnight in any place other than a proper Camp site. Be this for small vans camping as well as the thousands of Campervans & Caravans that visit us every year.”

“All this needs to be rolled out "pan Scotland”. We all should apply the same rules and have the same signs as our neighbours in order for this to be effective.”

“Once we have agreement and as many onboard as possible we should involve the Scottish Government because only through them will we be able to resolve this.”

“We have all enjoyed a traffic & litter free 3 months and we see the difference to our wildlife and our own lives. None of us want to return to what was deemed as "normal" behaviour by our Visitors. We need the Tourists but if we are not to be overwhelmed again we help to mange them.”

I was very saddened to read this. An attempt to criminalise an innocent pastime is pretty nasty and while I would be the first to agree that some campervanners fall short of the required behaviour it’s unfortunate that this Community Council has failed to recognise the changing face of tourism in Scotland.

When I was a lad we stayed in a caravan on a campsite for a couple of weeks at a time. We didn’t move around. The caravan was static. Most folk enjoyed holidays like this.

Today’s active travel market is very different. People want to explore, they want to use their campervan to travel and live in while they walk, climb, cycle, paddle a canoe or watch birds and wildlife. They want to be able to move around and park at night in a safe piece of level ground. They will check into a campsite every few days to shower and empty waste and pick up fresh water.

Rather than vehemently oppose this form of tourism I’m particularly sad at the lack of vision shown by this Community Council. They should see it as an opportunity, not a problem. An opportunity to create small, informal parking spaces on the edge of villages or towns where camper vans could park overnight for a small fee to cover costs.

Better still would be the creation of a network of Continental-style aires, again with the overnight fees going to the community. It amazes me that in a country like Scotland, that boasts of being progressive, we are actually regressive on issues like this.

It seems that camper vans are being blamed for littering the countryside when recent events during lockdown have clearly demonstrated the fact that the gross littering of our countryside is by members of the general public, folk from all walks of life. Indeed I would go as far as suggesting that campervan owners are amongst the most caring of countryside users.

While many campervanners don’t want to pay upwards of £30-35 for a pitch in a five-star campsite that has all-singing, all-dancing facilities (although some are happy to pay that) I’m pretty sure most are happy to pay a realistic fee for a night in a budget one-star campsite, or Aire.

Instead of trying to criminalise campervanners, community councils should be working with us to create a network of such budget overnights. They will make money from it, their local shops, restaurants, pubs etc will benefit from it and we campervanners will benefit from it too.

I would urge Scottish Community Councils to sit down and talk to us campervan users. There are ways we can all benefit from dialogue and create something that would be good for Scotland, and on a final note I would just add that making overnight campervan parking illegal would mean re-writing UK Traffic law, and that ain’t going to happen. Let’s iron out the problems that exist and create somewhere worthy to benefit everyone. It can be done.>>
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Maybe boycott Scotland for a year and see what other councils in Scotland think of Vicky Sutherlands " ONLY ME" opinion on which tourists she wants in Scotland and see if it effects their local economy.
 
GrahamPye said:
I've had an email exchange with Vicki as one Community Councillor to another and she has calmed down a bit now, having received 500 hate mails (as she calls them!)

I explained the concept of Aires to her and how well they worked in Europe and she was receptive to the idea.

I also pointed out that people were suggesting she has a vested interest, but she replied that she was no longer involved in the businesses mentioned. In any case, Community Councils have a fairly robust procedure for declaring interest in any decisions they make.

As others have said, getting anyone to join a Community Council (which *is* an elected body - at least it is if there are enough candidates!) is a challenge, much like any other voluntary body these days, so we have to take who we can get (myself included!!) It's also true that Community Councils in Scotland have less power than English Parish Councils, but they do (sometimes) have a reasonably powerful voice in "directing" the thoughts of the County Councils who do make the decisions.

The experiment to regularise "wild camping" around Loch Lomond was widely agreed to have been an expensive disaster that didn't achieve its objections.

Graham
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In what way was the Loch Lomond scheme a failure? And is it still running?
 
Please calm down people. This lady has already had over 500 hate mails. She is listening to calmer voices. This furore is giving us a chance to put the case for better facilities to Community Council in the highlands. While they do not have a great deal of political clout, some of them have access to windfarm money to set up facilities to benefit the community. Paid disposal points are fundable. If anyone on here knows people with land we could contact let me know please.
 
I appreciate that those on this forum are unlikely to be the ones upsetting the locals but the unfortunate minority is as always spoiling it for the rest of us. the glen coe comments are not the wider view but several areas have set up groups to combat the problems. in the tummel/rannoch area the local conservation group that represents the majority of landowners has put up fences and placed stones along the roadside to prevent unwanted parking. there is another local group pushing for LLTT NP style permits but in conjunction with facilities such as parking and waste facilities. every sunday is dreaded as there are literally tonnes of rubbish to be cleared along with damage to be repaired. licenses are noted and sent to the council, police have been patrolling but seem not to do much, resources are stretched. on saturday one eye witness reported about 100 cars parked by the roadside, many camping. hopefully if we all pull together then we can find a suitable solution but there seems to be lack of respect to the environment that has reached unprecedented levels.
 
mikeg40 said:
I appreciate that those on this forum are unlikely to be the ones upsetting the locals but the unfortunate minority is as always spoiling it for the rest of us. the glen coe comments are not the wider view but several areas have set up groups to combat the problems. in the tummel/rannoch area the local conservation group that represents the majority of landowners has put up fences and placed stones along the roadside to prevent unwanted parking. there is another local group pushing for LLTT NP style permits but in conjunction with facilities such as parking and waste facilities. every sunday is dreaded as there are literally tonnes of rubbish to be cleared along with damage to be repaired. licenses are noted and sent to the council, police have been patrolling but seem not to do much, resources are stretched. on saturday one eye witness reported about 100 cars parked by the roadside, many camping. hopefully if we all pull together then we can find a suitable solution but there seems to be lack of respect to the environment that has reached unprecedented levels.
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Good points and clearly true but I still think that motorhomes/vanners are the least likely to create problems and very rarely do so.
Unfortunately we get tarred with the same brush.
 
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