Times they are a changing

[maingate]

It is not just schools we should worry about.

One of my areas of work was in Power Presses (metal bashing equipment). At times I had the nephew of one of the Directors in the van with me who bragged that he had an HNC in mechanical Engineering. Personally, I figured he was too thick to have obtained it and I used to ask him engineering questions. He did not have a clue and there are plenty more like him out there, I came across them all the time. This is one of the reasons why I decided to get out of engineering early. It's a pity as I always enjoyed the work at whatever level I worked at.

 

[Dezi]

From my own experience from junior school through the education system then a long time later a stint lecturing
I would question the statement that education levels have not altered over the years. Exams have certainly been dumbed down over the past 30 odd years.

The math standard we were expected to pass was very high & my English literature O level paper (Oxford & Cambridge board) was based around the metaphysical poets of the 17th century.
I do not see anything comparable being set at that age today.

That’s a shame because it’s our children & now grandchildren that are missing out.

Dezi c:

 

[Firefox]

Exam levels have definitely been dumbed down. Hence they had to introduce A* because A no longer meant what it did. What next? A** ... rather like the AAA credit ratings, LOL!

In the 1980's, the place where I went to Uni required 3 B's at A level. Now they want 3 A's.

To use the newer technologies effectively (computer aided design/drawing) you need the new skills AND the old basic skills as well. If anything it is more difficult to do correctly, just less time consuming if you do it right. That's why it is called computer AIDED design.

 

[Deleted member 8180]

Nostalgia ain’t what it was, is the usual comment when harking back to earlier times.

I mention this because Michael Gove the education sec has just said that children should have mastered the times tables by age 9 under tough new rules being introduced.

Dezi c:

Don't forget you're talking about the Secretary of State for Education whose aim is for more than 50% of students to be 'above average'...

...do the maths Michael...

 

[John H]

Once again, I find myself agreeing with most of what has been said since my last post but I think that Mastodon has summed it up best - the ludicrous aims of successive governments to get most people above average explains virtually all the individual examples of poor quality recruits that have been mentioned by others. It goes without saying that if, say, 10% of the population used to achieve a higher grade in an exam 40 years ago and that 60% of the population now get those higher grades then either we have the best set of teachers in the world or the standards of the exams are lower than they used to be. We have done our children no favours by pretending that they can get qualifications and jobs that they are just not suited for - all in the name of each education secretary claiming he is doing a better job than the last. It is always difficult to pinpoint exactly where things started to change but I believe that the biggest individual contribution to this nonsensical situation came when league tables were introduced. From that point on schools had to do everything they could to show that their figures were improving or they would lose money. The same is now true of universities and the consequence is that first class degrees are now almost the norm whereas in my year only one out of over 60 got a first. It is not that our children today are less educated; it is that too many of them have been given too many pieces of paper with "A" written on them. Thus someone who would have probably not got any paper qualifications 50 years ago (he would have left school before that) can now present a certificate that claims he knows all he needs to know about Maths or Science or French or whatever. All this achieves is to make employers think standards have fallen when they have in all probability remained more or less the same.

 

[vwalan]

hi john. some did leave before taking exams i was one of them. as my birthday is in july i was 15yrs and 2weeks old when i left.didnt stop me doing what i wanted . learnt butchery /slaughtering . learnt to be a chef in the army . came out and managed butchers shops later worked in large supermarket chains at management level. self taught mechanics . started my own spares shop . got into importing exporting . plus building campers trikes restoration of vehicles . worked for one of the large tyre importers often multi tasking to keep it all running . employing several others . but managed to keep the finger on the pulse of it all. went into semi retirement at 43 to travel for 5yrs around the coast of africa. came back early and drove for several companies as a relief driver. mainly for fun and enjoyed every minute ,very often going off the trucks to supervise there staff . or going on trips representing the companies as others didnt really have their heart in what they were doing. there still is great possibilties for every one specially the young. be adaptable learn fast and have confidance. several companies i know from round here have become national giants . rodda,s cream .ginsters pasties . st merryn meats ,(one of the uks biggest meat companies ever).roche foods now part of tulip bacon company . i have actually worked for all these companies and seen them grow. yet all started in cornwall . there is always steps forward . the young have learnt different things to us , they are in a different enviroment . but give them time they will make it. there are some wizard kids out there in the shadows working away to get it right .

 

[bill2b]

My experience is based on interviewing school leavers over the past 15 years for entry level posts. If they claim to have an A* in maths A level I'd expect them to have a basic understanding of trigonometry and also to be able to solve basic equations such as quadratics and simultaneous, not to learn on the job ;-) That's if an A* in maths is supposed to mean anything.

If they can't do such things they'd be better off pursuing a career in linguistics, shelf stacking or wherever their talents lie. When it comes to skilled trades in construction on site, being able to set out dimensions, convert scales, and work out information from drawings including angles other than 90 is even more important than office based jobs. You can have all the computer aids you want, but when setting a stair soffit or a plaster line in the right place the final step is down to the person at the sharp end. That is also an art as well as a science because often what has been built previously is not correct, so you may have to exercise judgment as well as arithmetic.

Struth. I went through my school years being taught algebra and quite frankly I think it was a total waste of my time.
In the end I have never had to use it and I was an aircraft engineer for 30 years so it’s quite a joke having a builder quoting "stair soffits" and "Plaster lines" as a need for working out why A=CR3p
Has anyone met a builder who uses tolerances of less than 20mm how many houses end up with wooden wedges rammed in in the attic to take up gaps?

Quite frankly I don't think there is any more thickies these days than there was years ago, unless you multiply it by the population increase on the world and divide it by GB (Great Britain)/ Illegal Immigrants

 

[vwalan]

algebra is used daily by many . a =stock .b=bought in .c=takings .d=new stocklevel. a+b-c=d. thats simple but use your imagination could be anything .
far better is i buy something for one pound . i sell it for two pounds . as a percentage how much profit have i made.

 

[John H]

hi john. some did leave before taking exams i was one of them. as my birthday is in july i was 15yrs and 2weeks old when i left.didnt stop me doing what i wanted . learnt butchery /slaughtering . learnt to be a chef in the army . came out and managed butchers shops later worked in large supermarket chains at management level. self taught mechanics . started my own spares shop . got into importing exporting . plus building campers trikes restoration of vehicles . worked for one of the large tyre importers often multi tasking to keep it all running . employing several others . but managed to keep the finger on the pulse of it all. went into semi retirement at 43 to travel for 5yrs around the coast of africa. came back early and drove for several companies as a relief driver. mainly for fun and enjoyed every minute ,very often going off the trucks to supervise there staff . or going on trips representing the companies as others didnt really have their heart in what they were doing. there still is great possibilties for every one specially the young. be adaptable learn fast and have confidance. several companies i know from round here have become national giants . rodda,s cream .ginsters pasties . st merryn meats ,(one of the uks biggest meat companies ever).roche foods now part of tulip bacon company . i have actually worked for all these companies and seen them grow. yet all started in cornwall . there is always steps forward . the young have learnt different things to us , they are in a different enviroment . but give them time they will make it. there are some wizard kids out there in the shadows working away to get it right .

I always knew you were a fascinating character, Alan! I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. We write too many people off because they have not had the opportunities or have been given the wrong advice about courses/careers etc - or by telling them they should boost the school's exam statistics when really they should be doing something else entirely. As I said earlier, we are not short of intelligent, well-educated or adaptable people; we just direct some of them along the wrong paths - and, as an educator myself, I have to say that the schools take a lot of the blame for that (the only excuse being that they are pushed down that line by idiotic government dictates). Its about time we used a different yardstick to judge our young people by than ever-easier exams that are just there to make ministers of education look good.

 

[vwalan]

hi, in my spare time i used to be an army cadet instructor . watched many of the cadets rise from nothing into being very well sorted . when we were on trips i was always given the bad boys ,the ones that came back drunk etc. i learnt by taking them to the pub telling the landlord their age but letting them buy shandy . playing pool etc getting to meet the older people they learnt alot .how to fit in with others . i have had a few work for me . some have gone on to be their own bosses and run good businesses but were almost thrown aside by the teachers etc.
unfortunately today authority cant deal with these characters . years ago like me you just got caned . many of the starting blocks for the lightly unrully have disapeared . they dont need bits of paper they need a kind of gauntlet thrown at them . a challenge . did at one time get involved with the princes trust organisation . that did alot of them good . i still see alot of the boys now men, they still come and ask advise about things in their lives . to some i,m sure i,m that father figure . my sons friends just about all still talk . mind their dads wernt riding trikes and building custom cars etc. life is also about fun . i think some take it all too seriously.

 

[John H]

hi, in my spare time i used to be an army cadet instructor . watched many of the cadets rise from nothing into being very well sorted . when we were on trips i was always given the bad boys ,the ones that came back drunk etc. i learnt by taking them to the pub telling the landlord their age but letting them buy shandy . playing pool etc getting to meet the older people they learnt alot .how to fit in with others . i have had a few work for me . some have gone on to be their own bosses and run good businesses but were almost thrown aside by the teachers etc.
unfortunately today authority cant deal with these characters . years ago like me you just got caned . many of the starting blocks for the lightly unrully have disapeared . they dont need bits of paper they need a kind of gauntlet thrown at them . a challenge . did at one time get involved with the princes trust organisation . that did alot of them good . i still see alot of the boys now men, they still come and ask advise about things in their lives . to some i,m sure i,m that father figure . my sons friends just about all still talk . mind their dads wernt riding trikes and building custom cars etc. life is also about fun . i think some take it all too seriously.

When I first started teaching we ran a course that included elements of academic subjects (geography, biology etc) but also rural studies (horticulture, animal husbandry etc) and outdoor pursuits and it was highly successful, although expensive. When you get someone to trust you enough to dangle them off a rope or point them in the direction of a rapid in a kayak then they seem to want to listen when you are in the classroom. Not only that, but, while you are dangling them on that rope, you can point out the nature of the rock formations or the plants colonising the rock face and it has more meaning to people than just looking it up in a textbook. But over the years, the exciting bits of the course gradually had to be shelved for reasons of finance and the National Curriculum (which doesn't allow for innovation) and now they are back to just the conventional bits - which does not readily grab the attention of all the students and thus you get boredom and trouble. You are right, Alan, life is about fun and if you can make education fun (as we did) then you don't need the cane (which is something I definitely take issue with you over) - and I'm not talking about just middle class well-behaved kids; we had them from all walks of life and indeed attracted more than our share of the difficult ones because of our approach.

 

[scampa]

algebra is used daily by many . a =stock .b=bought in .c=takings .d=new stocklevel. a+b-c=d. thats simple but use your imagination could be anything .
far better is i buy something for one pound . i sell it for two pounds . as a percentage how much profit have i made.

I would guess that most people, including me, would say you have made 100% profit (excluding any overheads of course). Other people would say 50% profit. The first group are reckoning on the profit being 100% of the purchase price, the second group thinking 50% of the selling price.

I once saw a small businessman ( he was only 4'6"! ) fly into a rage when someone said they had made 100% profit. He ranted and raved and eventually stormed off insisting that it was absolutely impossible! What I learned from that event was to realise that other people may have different ways of looking at things than me, so it's worth trying to understand things from their perspective instead of just labelling them as "wrong".

It would be a great help to interview panels if prospective candidates were given certificates for wisdom, maturity and common-sense, not just for academic or technical qualifications. On second thoughts, would some panels understand or value that?

Extra Info: In case anyone is interested, the person that this small businessman was falling out with was a shopkeeper ( another small, although slightly taller businessman ). The way I saw it at the time was that they were both right, but seeing it from different perspectives and stubbornly unable to understand each others views. It was in my interest to agree with the shopkeeper, as I was merely a customer in the queue who relied on getting my trade discount! As vwalan and a few others may have guessed, I have no experience in retailing ( well, not in a formal sense at least).

 

[Viktor]

I have to agree with the comments about new channels of education and not just pushing people down a convenient path....I took 9 O levels
and 2 A levels...and in reality I've used perhaps 2 or 3 of the O levels and the rest are forgotten bits of paper....even then the use of the teaching has been mainly fairly basic....I'd have been better gaining 4 O levels perhaps just the English, Maths, French and Art, and spent the remainder in Woodwork, Tiling, and other basic useful skills for later life.....but those were not taught in the grammar school...

 

[Firefox]

Struth. I went through my school years being taught algebra and quite frankly I think it was a total waste of my time.
In the end I have never had to use it and I was an aircraft engineer for 30 years so it’s quite a joke having a builder quoting "stair soffits" and "Plaster lines" as a need for working out why A=CR3p
Has anyone met a builder who uses tolerances of less than 20mm how many houses end up with wooden wedges rammed in in the attic to take up gaps?

Quite frankly I don't think there is any more thickies these days than there was years ago, unless you multiply it by the population increase on the world and divide it by GB (Great Britain)/ Illegal Immigrants

You can put up with a fair few musclemen on site, but the guys who do the setting out and direction, a ganger or a site engineer need to know their stuff. Or it ends up getting done twice.

As for tolerances it depends on what part of industry you are working in. Much low tech housing is just knocked together but try working in the nuclear industry or in high spec steel frames. Tolerances can be much less than 20mm and over huge distances in some cases.

Engineering is a broad field. Somebody who tightens a bolt or digs a trench can call it engineering but I'm talking about engineering design. I use algebra every day of the week when designing things. Try distributing loads on a bridge deck or working out stresses in tendons without algebra or equations. And when using software you need to know the theory behind it, or the results you get are liable to be crap and you won't even realise it. Somebody working for me designed a guyed mast the other month and ended up with compression in some cables. They had just divided a force by an area and got a stress and said it was fine, not realising it was the wrong sign. That's the kind of mistake that can easily be made if design is to the person only numbers they are putting into a calculator.

 

[Dezi]

Hi, I certainly agree that many unsuitable children are being pushed along the academic route when they would be better off learning a good trade via an apprenticeship.
However my aim in starting this thread was to highlight the fact that many 16yo cannot read / write or do maths to basic standard, and that’s scandalous because we all need these skills to get through life.

Dezi

 

[Bigpeetee]

Has anyone met a builder who uses tolerances of less than 20mm how many houses end up with wooden wedges rammed in in the attic to take up gaps?

Yes me, we manufactured engineered homes using SIPS panels our tolerances were 2mm and they were assembled like lego and incredibly efficient.

Trouble is, often the architects drawings weren't accurate enough.

You don't have to have pieces of paper to make you intelligent.

In the late 80's I had to rescue an IT fit-out in London, the project director informed me that he was proud to say that he had the most qualified team in London. When asked for their experience he replied they've all got Firsts or Masters!!

No actual real life experience and certainly no common sense. The team I introduced had people who had undertaken apprenticeships or even left school at 15 with nothing but had gained the relative experience and developed a lot of common sense.

This site is a prime example of people learning on the job, questioning others and considering their opinions before rushing off. After all, we've all come across the "Know it All", but on a site such as this common sense will usually prevail.

Long live common sense and those that wish to improve their knowledge and even more to those who wish to share it.

If you can see a reason to learn, most will.

Learning stops the grey matter degenerating so quickly!!

 

[John H]

Hi, I certainly agree that many unsuitable children are being pushed along the academic route when they would be better off learning a good trade via an apprenticeship.
However my aim in starting this thread was to highlight the fact that many 16yo cannot read / write or do maths to basic standard, and that’s scandalous because we all need these skills to get through life.

Dezi

I don't think anybody will disagree with what you say but some people were trying to suggest, from anecdotal evidence, that educational standards are lower now than they used to be. The reality is that independent research from, for example, the National Literacy Trust show that between 1999 and 2009 the number of children achieving the standard of literacy required of an 11 year old increased from 78% to 86%. Interestingly, among the adult population this figure was, in 2009, 83% - indicating a slight increase in literacy over the years (but possibly within the margin of statistical error).

The reason why people often THINK there has been a decline is that in "the good old days" when a potential employee stood before you with an A grade you could be sure he could read and add up to the standard required; now that exams have been devalued and up to six times more people are given A grades, you cannot be so sure anymore. It is the dumbing down of exams that is the problem, not educational standards.

 

[vwalan]

hi scampa. i would agree with your small business man. ha ha .
untill you have sold it you have made nothing , the % must be made on the selling price so 50%.
the mark up is 100%.
i did a business and finance course years ago and as i progressed through it i realized that many just were never going to make it. didnt matter how many O or A levels they had.
i was also lucky that even at 15yr old i was shown how to do book work at the shop where i first started . we had to make 33% or someone got into trouble. i found that the book work more interesting than the job really. it was only later one job required i had done the b+f course ,i wouldnt have done it otherwise but it was interesting.
i think the best part of my education was going to car auctions with my uncle at leeds nottingham and others ,being allowed to bid on their behalf and getting a feel for the real world. working at the slaughter house and going with the buyers and again the auction experiances from being a child did help. the buzz from making these types of decisions is the key.
i realized that many are doing what they hate so never actually put full effort into it.
i wish i had learnt more languages at school i think thats a good one my kids are good at french german portugese and one is excellent at arabic. helps him alot with all the foreign workers.but like me he needs challenge and is always swapping employment . often going back to help sort a problem on short term contract.

 

[maingate]

Your son sounds just like me Alan. Come to think of it I was down your way many years ago. :shag::lol-049:

I worked for about half of my working life on contract in many countries. Once the job had stopped being challenging, I moved on to the next one. Not so easy these days.

Learning languages is easy (to get by, not fluent). It is a mental hurdle with the first language and then gets easier after that.

ps I have been wondering for a long time how I can use the bed smilie. :idea-007:

 

[Dezi]

Your son sounds just like me Alan. Come to think of it I was down your way many years ago. :shag::lol-049:

I worked for about half of my working life on contract in many countries. Once the job had stopped being challenging, I moved on to the next one. Not so easy these days.

Learning languages is easy (to get by, not fluent). It is a mental hurdle with the first language and then gets easier after that.

ps I have been wondering for a long time how I can use the bed smilie. :idea-007:

Ah presume bi tha yee mean English yee shifty geordie

Dezi :banana: