Times they are a changing

[Dezi]

Nostalgia ain’t what it was, is the usual comment when harking back to earlier times.

I mention this because Michael Gove the education sec has just said that children should have mastered the times tables by age 9 under tough new rules being introduced.

We have so many 16 year olds currently leaving school unable to read to a reasonble standard or do basic mathematical calculations that they are unemployable.

Now I distinctly remember my first term in junior school (spring 1949) & sitting in Miss Greens class of 35 & along one wall were the times tables.

Each morning for 15 minutes we went through them, up down & every other way possible. Followed by a reading lesson. I do not remember a single kid in my class who did not know their tables thoroughly by age 8 & I did not know a single kid who could not read competently by age 9. This was just an average junior school on a council estate.

Anybody have different memories ?

Dezi c:

 

[bob72]

Well my school expirance was similar and I was only born in 83. We had to do tables and spelling tests everyday.

However I was useless at times tables and still am. I still struggle with some Maths but I have done alright for myself. I got a 1st class hons degree in computer science and have setup my own company developing software - currently working on a project for sky.

I think a lot of it is down to helping people to achieve goals, regardless of their ability. Working towards clear targets will make you progress and feel good about yourself and what you can achieve.

We need to encourage ambition!

 

[vwalan]

i say nothing as changed . i was born in 55 . i can do times tables etc . but know many that never learnt them and many that cant read properly. having worked in shops or dealing with the public i soon saw how many couldnt read and write . couldnt even write their own cheques. certainly cant multiply. it went unnoticed as there was more meanial jobs for them it got hidden. yet some learnt how to play darts and could say get this or that . so werent stupid just cant do things on paper . the change in money showed it and even more so with the change in measurements . dont look back with then rosie coloured glasses ,take them off and see the real world. many still dont know how many litres in a gallon . or chains in a furlong etc.

 

[Dezi]

i say nothing as changed . i was born in 55 . i can do times tables etc . but know many that never learnt them and many that cant read properly. having worked in shops or dealing with the public i soon saw how many couldnt read and write . couldnt even write their own cheques. certainly cant multiply. it went unnoticed as there was more meanial jobs for them it got hidden. yet some learnt how to play darts and could say get this or that . so werent stupid just cant do things on paper . the change in money showed it and even more so with the change in measurements . dont look back with then rosie coloured glasses ,take them off and see the real world. many still dont know how many litres in a gallon . or chains in a furlong etc.

I have had too much experience of the real World & its failings to look back through tinted specs.

I am just stating the way things were. By the time the 11 + came along our classes were still around the 35 mark & we had 19 passes. Yes there were some kids not as academically inclined behind, but all could do the tables & all could read.

Dezi

 

[vwalan]

i agree we had big classes when i went to school. i never passed the 11+. i can say that i didnt realise how many couldnt write etc till i worked with the public. another give away was shelf stackers .putting things on shelves up side down etc . amazed me . or sliced and half peaches mixed up. that also gave the game away. its definately not new to have this happen. think automation as brought it more in the open. reading instructions etc there are alot out there still guessing and have got through life guessing. must be in the small print is another give away . or i have left my reading glasses at home. its all around us .

 

[Deleted member 775]

very intresting a child should have mastered his times table by the age of 9 ....i havent fully got them cracked at 59 :wacko:

 

[Viktor]

I think the general level of education for primary level is declining...I guess it depends on the school too..
since the sixties the competency of spelling has been declining....you would never ever have seen spelling
mistakes in newspapers especially in headlines or on the main channel news text services...now it's appalling...

 

[John H]

I think the general level of education for primary level is declining...I guess it depends on the school too..
since the sixties the competency of spelling has been declining....you would never ever have seen spelling
mistakes in newspapers especially in headlines or on the main channel news text services...now it's appalling...

Rose-tinted spectacles here, I think. There have always been good and bad schools and the rate of adult illiteracy in this country shows that it was no better in the past when those adults were children. Further, when I was growing up the "Guardian" was generally known as the "Grauniad" because of its spelling mistakes (and that was one of the so-called "quality" newspapers). I also taught with geography text books that couldn't distinguish between east and west! I could go on giving examples forever but I think the point has been made.

 

[Bigpeetee]

I have mixed feelings about education.

I went to a large junior school in Liverpool with over 400 pupils in the junior section alone, in our final year there were 52 pupils in a class (1963)

We could all do our tables, read and write and 48 in that class passed the 11+

Unfortunately, i feel that there has been a drift away from getting the basic concepts, why learn tables when there's calculators? but without this foundation, there becomes a greater issue of understanding how things work or link together.

I'm not perfect, in fact it took 5 years of algebra before the penny dropped as to why we suddenly started manipulating letters, when for the previous 6 years, numbers were perfectly adequate!!

The education system seems to want to skip over the fundamentals, much to the dismay of some of the older teachers. In craft, design & technology, pupils are expected to make versions of propulsion on say a car by using say electric bands, but as they haven't gained the basic skills in the use of tools or experience in using materials, in many cases the projects failed through poor design or incorrect materials. Not the childs fault but the system.

On the other hand, do people in the service industries need to use such skills?

I'm forgetting, the ability to use ones hands is almost frowned upon.

I used to say years a go that an engineer was considered to be the poor relation to the admin staff, how true this is turning out to be.

 

[Dezi]

What do we find in todays "Mail on Sunday" , but the following. Complete with links for you access the complete article.

History, Only four out of 2,000 18-year-olds passed A-level in one Merseyside district
159 comprehensives didn't enter a single pupil for GCSE History last year
Child in Home Counties 46 times more likely to pass A-level than pupil in deprived parts of North

Experts have warned of the ‘death of History’ after shocking figures revealed the subject is becoming virtually extinct in some areas of the country.

MPs have been appalled to read new research stating that in one local authority – Knowsley, on Merseyside – just four pupils managed to pass the exam in the entire region.

The report concludes that a child growing up in the Home Counties is 46 times more likely to pass A-level History than a pupil living in deprived parts of the North.

Read more: The death of History: Experts fears after shocking figures show subject is all but extinct in some areas | Mail Online
The findings, contained in a report being published tomorrow, come amid growing alarm in Government over the lack of historical knowledge being demonstrated by school leavers.

Education Secretary Michael Gove was horrified by a recent survey that found that half of English 18 to 24-year-olds were unaware that Nelson led the British to victory at the Battle of Trafalgar, while a similar proportion did not know that the Romans built Hadrian’s Wall.

Mr Gove has ordered schools to widen their teaching away from narrow syllabuses which have been mockingly summarised as ‘Cowboys and Nazis’.

Read more: The death of History: Experts fears after shocking figures show subject is all but extinct in some areas | Mail Online

While it is just concentrating on one subject it is worrying.

A nation that forgets its past has no future. Winston Churchill
Dezi c:

 

[vwalan]

hi dezi. i may not have greed with your original post but do on this one . i have found most people today young and old have forgtten that history stops us making the same mistakes . or should . history and geography both have been forgotten. its not just the young by any means . be it modern or old history . certainly the last 100yrs as gone past with out folk taking notice of what happens . some dont even know the new names for countries never mind the old ones or why they changed names . using history and geography together todays situation is really plain to understand . but only the minority knows. might have been a bit hard on you with my earlier posts . maybe not .different angle i supose.

 

[John H]

i have found most people today young and old have forgtten that history stops us making the same mistakes . or should . history and geography both have been forgotten. its not just the young by any means . be it modern or old history . certainly the last 100yrs as gone past with out folk taking notice of what happens . some dont even know the new names for countries never mind the old ones or why they changed names . using history and geography together todays situation is really plain to understand . but only the minority knows.

Absolutely spot on, Alan - I think there is a good case for making subjects like history compulsory for anybody who seeks to rule. In many ways, it is far more important to understand the past (so we don't repeat the mistakes) and understanding what makes other people tick (many of todays problems stem from cultures not understanding each other) than it is to learn tables (not that I'm saying that isn't important too).

 

[John H]

A nation that forgets its past has no future. Winston Churchill

Probably the wisest words he ever uttered - and, at the risk of starting another argument, he was a passionate believer in a united Europe and Human Rights legislation too!

 

[Dezi]

Probably the wisest words he ever uttered - and, at the risk of starting another argument, he was a passionate believer in a united Europe and Human Rights legislation too!

I think I am correct in saying "he was a passionate believer in the European union, but without us"

Dezi

 

[Bigpeetee]

Did Germany not teach history between the two wars? Otherwise they would have learned a few lessons the first time round.

 

[John H]

Did Germany not teach history between the two wars? Otherwise they would have learned a few lessons the first time round.

I don' think I said that teaching everyone history would solve all the problems - but its a good starting point.

 

[John H]

I think I am correct in saying "he was a passionate believer in the European union, but without us"

Dezi

How can there be union without everybody being united? I know that the current crop of Eurosceptics are keen to push the line you suggest but I have never seen nor read anything uttered by Churchill himself that supports this view - and you might say that if he wanted Europe to be united without us he could have just sat back and let Hitler achieve it. Doesn't ring true somehow - unless you know differently

 

[vwalan]

certainly we never learnt much . it wasthe firstworld war that started the cotton and wool industry upping sticks to the otherside of the world causing the 30,s deprecion.
shame we didnt join up with the germans second time round instead of just about bankrupting us with a war.
come on we declared war on germany because it invaded poland .then let russia have it afterwards .russia was more of an enemy than germany. before the second world war.
and still we waste money on wars . never learn.

 

[John H]

certainly we never learnt much . it wasthe firstworld war that started the cotton and wool industry upping sticks to the otherside of the world causing the 30,s deprecion.
shame we didnt join up with the germans second time round instead of just about bankrupting us with a war.
come on we declared war on germany because it invaded poland .then let russia have it afterwards .russia was more of an enemy than germany. before the second world war.
and still we waste money on wars . never learn.

Having agreed totally with your previous post I am going to violently disagree with this one! Wars are not just about money - there was the small matter of the immorality of what the Nazis were doing - and I know that Stalin was just as bad so I'm not saying the "solution" was a good one but sometimes you have to be pragmatic and use the "my enemies enemy is my friend" argument. After all, without Russia occupying the Germans on the Eastern Front I don't think there would have been a hope in hell of us winning the thing. You could say, therefore, that the choice was between the whole of Europe run by a meglomaniac or just the eastern bit of it run by a different meglomaniac - simplistic, I know, but I cannot believe you really think that we should have joined up with the Nazis.

 

[vwalan]

i think we should have used more influance . i think the declaration of war against the nazis just encouraged them. it wasnt justus i dont think most of europe really nderstood what was really happening. i ,m not for what they did but even the war didnt stop it happening. it still happened .
but its not just that the empire i believe started to fall because of our lack of funds at the end of ww1 . it paved the way for our disaster.
i also think many here would like to kick out all folk that cant produce real uk blood . weknow coloureds ,gypsys etc already arent liked by many . never mind alternative religions. are we about to be a new form of nazis . our prime minister said we are a christian country. he didnt say kick the rest out but it could be believed by many.