The Price of Processed

[maingate]

I recently took myself off of Statins. I was getting giddy spells all the time and suffered from Gout.

Since stopping the Statins, both have gone and I've never felt better.

I was on Simvastatin for a long time and read a very long thread on Motorhome Facts about them causing many side effects. One of them was joint pain. As most of my joints are knackered, I was unaware that this Statin was the root cause of my aches and pains. It was a big problem as we walk the dogs daily.

About 18 months ago I was sent for tests at the local Cardiology Department for Heart problems. I was able to convince the Cardiologist to recommend a different Statin as my GP would not change them (Simvastatin are a lot cheaper than the others). Since changing over to Atovorstatin, my aches and pains have reduced significantly, the Simvastatin HAD been the problem.

So if any of you are on Simvastatin, change to something else.

 

[Channa]

It's becoming increasingly recognised that the gut (small and large intestine) is perhaps the most important organ of the immune sytem. It constantly has to discriminate "friend from foe" not just in the food we consume but from the presence of the trillions of bacteria that reside inside our guts, referred to as our microbiome (or microbiota). Each of us has a unique profile of bacteria made up of many different species (mostly good but some bad), which we usually acquire during vaginal birth and from our immediate, early life environment i.e. mum's skin, etc, so that by the age of 2ish our microbiome's are established and will stay pretty much the same throughout life but becoming less diverse (fewer species) as we age. It is thought that the microbiome is evolutionarily important for maximising the extraction of calories from plant-based, complex carbohydrates as we don't produce the enzymes that can digest these.

There is increasing evidence suggesting that a disturbed microbiome (an oversimplification but too many bad bacteria), a condition referred to as dysbiosis, is associated with many autoimmune conditions. While an association doesn't prove cause and effect, this intriguing observation is receiving a lot of attention. Indeed, there have been some amazing results from experiments with faecal transplantation, particularly in patients suffering from Crohn's disease or Ulcerative colitis (inflammatory bowel diseases), where cure rates approached 90%. This might gross some people out but faecal transplantation involves a course of antibiotics to wipe out the existing microbiome prior to the injection of a healthy donor's poo through a tube into the patient's gut leading to the colonisation of the gut with the new, healthy microbiome and a resolution of the inflammatory condition.

Interestingly, it has been shown that obese individuals have a different microbiome profile from lean individuals leading to the suggestion that their microbiomes may be more efficient at extracting calories. An experiment in mice tantalisingly showed that transplanting the microbiome from obese mice into lean mice induced obesity in those mice despite their diets remaining the same. Unfortunately I can't recall if they did the reverse and cured an obese mouse by transplanting a "lean" microbiome.

These observations have led to a rise in the USA of home experimenters performing faecal transplantations on themselves. I think you can even buy a kit off the internet but this is something I wouldn't recommend. Faeces also contains a lot of undesirables including viruses and those used in the lab-based studies have been extensively purified and profiled. There are of course alternatives, eating a diet containing lots of fibre promotes the growth of good bacteria, there are lots of live yoghurts (probiotics) available but there is still a question mark at how effective they are at (a) reaching the gut and (b) colonising it, there are also complex carbohydrates (prebiotics) available that function like fibre, you can also buy synbiotics which are combinations of probiotics and prebiotics.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge I for one find it fascinating, as I am sure so do many others ....please keep posting

Channa

 

[Obanboy666]

I was on Simvastatin for a long time and read a very long thread on Motorhome Facts about them causing many side effects. One of them was joint pain. As most of my joints are knackered, I was unaware that this Statin was the root cause of my aches and pains. It was a big problem as we walk the dogs daily.

About 18 months ago I was sent for tests at the local Cardiology Department for Heart problems. I was able to convince the Cardiologist to recommend a different Statin as my GP would not change them (Simvastatin are a lot cheaper than the others). Since changing over to Atovorstatin, my aches and pains have reduced significantly, the Simvastatin HAD been the problem.

So if any of you are on Simvastatin, change to something else.

Interesting, I'm on anti inflammatory tablets for my knackered knees and was put on statins and aspirins last year when my GP thought I may have circulation problems.
The consultant checked me over, no circulation problems. Mentioned the statins and aspirins to my GP who said just stay on them they will do no harm ???
I've had the 'runs' for want of a better word for 4 days, something I never normally get and a quick google search informed me it can be a side effect of statins.
Reckon I will give it another day then visit my GP and discuss stopping the statins and aspirins.

 

[delicagirl]

It's becoming increasingly recognised that the gut (small and large intestine) is perhaps the most important organ of the immune sytem. It constantly has to discriminate "friend from foe" not just in the food we consume but from the presence of the trillions of bacteria that reside inside our guts, referred to as our microbiome (or microbiota). Each of us has a unique profile of bacteria made up of many different species (mostly good but some bad), which we usually acquire during vaginal birth and from our immediate, early life environment i.e. mum's skin, etc, so that by the age of 2ish our microbiome's are established and will stay pretty much the same throughout life but becoming less diverse (fewer species) as we age. It is thought that the microbiome is evolutionarily important for maximising the extraction of calories from plant-based, complex carbohydrates as we don't produce the enzymes that can digest these.

There is increasing evidence suggesting that a disturbed microbiome (an oversimplification but too many bad bacteria), a condition referred to as dysbiosis, is associated with many autoimmune conditions. While an association doesn't prove cause and effect, this intriguing observation is receiving a lot of attention. Indeed, there have been some amazing results from experiments with faecal transplantation, particularly in patients suffering from Crohn's disease or Ulcerative colitis (inflammatory bowel diseases), where cure rates approached 90%. This might gross some people out but faecal transplantation involves a course of antibiotics to wipe out the existing microbiome prior to the injection of a healthy donor's poo through a tube into the patient's gut leading to the colonisation of the gut with the new, healthy microbiome and a resolution of the inflammatory condition.

Interestingly, it has been shown that obese individuals have a different microbiome profile from lean individuals leading to the suggestion that their microbiomes may be more efficient at extracting calories. An experiment in mice tantalisingly showed that transplanting the microbiome from obese mice into lean mice induced obesity in those mice despite their diets remaining the same. Unfortunately I can't recall if they did the reverse and cured an obese mouse by transplanting a "lean" microbiome.

These observations have led to a rise in the USA of home experimenters performing faecal transplantations on themselves. I think you can even buy a kit off the internet but this is something I wouldn't recommend. Faeces also contains a lot of undesirables including viruses and those used in the lab-based studies have been extensively purified and profiled. There are of course alternatives, eating a diet containing lots of fibre promotes the growth of good bacteria, there are lots of live yoghurts (probiotics) available but there is still a question mark at how effective they are at (a) reaching the gut and (b) colonising it, there are also complex carbohydrates (prebiotics) available that function like fibre, you can also buy synbiotics which are combinations of probiotics and prebiotics.

A few years ago in desperation because i was so poorly a friend recommended a De-tox week and i researched this and finally did it. The food intake all week 6 vegetable smoothies per day. They were delicious because of the different combinations, tasted sweet and very satisfying and filling. Various supplements were also ingested to assist the body to evacuate its waste and heal itself.

The week also included gentle exercise, some yoga stretching, walks, lots of rest and quiet times, and a really peaceful soothing atmosphere.

The part of the treatment that had the most impact on my body was the 3 colonic irrigations which i received during that week. I did a fair bit of reading at the Centre and realised that when we eat a low-fibre diet, the digested food which is making its way to the outside world, is not the correct consistency and not all of it reaches the loo - some of it clings to the walls of the intestines and bowels and clogs up the system, but worst of all - it starts fermenting !!! In some obese and very unhealthy individuals 40lbs of black sticky tarry toxic "sludge" can be evacuated by these colonics. Whilst you are having the colonic you can look at the matter you are getting rid of - i didn't want to look. But the therapist can tell a lot about your lifestyle and diet by looking at your poo. Gillian O'Keefe was right !

Having got rid of this extraneous toxic burden, i felt a huge sense of relief, and had a sense of a lighter body - and my morning loo visits were altogether a fresher and less odiferous experience after that.

It took me a while to get my head around all this, but, it was not a painful experience, a slight discomfort thats all.

If your digestive system feels sluggish and turgid, through eating too much processed food and chemicals, then a colonic, or two, would certainly "freshen up the system."

 

[delicagirl]

Interesting, I'm on anti inflammatory tablets for my knackered knees and was put on statins and aspirins last year when my GP thought I may have circulation problems.
The consultant checked me over, no circulation problems. Mentioned the statins and aspirins to my GP who said just stay on them they will do no harm ???
I've had the 'runs' for want of a better word for 4 days, something I never normally get and a quick google search informed me it can be a side effect of statins.
Reckon I will give it another day then visit my GP and discuss stopping the statins and aspirins.

Statins are the subject of a lot of controversy


5 Reasons Not to Take Statins - Health.com

There are much healthier ways to reduce cholesterol - boringly - same old same old - lose weight exercise and eat properly.... but it works and with no drug input into our body

 

[Obanboy666]

Statins are the subject of a lot of controversy


5 Reasons Not to Take Statins - Health.com

There are much healthier ways to reduce cholesterol - boringly - same old same old - lose weight exercise and eat properly.... but it works and with no drug input into our body

Strange she put me on them, as my cholesterol was and still is well within normal levels. I do all the things you mention - I have lost 4st, bmi within healthy limits. Now eat far more healthier and dog walk 2 x 60 minutes a day.
Definitely going to discuss them with my GP.

 

[bellars]

worst of all - it starts fermenting !!!

I'm not sure about the benefits of colonic irrigation, it's not something I've investigated, but it's great it made you feel better. However, I would say that there are 3 mechanisms behind the massive health benefits of consuming more fibre;

1. It decreases transit time (time taken for a meal to be digested and excreted), decreasing the exposure time of the cells lining the gut to potentially toxic chemicals.
2. It promotes the growth of good bacteria
3. The good bacteria are good because they ferment the complex carbohydrates in fibre producing chemicals called short chain fatty acids, which have a multitude of beneficial effects in the gut cells including "calming" the immune system, causing (pre-) cancerous cells to commit suicide, etc.

In some obese and very unhealthy individuals 40lbs of black sticky tarry toxic "sludge" can be evacuated by these colonics.

That seems an awful lot of material!

 

[yorkieowl]

If your digestive system feels sluggish and turgid, through eating too much processed food and chemicals, then a colonic, or two, would certainly "freshen up the system."

Just a word of warning, this is not recommended if you have a UC, or any bowel problems as it can exacerbate the problems.

Thanks bellars, thats very interesting, my mum had UC (nearly killed her), and had a collostomy bag which couldn't be reversed for the last 35+ years of her life, it really impacted on her life and would have been fantastic if there had been an alternative. As Channa says, interesting stuff.

 

[delicagirl]

Strange she put me on them, as my cholesterol was and still is well within normal levels. I do all the things you mention - I have lost 4st, bmi within healthy limits. Now eat far more healthier and dog walk 2 x 60 minutes a day.
Definitely going to discuss them with my GP.

Well done on the 4 stones.... thats a chunk of weight to lose.......do let us know how you get on at the docs

 

[delicagirl]

I'm not sure about the benefits of colonic irrigation, it's not something I've investigated, but it's great it made you feel better. However, I would say that there are 3 mechanisms behind the massive health benefits of consuming more fibre;

1. It decreases transit time (time taken for a meal to be digested and excreted), decreasing the exposure time of the cells lining the gut to potentially toxic chemicals.
2. It promotes the growth of good bacteria
3. The good bacteria are good because they ferment the complex carbohydrates in fibre producing chemicals called short chain fatty acids, which have a multitude of beneficial effects in the gut cells including "calming" the immune system, causing (pre-) cancerous cells to commit suicide, etc.



That seems an awful lot of material!

Much of my knowledge about this came from books i read at the DeTox clinic and most were written by Medics who specialised in this area - the photos were not pretty !!! Some of the research included weight and body measurements before and after an irrigation, and the excreted matter was also weighed. 40lbs is a rare scenario.

 

[bellars]

Unfortunately, the scientific/medical community is split on the benefits and risks of statins. There are some that think they are the best preventive medicine available, costing literally pennies and shown to lower cholesterol (contributing to a decrease in CVD) but they may also have cancer preventive properties, therefore to them the benefits outweigh the risks. These medics suggest that everyone over the age of about 50 should take them. Others, however, argue that the population shouldn't be medicated in order to prevent a relatively small proportion of disease, especially when there are clearly side effects, i.e. the risks outweigh the benefits. If you are on statins (I'm not) I wouldn't stop taking them without talking to your GP.

There is a margarine brand and some yoghurt drinks that contain benecol that is proven to function like statins in reducing cholesterol.

In my opinion, aspirin is a miracle drug. There is a lot evidence showing it prevents CVD (heart attacks and strokes) and cancer. It's cheap and safe (it can cause gastric bleeding if taken on an empty stomach). I regularly (not every day) take a quarter of a tablet.

 

[yorkieowl]

In my opinion, aspirin is a miracle drug. There is a lot evidence showing it prevents CVD (heart attacks and strokes) and cancer. It's cheap and safe (it can cause gastric bleeding if taken on an empty stomach). I regularly (not every day) take a quarter of a tablet.

Unfortunately for me I'm allergic to aspirin, and apparently there is no substitute (according to my GP).

 

[delicagirl]

Just a word of warning, this is not recommended if you have a UC, or any bowel problems as it can exacerbate the problems.

Thanks bellars, thats very interesting, my mum had UC (nearly killed her), and had a collostomy bag which couldn't be reversed for the last 35+ years of her life, it really impacted on her life and would have been fantastic if there had been an alternative. As Channa says, interesting stuff.

Any responsible irrigation practitioner will do a full medical history before commencing. If your body is not suitable for the invasive water cleanser there are herbal remedies, which when taken orally, can also loosen and strip the clinging toxic material from the insides of the intestines and the body then gets rid of its waste in the normal way - it takes a little longer.

I forgot to say that after the irrigation, then taking pro-biotic tablets for a while will replace the good bacteria which has also been flushed away.


Bellars - i would be interested in your view of this science - which is where i went Benefits of our Cleanse Retreat and Colonic Irrigation : Cleansing for Change

 

[bellars]

Bellars - i would be interested in your view of this science - which is where i went Benefits of our Cleanse Retreat and Colonic Irrigation : Cleansing for Change

Sorry, but I don't think you're going to like my opinion but that's all it is (my opinion that is). I think this is pseudo-science at best and criminally misleading at worst. My specific area of scientific investigation was studying the role of diet, exercise and aging in colorectal cancer risk and so I collaborated mostly with gastroenterologists. They have never mentioned the phenomenon of mucoidal plaque and having regularly attended the colonoscopy clinic to collect samples, it's something I have never witnessed. Here is a picture from a routine scope, note how "clean" the bowel lining is with no evidence of black, tarry goo. I would say though that patients take powerful laxatives prior to being scoped.



The normal bowel is an amazing, self cleaning organ. The cells lining the gut produce mucous, which is present as two layers. The layer closest to the tissue is relatively thick and very viscous, which prevents bacteria "swimming" through it to contact the cells and triggering an immune response. There is also a looser, less viscous mucous layer above the thicker layer, which sloughs off acting as a lubricant for the passing faecal material.

 

[delicagirl]

Sorry, but I don't think you're going to like my opinion but that's all it is (my opinion that is). I think this is pseudo-science at best and criminally misleading at worst. My specific area of scientific investigation was studying the role of diet, exercise and aging in colorectal cancer risk and so I collaborated mostly with gastroenterologists. They have never mentioned the phenomenon of mucoidal plaque and having regularly attended the colonoscopy clinic to collect samples, it's something I have never witnessed. Here is a picture from a routine scope, note how "clean" the bowel lining is with no evidence of black, tarry goo. I would say though that patients take powerful laxatives prior to being scoped.

View attachment 48383

The normal bowel is an amazing, self cleaning organ. The cells lining the gut produce mucous, which is present as two layers. The layer closest to the tissue is relatively thick and very viscous, which prevents bacteria "swimming" through it to contact the cells and triggering an immune response. There is also a looser, less viscous mucous layer above the thicker layer, which sloughs off acting as a lubricant for the passing faecal material.

Thank you very much for your comments - i had forgotten about mucoidal plaque and so did did a swift google which confirm your views - which i accept as having much more authority than the owners of the retreat i went to.

I don't believe the detox did me any harm, i ate well for a week, rested and stayed calm and it gave me a significantly positive psychological boost at a difficult time in my life. It was an expensive way to get that. !! But it made me start looking at my lack of good health, my ill body and fmy poor food intake and i believe that was the start of my journey back to health.

 

[bellars]

Thank you very much for your comments - i had forgotten about mucoidal plaque and so did did a swift google which confirm your views - which i accept as having much more authority than the owners of the retreat i went to.

I don't believe the detox did me any harm, i ate well for a week, rested and stayed calm and it gave me a significantly positive psychological boost at a difficult time in my life. It was an expensive way to get that. !! But it made me start looking at my lack of good health, my ill body and fmy poor food intake and i believe that was the start of my journey back to health.

That's great, that is all you can ask of any treatment.

 

[bellars]

Butter and cream therefore historically are staple ingredients in the kitchen, a lot of sauces use them as a base etc. But this leads me back to the question How come we have the French Paradox with lower incidence of obesity and heart diseases etc. I accept there are arguments it is an illusion in the context of how data is collected, that is a discussion in itself.

I suppose what I am trying to suggest or asking is whether there is a link between our modern lifestyles and some of the illness people suffer from.

Does it induce a chemical reaction within the body that the chemical structure of enzymes etc become compromised, and that's what is leading to the problems.

I suspect Bellars is the person best qualified to answer that.

All interesting stuff

Channa

Red wine consumption used to be the favourite explanation for the French paradox. Red wine contains chemicals called polyphenols that can lower blood pressure and inhibit some metabolic processes. One such polyphenol called Reseveratrol received a lot of attention a few years ago because it was found to decrease the activity of an enzyme that is also decreased in various organisms (yeast, mice, nematodes, etc) during caloric restriction (restricting the intake of calories in these organisms leads to dramatic increases in their lifespans). Therefore, some unscrupulous individuals started peddling resveratrol as the elixir of life.

Polyphenols that are proven to lower blood pressure (vaso-dilatory) are also present in fruit, tea (particularly green tea) and high cocoa chocolate. They are generally bitter and astringent (dry your mouth out).

Of course, there are many plausible theories to explain various population-based phenomena and eating the main meal at lunch time, a less stressful lifestyle, etc are equally valid.

Much of the scientific evidence for lifestyle effects on health come from population-based cohort studies (epidemiology), in which dietary/lifestyle components of large numbers of individuals are collected together with health outcomes. Statistics-based analyses are then performed to determine if specific health outcomes associate with specific dietary/lifestyle components. While these can be informative, particularly those based on very large numbers of individuals, they are ultimately only indicative of an association (not cause and effect) and are plagued by confounding factors e.g. people who eat healthily tend to exercise more, etc, etc, making it difficult to tease out clear associations. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to study the effects of diet and lifestyle on health for a number of reasons. Unlike a drug, it's very hard (impossible) to do clinical trials on lifestyles. The effects of a change in lifestyle on health usually take a long time to be of a significant magnitude to be measurable. Finally, what is health anyway and how do you measure it?

"I suppose what I am trying to suggest or asking is whether there is a link between our modern lifestyles and some of the illness people suffer from." - definitely, the evidence for a detrimental effect of a western lifestyle on numerous chronic diseases is overwhelming e.g. here are a couple of figs. The first one shows the incidence of colorectal cancer in various regions of the world, clearly CRC is a western disease. The second shows the rise in incidence in Japan and mirrors the adoption of a western lifestyle.



edit: the second figure hasn't come across well, the red line is CRC incidence in the UK, blue line is Japan and the y-axis is male cases per 100,000 per year. The x-axis should read years from 1960 to 1990.

 

[Channa]

Thank you for answering the question.

I notice with interest the "spikes" between male and female incidence.

If we were to take Australia and Japan for example, would the differences be partly the effect of menopause,( my point chemical changes in the body) and perhaps Japanese women opposed to their male counterparts have retained a more traditional lifestyle ?.( particularly dietary)

This might interest people, earlier this year I was involved with a restaurant and Head Chef decided to revisit the menu which that in itself is not unusual, What was unusual is I was 18 years the elder of Adam head chef and TJ the third chef is 22.

Predictably I am all butter, cream, wine, Bordelaise sauces, etc Bob the owner 72 loved it etc. Adam bought in big style some of his ideas far more contemporary which I would expect. TJ meantime was like having a discussion with a dietician and nutrition expert !

I don't know if this is typical, but if it is and I suspect the case, There is a raft of new breed chefs on the horizon.

Not for the first time recently , I felt a bit of a dinosaur.

Channa

 

[bellars]

I notice with interest the "spikes" between male and female incidence.

If we were to take Australia and Japan for example, would the differences be partly the effect of menopause,( my point chemical changes in the body) and perhaps Japanese women opposed to their male counterparts have retained a more traditional lifestyle ?.( particularly dietary)


Channa

Unfortunately there's no definitive answer to explain the difference in incidence of CRC (and most chronic diseases) between men and women. There is some evidence that oestrogen may offer some protection and there have been studies investigating the health benefits of oestrogen-like chemicals present in some plants like soy beans. It has also been suggested that men tend to adopt a more "risky" lifestyle. You're right about Japan though, women there definitely eat a more traditional diet (high in fish and soy).