SORNing your vehicle whilst on a campsite.

[John H]

There certainly are many things you don't understand and , clearly, the law ranks among them. I have no problem with the info that el veterano posted and it does not conflict with what I posted. Your examples do not relate to caravan sites; they relate to car parks. You wouldn't be trying to divert attention again would you?

 

[John H]

[No message]

 

[John H]

I'm getting bored now - yes you are talking nonsense and before you respond again I suggest you actually READ the references you make. As I said before, the examples you quote refer to certain car parks. There is NO reference to caravan sites in them. The only reference to caravan sites is the one I posted, in which it is clear that the law has determined they are places to which the public has access and therefore count as places in which the RTA applies. If you wish to ignore that, then fine - take the consequences. But please don't try to continue to insist that black is white when the courts have determined that it is clearly black.

 

[John H]

Try reading the reference again - it clearly states that there would have been an offence if the prosecution had used the phrase "area to which the public had access" instead of "road". I have put absolutely NO personal interpretation on anything. I have made no assumptions. I have simply reported what the courts have decided. Because you don't like what they have said, you have decided to pretend they didn't say it. You really are proving yourself to be a bit of a pratt, aren't you?

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

It looks like the children are overtired again, is it past their bedtime? :sleep-027:

 

[El Veterano]

Nurse, he's out of bed again!

Oooooh Matron!!!!!

 

[El Veterano]

All this toing and frowing seems to have (nearly) answered the question in the original post - that is so far as the UK is concerned - can we now move on to how this might be interpreted in French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc etc Greek, Slovakian etc etc law as per the original post. Or was that on another forum - I get so confused these days........:bow:

 

[John H]

I only resort to personal insults when people who are supposedly intelligent repeatedly refuse to actually read what either others or they themselves have quoted! I HAVE said that I have no problems with what El Veterano posted - primarily because he quoted legal decisions rather than the random thoughts that you prefer to rely on. His links were entirely valid and related to car parks. The ONLY person who has posted links to court decisions on caravan sites is me. They are not my thoughts; I have passed no opinion on them - they are the decisions of the court and I have passed them on for the purpose of informing others. Once others have read them they can make up their own minds about what decisions they wish to take. It is interesting, is it not, that you are the only person that has tried to argue with that?

And have you not thought that the reason why others have "liked" my posts is because they agree that they are sensible? You are becoming paranoid. This is not about you; it is about answering the question originally posted - which I have done and which only you have questioned. I have had a great day, enjoying a barbecue and good wine in the company of good friends, so I am not inclined to sink to your level but I will say this - grow up, for goodness sake!

 

[Polar Bear]

All this toing and frowing seems to have (nearly) answered the question in the original post - that is so far as the UK is concerned - can we now move on to how this might be interpreted in French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc etc Greek, Slovakian etc etc law as per the original post. Or was that on another forum - I get so confused these days........:bow:

I was in an aire in Bellrigarde, Spain two years ago when the guarda civil came around. they asked to see my passport, drivers licence, insurance, log book. MOT certificate and looked at my tax disc. I don't know what they would have done if the docs weren't in order. I wondered if they could have done anything and spoke to a Spanish friend about it, He thought that Aires belong to the council so they can take action if you don't comply?

 

[shortcircuit]

I think this sums up why many will not participate due to your attitude. I "Like" because I agree with the content and have no need to participate particularly to end up the brunt of your ego.

 

[John H]

All this toing and frowing seems to have (nearly) answered the question in the original post - that is so far as the UK is concerned - can we now move on to how this might be interpreted in French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc etc Greek, Slovakian etc etc law as per the original post. Or was that on another forum - I get so confused these days........:bow:

Hi

EU regulations state that vehicles have to comply with the law of their home country. Thus, if something is legal in the UK and you have a UK registered vehicle then it is legal in the rest of the EU. However, the reality is never as clear as the theory. If I may digress for a moment, it is arguable whether A-frames are legal or not in the UK and because of that uncertainty the police in France and Spain are pulling up Brits (and others) with A-frames. I have not heard of anyone in the UK being stopped for towing with an A-frame but because it is not entirely clear whether it is legal then other EU countries have applied their own rules. So nothing is as simple as it might first appear.

However, I believe that the question of insurance is significant here and whichever country the OP is in he is probably insured via a UK company, who will apply whatever rules they have included in their contract. Thus, anyone considering SORNing their vehicle on a campsite - either in the UK or elsewhere - would be well-advised to talk to their Insurance company.

 

[Tezza33]

Hi

, it is arguable whether A-frames are legal or not in the UK .

A frames are legal in this Country, there is no argument about it apart from back room Lawyers, try looking at what the 'Government' say

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment

A-frames and dollies

If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.

If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer.

In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply.

Read more in the ‘A’ frames and dollies’ factsheet.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-safety-standards-information-sheets

September 2011

“A”- Frames
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g.
motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in
legislation as a
trailer

. As a consequence the car and “A”-frame are required to meet the technical
requirements for trailers when used on the road in
Great Britain. These requirements are contained
within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986
(SI 1986/1078) as amended
(C&U) and the
Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989
(SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).
Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceedi
ng 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted.
However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitt
ed with a braking system, then all brakes in that
system must operate correctly.
The regulations do not include design constraints on how this
should be achieved but, for example, it could be met
by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the
brake system of the towing vehicl
e or by automatic inertia (overr
un) operation via the towing hitch.
Inertia systems can only be used for trailers wi
th a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.
Regulations 15 and 16 of C&U set out the brak
ing requirements - including minimum braking
efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certai
n age exemptions, the regulat
ion requires the braking
system to comply with the construction,
fitting and performance requirements of European
Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its va
rious amending Directives. Alternatively the
braking system can comply with the
corresponding UNECE R
egulation No.13.09.
In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle
do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e.
servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once
the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a
remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir,alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without
imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult toachieve on an “A” frame using an inertia (overrun) device.
Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximummass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able toretain some residual steering.
Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including theuse of triangular red reflectors. There wouldbe further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.
From the above I hope it is clear that we believethe use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

If the 'big' Clubs actually backed A frames much like European Clubs back their members instead of shaking their heads and saying it is a grey area we would have more clarity

 

[Polar Bear]

A frames are legal in this Country, there is no argument about it apart from back room Lawyers, try looking at what the 'Government' say

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment

If the 'big' Clubs actually backed A frames much like European Clubs back their members instead of shaking their heads and saying it is a grey area we would have more clarity

Good link.
Noticed this though?
quote;
The use of “A”- Frames in other EU countries
The Vienna Convention is the international law that governs this issue. We cannot comment on the interpretation of this by other European countries and whether they permit or prohibit the use of A-frames in their national traffic. Anyone intending to travel through a European country and using an A-frame to tow a vehicle

 

[Tezza33]

Good link.
Noticed this though?
quote;
The use of “A”- Frames in other EU countries
The Vienna Convention is the international law that governs this issue. We cannot comment on the interpretation of this by other European countries and whether they permit or prohibit the use of A-frames in their national traffic. Anyone intending to travel through a European country and using an A-frame to tow a vehicle

I have done it without problem for over thirty years, I have been stopped and checked but allowed to continue unhindered in Germany, Spain and Belgium but I stopped doing it a few years ago when Spain started getting awkward again, simply not worth the hassle plus my travel itineraries changed, I don't want to stay in one place long enough to need a car

 

[John H]

A frames are legal in this Country, there is no argument about it apart from back room Lawyers, try looking at what the 'Government' say

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment

If the 'big' Clubs actually backed A frames much like European Clubs back their members instead of shaking their heads and saying it is a grey area we would have more clarity

I'm afraid there is argument about it and the link you posted confirms that! The guidance document you refer to says "we believe it is legal"......."but it is only the courts that can reach a definitive interpretation" Since no case has been brought to the UK courts it remains unclear. This is how the police in France and Spain are able to stop and fine people using A-frames.

 

[Tezza33]

I'm afraid there is argument about it and the link you posted confirms that! The guidance document you refer to says "we believe it is legal"......."but it is only the courts that can reach a definitive interpretation" Since no case has been brought to the UK courts it remains unclear. This is how the police in France and Spain are able to stop and fine people using A-frames.

Which is why I stopped taking my car over there but France has only just joined Spain in stopping motorhomers who are using A frames, they are not fining or even making them uncouple yet, my feelings are if they don't want me to do it then as a visitor to their Country I should not argue and obey their rules, there might be arguments but it is still legal in the UK until somebody proves it otherwise

 

[FULL TIMER]

Back to the original question this is taken from the Caravan Club rules

"13 Site roads

a. Normal highway rules apply on sites. Please follow the principles of road safety. You must have a full current driving licence and insurance for the vehicle driven. Cars and motorhomes must have a valid road fund licence"

clearly they have decided that all vehicles must be road legal whilst on site, can't see no mention of it so far in the C&CC rules.

 

[Tezza33]

Very interesting but in all the years of using them has anybody been checked, there are only two bodies who can decide the legalities of this and that is the DVLA and your own Insurance Company, my Insurance Company are happy and the DVLA do not specify clearly, I would not stop on a CC site for more than a few days so not relevant to me anyway

 

[FULL TIMER]

I think I've been a member of both clubs for over ten years and have never used a club site but we do use CS / CL sites extensively as we live in our truck, I do know there is a clause in our insurance that says the vehicle must have valid road fund licence for the term of the insurance so it's worth while checking out the small print if anyone is thinking of sorning a vehicle, it would hardly be worth doing on most campsites anyway due to the 28 day rule.

 

[FULL TIMER]

Just looking at the new regs as regards to taxing my van and as I read it you can now tax it monthly – so if you are on a campsite for more than a month what’s to stop you SORNing the van and saving a few bob?

PS is SORNing a verb or have I just made it up

as I mentioned a post back check with your insurance, mine states that the vehicle must have valid RFL for the duration of the insurance term.

are you sure about the taxing monthly, I thought you could only tax for either six or twelve months as normal but with various methods of paying including monthly DD, with a lot of site including both of the main clubs campsites you cannot stay for more than 28 consecutive days anyway.