Sleeping in vehicles

n brown said:
''sleeping abroad'' is illegal under the vagrancy act. but they do have to offer you a place to kip -if you don't go ,you're nicked
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The 'place to kip' was introduced by the Vagrancy Act 1935, -- but before they can spring that on you, you first have to meet the criteria to be deemed a 'rogue and vagabond' under the Vagrancy Act 1824.
n brown said:
18 month suspended first time - they take it quite seriously
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That seems a bit harsh as to meet the criteria you both have to be unable to give good account of yourself and have no visible means of subsistence (and other conditions). Note this is 'and' not 'or'. "Good account of oneself" is subjective and hence open to interpretation by the face of authority you're dealing with, but "visible means of subsistence" seems more straightforward. So, if you have access to funds (credit/debit card, bank account in credit, cash in you pocket) you should be in the clear AFAICT.

Interestingly, under the 1935 legislation, "a person lodging under a tent or in a cart or waggon with or in which he travels" cannot be deemed a 'rogue and vagabond' and so a motorhomer sleeping in their van cannot fall foul of the Vagrancy Act!
 
If the sign says no sleeping then I would think that applies to anyone in the van/car. But.....as Trev says, how can they prove that? How can the attendant know that someone is inside? If they can hear them moving about then
 
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One of the deliver drivers that comes to our shop starts work at 4.30 am got a ticket for sleeping in his van after he stooped for a break when he was on his way back to his yard fine was 60 euros for sleeping in a layby what a bloody joke I thought if you fill tired you should always pull over and rest
 
kenspain said:
One of the deliver drivers that comes to our shop starts work at 4.30 am got a ticket for sleeping in his van after he stooped for a break when he was on his way back to his yard fine was 60 euros for sleeping in a layby what a bloody joke I thought if you fill tired you should always pull over and rest
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Out of interest was he in a marked or unmarked van?
 
chrismilo said:
Tiredness kill so we get rammed down our throats on motorways
Yet on the services you are only allowed 2 hour fact lot of good !
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What you mean is 2hrs FREE. You can stay as long as you want as many lorry drivers do. If you are so tired simply do the same as them and pay. Big difference.
 
Fazerloz said:
What you mean is 2hrs FREE. You can stay as long as you want as many lorry drivers do. If you are so tired simply do the same as them and pay. Big difference.
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I unfortunately forgot time a few weeks ago when the electric step wouldn’t retract. Was late and raining so drove under forecourt canopy, filled up with gas and diesel then set about trying to get the step in. Including original stop for a coffee, burger and dog walk into breakdown fix it took a few minutes over 3 hours.
Of course I got a PCN not long after. Appealed but because I didn’t call anyone out to the breakdown I had no report or invoice. In spite of informing them forecourt staff were aware, okay with where I was working on it and provided free coffee my appeal was turned down as not an acceptable reason. Ho hum
 
Fazerloz said:
What you mean is 2hrs FREE. You can stay as long as you want as many lorry drivers do. If you are so tired simply do the same as them and pay. Big difference.
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We have paid and stopped at Motorway Services.Not cheap but its an option if one is tired.And whilst there we observed two vehicles transferring a parcel from boot to boot which looked a bit suspicious so can make for an interesting stopover.
 
Nabsim said:
I unfortunately forgot time a few weeks ago when the electric step wouldn’t retract. Was late and raining so drove under forecourt canopy, filled up with gas and diesel then set about trying to get the step in. Including original stop for a coffee, burger and dog walk into breakdown fix it took a few minutes over 3 hours.
Of course I got a PCN not long after. Appealed but because I didn’t call anyone out to the breakdown I had no report or invoice. In spite of informing them forecourt staff were aware, okay with where I was working on it and provided free coffee my appeal was turned down as not an acceptable reason. Ho hum
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Do you have a further avenue for appeal? For example, if you just wrote to the ticket issuer (an 'informal' appeal), you might have the right to a tribunal or to lodge a formal appeal. If so, it could be worth pointing out that, although the vehicle could move under its own power and thus would not be covered by a breakdown service, it would have been unlawful to drive it with the step dangerously projecting from the side of the vehicle. If it goes to court, my best guess is that it would be down to the ticket issuer to show that, on the balance of probability, you are being untruthful (isn't that an accusation of perjury, and so very serious?) Citizen's Advice suggest that breaking down is a reason not to be penalised -- so presumably the vehicle being unroadworthy until the step was retracted would also be one. Whatever, although you didn't require a breakdown service, you have a witness -- the forecourt staff.

Couple of CAB links than might help:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...g-parking-tickets/appealing-a-parking-ticket/
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...king-tickets/when-to-appeal-a-parking-ticket/

Good luck, and HTH
 
GeoffL said:
Do you have a further avenue for appeal? For example, if you just wrote to the ticket issuer (an 'informal' appeal), you might have the right to a tribunal or to lodge a formal appeal. If so, it could be worth pointing out that, although the vehicle could move under its own power and thus would not be covered by a breakdown service, it would have been unlawful to drive it with the step dangerously projecting from the side of the vehicle. If it goes to court, my best guess is that it would be down to the ticket issuer to show that, on the balance of probability, you are being untruthful (isn't that an accusation of perjury, and so very serious?) Citizen's Advice suggest that breaking down is a reason not to be penalised -- so presumably the vehicle being unroadworthy until the step was retracted would also be one. Whatever, although you didn't require a breakdown service, you have a witness -- the forecourt staff.

Couple of CAB links than might help:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...g-parking-tickets/appealing-a-parking-ticket/
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...king-tickets/when-to-appeal-a-parking-ticket/

Good luck, and HTH
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Nabsim

As Geoff has said

And CCTV is your friend i/e its all on camera so they cant argue with that.They are probably just happy to take your money.In this case I feel you could challenge the fine and get your money back
 
They said I had exhausted the appeal procedure and I paid the fine. We had a few emails back and forth and right from the start it looked unlikely I was going to get anywhere with them.
Of course I would have the option for court but if I lost that it would also have been doubled by then.
 
Check the CAB links I posted previously. If this is a private company, they have been known to lie about the appeals process. However, now that you've paid the fine you may have effectively admitted liability. But it's worth looking to something like the Consumer Action Group, Pistonheads, Money-Saving Expert, et al. for advice from people who've been there, done it and got several tee-shirts! Who knows, you might be able to (say) complain to Trading Standards about their unethical behaviour and you might find someone with a large enough axe to grind to go after them on your behalf....
 
GeoffL said:
Check the CAB links I posted previously. If this is a private company, they have been known to lie about the appeals process. However, now that you've paid the fine you may have effectively admitted liability. But it's worth looking to something like the Consumer Action Group, Pistonheads, Money-Saving Expert, et al. for advice from people who've been there, done it and got several tee-shirts! Who knows, you might be able to (say) complain to Trading Standards about their unethical behaviour and you might find someone with a large enough axe to grind to go after them on your behalf....
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@Nabsim - Geoff's got a good point, Neil, just depends on whether you can be bothered with the endless to-ing and fro-ing.

It's always a hassle dealing with stuff like this. I guess that's how they get away with it so often. Most folk just lose the will to live before they get to the end of the battle, or don't even know where to start, so they just give in and let it go ...😴🥴👎
 
I don't think that service area parking is anything to do with councils.
In general, you're best paying council-issued penalty charges, but not necessarily ones from private companies.
 
Nabsim said:
They said I had exhausted the appeal procedure and I paid the fine. We had a few emails back and forth and right from the start it looked unlikely I was going to get anywhere with them.
Of course I would have the option for court but if I lost that it would also have been doubled by then.
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I have one like that going but they will have to jail me fist at there expence.
 
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