Replacement leisure batteries

[trevskoda]

Only ever done it in an emergency and mine doesn’t have any of the new fangled dpf stuff on it. Going for a run doesn’t do a lot either in a lot of cases, I would need more than two hours driving every day to keep mine topped up lol

Not just the dpf, but they start to burn oil as the bore gets glassed, and oil never reaches temp to unfold the long chain polymers which when cooling roll up holding the carbon, water and acids, also then clogs up oilways over time.

 

[molly 2]

Inverters aren’t compulsory Baz lol

Bet you got one Neil

 

[merl]

I killed three brand new Varta battery’s in 12 months simply because I needed more power than they could give me, that was a total of 270ah, 135Ah useable, (on the rare occasion they would be 100% charged). Because I could get a good deal on Lifepo4 at the time I made the jump and haven’t regretted it once. I spend about 10 months of the year in my van normally and very rarely use campsites, almost always off grid but do have a genny I can use for extra charging at this time of year.

Regarding chargers, you should work on 10 x the amp output ideally then output when sizing for your battery’s (unless Lifepo4). So a 15A charger is good for a total of 150ah. Just check if you have a trickle charge or link back to starter battery though as you can overload charger by not taking into account the starter battery. This relates to the standard charger that came with motor homes, smart chargers can probably cope better but may not provide the power as quickly as you need.

You need to look at how quickly you can get the charge back into the battery bank of wanting to spend a lot of time off grid or you will be sat running your engine for hours on end as I see a lot doing.

A perfect example of how people add batteries to a solar setup in an attempt to increase the offgrid capacity but you just end up just getting a shorter battery life!
Nothing is simple

 

[wildebus]

I killed three brand new Varta battery’s in 12 months simply because I needed more power than they could give me, that was a total of 270ah, 135Ah useable, (on the rare occasion they would be 100% charged). Because I could get a good deal on Lifepo4 at the time I made the jump and haven’t regretted it once. I spend about 10 months of the year in my van normally and very rarely use campsites, almost always off grid but do have a genny I can use for extra charging at this time of year.

Regarding chargers, you should work on 10 x the amp output ideally then output when sizing for your battery’s (unless Lifepo4). So a 15A charger is good for a total of 150ah. Just check if you have a trickle charge or link back to starter battery though as you can overload charger by not taking into account the starter battery. This relates to the standard charger that came with motor homes, smart chargers can probably cope better but may not provide the power as quickly as you need.

You need to look at how quickly you can get the charge back into the battery bank of wanting to spend a lot of time off grid or you will be sat running your engine for hours on end as I see a lot doing.

When working out the charger size, it is also important to consider when you are charging as well. If you plug into EHU when you will likely also be using the van, the 12V power you are using needs to be provided from the charger. So if say you have that 15A charger, but you are drawing power for a fan on a heater, a TV, lights, etc, it is quite possible you could be pulling at least half that 15A the charger is providing, so the 15A charger is actually only putting in 7A into the batteries.
Something to consider when choosing the battery charger capacity (I would go for a charger maybe 20% of the battery bank capacity myself to give some leeway).

 

[wildebus]

Bet you got one Neil

nah, he doesn't have ONE

 

[slowgiles]

That charger is a little dated, but you could use it for Lithium ok. The only thing I would not be that keen on is it could be running on full-pelt for extended periods as it is quite small capacity. Fitting a replacement, more capable charger really is a very straightforward job. It is a DIY job for anyone who does any DIY at home, and if you had to employ someone to do it, it should not take them long at all (so lowish labour costs).
Other chargers that are involved maybe ... Solar? again, changing to an lithium-capable controller if need be is fairly easy and usully easier than swapping out the mains charger.
Split-Charge for charging when driving? This is where it can get more complex. This is where you want to speak to someone when they look at your van.
The other complication of Lithium apart from charging is knowing how well they are charged. Voltmeters and LED lights as used in most motorhomes and campers are of absolutely no use and you need either a smart battery, or an extra battery monitor.

End of the day, You will get a much more usuable setup with Lithium, but you will need to invest a fair bit more than just the price of the battery.

Thanks for all the advice. Checking through manuals, this becomes very expensive to change to lithium, as not only the charger needs changing, but also the solar panel control unit (clearly states not to be used with lithium) and most probably the solar panels themselves being swapped out for higher generating panels. So now getting close to £2k, just to lose 28kg of weight. With the age of the MH, it makes more sense to go to grade A batteries from the current grade C that are fitted.

Then, go on a diet

 

[wildebus]

Thanks for all the advice. Checking through manuals, this becomes very expensive to change to lithium, as not only the charger needs changing, but also the solar panel control unit (clearly states not to be used with lithium) and most probably the solar panels themselves being swapped out for higher generating panels. So now getting close to £2k, just to lose 28kg of weight. With the age of the MH, it makes more sense to go to grade A batteries from the current grade C that are fitted.

Then, go on a diet

Ok.... Changing to Lithiums ......

Cost of batteries - the clearest up-front cost you need to account for.
A way to monitor the battery state of charge (SOC) - this is something that many sellers don't tell you about but is essential as what is in your motorhome will not do this - This may be built into the batteries in some cases, or may have to buy a monitor. Costs are between £100-£200 depending on what monitor you get (but that £100-£200 will give you a top-class quality battery monitor)

Ways to charge: -
Mains Charger. Maybe £150 if you upgrade what you have? recommended but not essential.
Solar Charger. Between £60-£150 for a Lithium capable unit. We'll call that essential going by what you say
Charging while Driving. Let's assume you will need to fit a B2B, so call that essential. Say £200 for a 30A unit
Updating solar panels? nah, definately optional. If you have room for more and you want to be more off-grid, then yes, get more, but that would be true if you went for Lithium or stuck with Lead.
So maybe talking upto an extra £500 in parts on top of the battery price plus any install costs if not doing it yourself.

Given your existing setup and I would guess a bit of a desire to stick with what you know (nothing wrong with that), I think I would be looking at a nice pair of Lead Carbon Batteries. These are significantly superior to standard Lead Acid ones (with a superior price to match, but nowhere near Lithiums - I have 3 100Ah Lead Carbons and altogether they were still under the price of a single 100Ah Lithium), are much more suited to Wild Camping than basic Lead and you can take them down lower without problems. They will also work with your existing setup as well as your current batteries (actually better as more resistant to poor or part charging).
Check out this link for a good selection - https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/shop/?s=lead+carbon&post_type=product . But before you do, make a note of the HEIGHT in your battery box as well as the length and width. this is essential as many of the Lead Carbons are heigher than your typical Lead Acid batteries.

 

[Nabsim]

When working out the charger size, it is also important to consider when you are charging as well. If you plug into EHU when you will likely also be using the van, the 12V power you are using needs to be provided from the charger. So if say you have that 15A charger, but you are drawing power for a fan on a heater, a TV, lights, etc, it is quite possible you could be pulling at least half that 15A the charger is providing, so the 15A charger is actually only putting in 7A into the batteries.
Something to consider when choosing the battery charger capacity (I would go for a charger maybe 20% of the battery bank capacity myself to give some leeway).

The 10x figure I used is ideal minimum but I missed the minimum. Did quite well in that one overall though, it’s almost readable lol

 

[Nabsim]

A perfect example of how people add batteries to a solar setup in an attempt to increase the offgrid capacity but you just end up just getting a shorter battery life!
Nothing is simple

Not following you merl, I didn’t mention solar was trying to explain the mains charger side. I have 300W on the roof and a 100W suitcase panel

 

[merl]

Not following you merl, I didn’t mention solar was trying to explain the mains charger side. I have 300W on the roof and a 100W suitcase panel

Yeh, I was prattling slightly off topic I was just pointing out that often someone has a problem with inadequate solar recovery and considers going down the 'add another battery' route not grasping that it's twice as hard to keep 2 batteries topped up so the batteries often end up in a partially charged state for a lot of their lives and then die from sulphating.

 

[Aethelric]

It all depends on how much power you use, not the size of the battery.
My newish battery is 100Ah and if I was to run it down to 50% charge, that is 50Ah. For me that would take over a week, but for some it may be a couple of days or even 1 day.
I have a 5A charger. If hooked up, the charger runs all day so is capable of producing 120Ah in a day. It would replace the 50Ah in 10 hours running. Plenty leeway.

 

[slowgiles]

Ok.... Changing to Lithiums ......

Cost of batteries - the clearest up-front cost you need to account for.
A way to monitor the battery state of charge (SOC) - this is something that many sellers don't tell you about but is essential as what is in your motorhome will not do this - This may be built into the batteries in some cases, or may have to buy a monitor. Costs are between £100-£200 depending on what monitor you get (but that £100-£200 will give you a top-class quality battery monitor)

Ways to charge: -
Mains Charger. Maybe £150 if you upgrade what you have? recommended but not essential.
Solar Charger. Between £60-£150 for a Lithium capable unit. We'll call that essential going by what you say
Charging while Driving. Let's assume you will need to fit a B2B, so call that essential. Say £200 for a 30A unit
Updating solar panels? nah, definately optional. If you have room for more and you want to be more off-grid, then yes, get more, but that would be true if you went for Lithium or stuck with Lead.
So maybe talking upto an extra £500 in parts on top of the battery price plus any install costs if not doing it yourself.

Given your existing setup and I would guess a bit of a desire to stick with what you know (nothing wrong with that), I think I would be looking at a nice pair of Lead Carbon Batteries. These are significantly superior to standard Lead Acid ones (with a superior price to match, but nowhere near Lithiums - I have 3 100Ah Lead Carbons and altogether they were still under the price of a single 100Ah Lithium), are much more suited to Wild Camping than basic Lead and you can take them down lower without problems. They will also work with your existing setup as well as your current batteries (actually better as more resistant to poor or part charging).
Check out this link for a good selection - https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/shop/?s=lead+carbon&post_type=product . But before you do, make a note of the HEIGHT in your battery box as well as the length and width. this is essential as many of the Lead Carbons are heigher than your typical Lead Acid batteries.

Thank you for this great advice. Something I can follow with ease and understand the logic behind it. But, as always a couple of questions.

1. So if I don't go lithium route, the solar charger unit does not need replacing ?
2. The batteries do charge whilst driving, so I need to see what amp they are and upgrade to 30amp if need be?
3. I have 2 solar panels on the roof, both are about 1.2m long and 60cm wide. Not sure of thier rating, but as they have been up there some time, I guess not really powerful. I do have room to fit another one up there.
4. For clarification, your not suggesting I keep the originals as well as replacements? Weight would then be an issue.
5. Have measured both the main battery compartment and the additional battery compartment, so know I can fit 237h x 173w x 330l no problem.

I will be getting someone to do this work for me, but it's great getting experienced advice from you all, so I have a better understanding and don't get conned. I live in Dorset, but spend a fair bit of time in Norfolk, which is where I'm thinking of getting the work done.

Once again, thanks for everyone's input on this, I really do appreciate it.

 

[winks]

The two stand out points to my way of thinking are, if your solar controller is not already MPPT take the opportunity to change that and possibly have one which will also look after your starter battery. The solar panels are probably ok because they do not lose any significant output with age, especially if they are of the rigid construction variety. At that size I'd guess they'd be at least 100w each.

Looking like lead carbon to me.

Cheers

H

 

[merl]

Hi,
Agree with winks above, Lead carbon would need no modifications to your existing setup but check to see if your current solar controller is MPPT type as you'll get better solar charging.
I would add that you use the new batteries only.
People have already posted some rule of thumb guidance on mains charger size but ultimately what works for you will depend on how deep you discharge your batteries and how long you can plug into EHU.
Check your charger and see if it's the 10A or the 16A version. Assuming you've got 1 X 100AH battery, and charging overnight or when nothing else is using battery power, the 16A version would give a full charge (from flat) in around 7 hours or so. Twice as long for 2 batteries and proportionally longer for the 10A version.
Changing the charger isn't a huge job so I'm wondering if you could leave that for and see how you get on with what you've got esp if it's the 16A version?
Merl

 

[number14]

The OP says in his OP that he has 2x100Ah batteries so likely that he has the CB516 but, yes, do check.

I used to have a CB516 which only offers 'wet' and 'gel' charge profiles. If I have read this thread properly, the suggestion is that this charger will support lead carbon but, surely this will need to be lead carbon 'gel' rather than lead carbon 'agm'.

 

[wildebus]

Thank you for this great advice. Something I can follow with ease and understand the logic behind it. But, as always a couple of questions.

1. So if I don't go lithium route, the solar charger unit does not need replacing ?
2. The batteries do charge whilst driving, so I need to see what amp they are and upgrade to 30amp if need be?
3. I have 2 solar panels on the roof, both are about 1.2m long and 60cm wide. Not sure of thier rating, but as they have been up there some time, I guess not really powerful. I do have room to fit another one up there.

Things do get smaller over time, but not sure if there has been that much movement for solar panels. I would take a punt of those panels being 120W or 130W. A pair of those on the roof is not bad.

4. For clarification, your not suggesting I keep the originals as well as replacements? Weight would then be an issue.

No, Replacing

5. Have measured both the main battery compartment and the additional battery compartment, so know I can fit 237h x 173w x 330l no problem.

What you have there is a space for what is called a "Group 19" (or G19) Battery. A very common size, so lots of choice. The height is fairly good as well.
This would be a good fit - https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/1...ad-carbon-ultra-deep-cycle-battery-dc12-100c/ . This is in fact a Lead Carbon GEL battery (not AGM) and its charge voltage is nicely in the spec of the CBE Charger

I will be getting someone to do this work for me, but it's great getting experienced advice from you all, so I have a better understanding and don't get conned. I live in Dorset, but spend a fair bit of time in Norfolk, which is where I'm thinking of getting the work done.

Once again, thanks for everyone's input on this, I really do appreciate it.

 

[trevskoda]

Lead carbon batts and one of these will work and save to much farting about.

 

[merl]

The OP says in his OP that he has 2x100Ah batteries so likely that he has the CB516 but, yes, do check.

I used to have a CB516 which only offers 'wet' and 'gel' charge profiles. If I have read this thread properly, the suggestion is that this charger will support lead carbon but, surely this will need to be lead carbon 'gel' rather than lead carbon 'agm'.

Good spot . If those printed voltages are accurate too they are a little lower than typical and make matters worse, so I'd agree, Carbon Gel required. If the charger is retained.

 

[number14]

As I wrote in my earlier post, I swapped my cb516 for a cb516-3 which is a no hassle form, fit and function drop in replacement except it includes an agm charge profile. For me, the £120 or so (IIRC) was worth it for the wider choice of agm batteries.

Should say that my starter batt is also agm so solar and mains chargers are both setup on agm profile's to feed all 3 batteries.

 

[trevskoda]

As I wrote in my earlier post, I swapped my cb516 for a cb516-3 which is a no hassle form, fit and function drop in replacement except it includes an agm charge profile. For me, the £120 or so (IIRC) was worth it for the wider choice of agm batteries.

Should say that my starter batt is also agm so solar and mains chargers are both setup on agm profile's to feed all 3 batteries.

The AGM is realy only a lead battery with the acid in a gel form, better to move to the new carbon lead units