lobbying your own council

The point about funding can be considered a red-herring if you restrict the argument to what the French would call "Aires de stationment" with no facilities other than a place to park. The maintenance costs would be no more than for the existing car park (provided we all act responsibly and take our rubbish away with us). Maybe this is the way to force open the door and then ask for water/waste disposal points later, if at all (we have never been refused by garages when we ask to fill up with fresh water and empty the toilet cassette while filling up with diesel so you could theoretically go on forever with just a bit of tarmac to pull up on).
 
Firefox said:
Great idea. As I said in another thread on the lake district, councils don't really listen to outsiders. They are more concerned with winning votes from their own constituents. It doesn't matter if you tell another council how much business for local premises they are losing from motorhomers, it has to come from the horses mouth.

In some cases where they have had problems with travelers or lorry parking they are not going to be receptive however you phrase it. That's just a fact to face up to. But in a large number of cases it is something they will at least consider.

One of the best ways to get things done at local councils is not necessarily to approach the council direct but find a local councillor who will take up your case and maybe put a proposal forward. This way you have a point of contact, rather than just lobbying the council in general where things can just get passed from one person to another.
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I now agree wholeheartedly with this. My first approach to Copeland Council was to the tourist management staff. I did this because of a Countryfile television programme saying that Whitehaven was to spend millions on expanding tourism facilities and I thought suggestions and plans would be made by full time staff for submission to elected decision makers. It's possible that this is still the case and I simply approached the wrong people.

Initially the approach seemed to be successful; I was even to be invited to a discussion. However, when the tourist staff approached the car parking enforcement people everything came to a full stop.

I don't think we can expect staff to iniate changes. Mostly their jobs will be to enforce existing rules, to maintain the status quo; why would they want change? It's easy to have some contempt for them or to call them jobsworths but it's natural, isn't it, to try to avoid change.

I did think it extremely odd that I didn't get a response from the councillor in overall charge of tourism policy in Whitehaven especially after that Countryfile television programme but, once my aproach had been made to staff, then he may not have wanted to rock any boats with them. It might have seemed difficult to him to seem to overule them.

It's difficult but I now think the most effective initial approach will be to those who can make decisions.

I don't think we should be downhearted. I think this thread can become one of our most useful learning experiences.
 
Dear John,
You certainly trew a stick in the hen-house.:rolleyes::D
A few comments / suggestions/ remarks (quote in )
The French example is at sites generally but not exclusively on Peage which are private financed highways as Im sure you will be aware.
This is not true. There are only a dozen ‘aires’ on péages, but more than 2000 ! in cities, villages…. Most of them free, or at mimimmal cost (up to 5 €) on municipal parking lots or public terrain.
Whilst the sites can accommodate motorhomes they are locked after 7:00pm and on Sundays: this is to discourage anti -soccial behaviour or accommodation by gypsys and travellers at times when the sites are not manned. We have planning permission only to open the sites during restricted hours
Again have a look at France: in some areas they also have the nuissance of ‘gypsies’ (and I think more than in the UK) the simply solved this: or put a ‘max 48h’ or ‘reserved for (tourist) motorhomes only’ at the entrance
Unfortunately such facilities have been used at times by irresponsible persons and we have received complaints of unacceptable littering or them being used as toilet facilities which the Council then has to expend resource to address from ther public purse.
A motorhomer is selfsuporting: doesn’t need public loo’s, only a simple water tap, and conviennances for grey-water and black-water disposal are enough. A tap isn’t that costly !
A hint: most paying ‘aires’ charge 2€ for 120 l of water (coins, tokens, banccard). And a dust-bin could either be a problem
You have suggested there is an economic benefit to the County through such provision, but equally there is an economic cost that must be borne. Capital funding would need to be provided for construction of buildings and continued revenue funding would need to be provided for maintenance of such facilities. Such funding would not be unsubstantial and would be difficult to identify in the current climat e of public spending cuts.
No buildings needed, at the most a parking-meter, if there are WC's let them and provide a tap. In general no extra funds are needed to convert a (part of) a public parking into a MH-overnight.
German studies states that for every MH overnighting there is a revenue of at less 35 € for the local community (errands, petrol, pub, restaurant, musea….)
Moreover: the majority of the MH public are well done senior law-abiding citizens.(no hooligans, or boy-racers)
To broaden the local authorities horizons on the subject, have a look on varoius motorhome-sites on the continent: France, Germany, Italy ….
CAMPINGCAR-INFOS
Le aree di sosta camper, i camper service e i punti sosta per i turisti pleinair? Su Camperonline.it!
Wohnmobil-Portal MeinWomo Wohnmobilstellplatz Stellplätze Events POIS
 
QUOTE - Use of the County Council's other off street facilities and laybys is in some instances restricted particularily for overnight stops. Again this is to dissuade anti social behaviour. Unfortunately such facilities have been used at times by irresponsible persons and we have received complaints of unacceptable littering or them being used as toilet facilities which the Council then has to expend resource to address from ther public purse. QUOTE

John Thompson said:
Your comments and suggestions on how to reply further please. In all I find it a negative response.
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It must be a simple matter to find out from other local authorities who DO provide facilities for motorhomes what their experiences are of littering, etc before and after the facilities were provided. I do seem to remember some anecdotal evidence that antisocial behaviour is actually reduced when there is an overnight presence. We actually act as unpaid night watchmen.
 
I hate to put a downer on all this but as an ex-councillor I feel the need to point out the following:
1. If you contact a councillor he/she needs to be on the ruling group (the opposition are never given a look-in whoever they are).
2. Even councillors on the ruling group tend to view things by how many votes are at stake and the reality is that there are more voters who regard us as gypsy scum than support us (whatever the reality, it is impressions that win the day and few councillors will wish to rock the boat when there are far more vote-winning hooks to hang their hats on.
The best way to get things changed is NOT to approach a councillor but to find a sympathetic officer who can "tweak" the rules without the councillors realising what is happening. Not very democratic but realistic. The councillor who did not reply was almost certainly not worried about upsetting his officers but waiting in the wings to hang them out to dry if and when things went wrong. You may call me a cynic but I have been there and seen it.
 
The problem is, it will take a fair bit of rule "tweaking" to provide a service facility with hardstanding, water and disposal points.

Even when it comes to just allowing parking, many towns have "parking strategies". Where fifteen years ago there was nothing with many unmarked stretches of road and public place parking, now they are covered with lines and plates - residents parking, loading bays, no return within four hours, no lorries, single yellows and the dreaded doubles. Every square inch of the town is marked in some way. So the opportunity for tweaking is not what it was.

Agreed, a ruling party councillor is best, but there are many places with no overall control. I've found Lib Dems and Labour the most receptive councillors, especially Lib Dems, but find the right person and it will be a big help. There must be some councillors out there who own motorhomes!
 
You're a cynic.

But we're on the same side, yes?

Now you could be our secret weapon. You've been on the inside. How do we get what we want which is official council recognition? Well, you've told us. So, how can the rules be tweaked? It's the no sleeping overnight rule which must be ignored. Now which officials can arrange to have it ignored? Tourist officials? Parking enforcers? Once we know that, how can we identify the sympathetic ones? The ones who aren't afraid of their councillors hanging them out to dry when things go wrong. Why would any employee take that risk? Risking their jobs, risking their pensions? I think you have set us an impossible task.

I still think the probably successful route is through elected representatives. But if we have enough people trying then we will eventually find the most successful route, yes?

Let's all try. I'll try immediately by approaching a local councillor in person. I'll start tomorrow. Too late tonight Not a written application – in person. So far we have at least two approaches to officials and one to an elected representative. All three unsuccessful so far. I'll try in person.

Tomorrow.
 
Too right MaureenandTom, they are not going to put their jobs on the line. Any "tweaking" is going to be strictly off the record! If you want to sleep the odd night where it is officially prohibited, one is best doing that off the record on ones own accord, without getting anyone involved. The rules basically exist to prevent a group of 50 travellers staying there for 3 months and dumping a load of rubbish which is going to cost £1000's to clear up

I work in construction doing consultancy and design and I often speak to council officers with regard to approvals on various schemes. The rule is you have to stick to the rules, but the unwritten rule is if you do something sensible the officer won't see it.
 
I ought to add on a separate subject I have already approached my councils on the matter. And lorry parks exist in Hitchin and Stevenage which motorhomers are welcome to use. It's not exactly a room with a view, but it is somewhere to park up. North Herts is not quite the tourist capital of the UK so I wouldn't expect them to cater for hordes of overnighters ;) I'd also recommend a discreet corner of Tescos car park in Royston or Baldock
 
Firefox said:
Too right MaureenandTom, they are not going to put their jobs on the line. Any "tweaking" is going to be strictly off the record! If you want to sleep the odd night where it is officially prohibited, one is best doing that off the record on ones own accord, without getting anyone involved. The rules basically exist to prevent a group of 50 travellers staying there for 3 months and dumping a load of rubbish which is going to cost £1000's to clear up

I work in construction doing consultancy and design and I often speak to council officers with regard to approvals on various schemes. The rule is you have to stick to the rules, but the unwritten rule is if you do something sensible the officer won't see it.
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This is undoubtedly true, in my dealings with various council parking department officials, a few have said that the occasional motorhome staying for one night is not a problem and they turn a blind eye.

Where a blind eye is turned there is always just the possibility that officials might be persuaded to set up a temporary trial of official overnight parking.

It is certainly a good idea for local motorhome owners to lobby their council, this is what happened in Guisborough and I expect the person responsible would be happy to advise on the best approach and suggest counter arguments to the usual council objections. Unfortunately I don't have his details but I expect Graham at motorhomeparking.co.uk would be able to pass on enquiries.

AndyC
 
We seem to have got a good debate going here.

From time to time, all councils sit down and revise their parking regulations and it is at this stage that things can be subtly changed. For example, a good start would be to allow 24 hour parking on all council car parks with a nominal charge (or none) for overnight parking (no need to mention motorhomes at all). Such a proposal could be fed into the system without anybody realising the implications - IF you can find a sympathetic officer (one with a motorhome who works in the legal, highways or planning departments). If some councillors spot it and get nervous then you could feed in a 12 hour maximum stay or whatever.

I agree that this is only the start and it is a long way from providing water, waste disposal etc but those things do have financial implications which get in the way and we first need to demonstrate to the worried councillors that we can park up overnight, not cause a nuisance and leave no sign that we were there (just like the average car in the same parking spot). First we need to get the foot in the door and then we can argue from a position of strength.

Incidentally, I have been told that some supermarkets (Tescos?) are beginning to follow the French lead and allow motorhomes to stay overnight in some areas. I have no experience myself but does anyone know if its true? If so, this is a big step forward. Big oaks from little acorns grow.
 
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John H said:
Incidentally, I have been told that some supermarkets (Tescos?) are beginning to follow the French lead and allow motorhomes to stay overnight in some areas. I have no experience myself but does anyone know if its true? If so, this is a big step forward. Big oaks from little acorns grow.
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I think Tesco used to 'unofficially' allow the odd motorhome to stop overnight, now their car parks are mostly managed by outside contractors I believe this in no longer the case.

The problem with places like Tesco, and other non local authority car parks, is that planning permission and a site licence would be required, unless the parking place is granted an Exemption Certificate, this is what's happening with Practical Motorhome's Nightstop Scheme where Exemption Certificates are being granted by The Motorcaravanner's Club.

Land in the control of a local authority does not need planning or a site licence, all that would be required is an amendment to the local Off Street Parking Places Order.

AndyC
 
Nice to see this thread is gathering pace with new names getting involved.
It seems to me that we initially shouldn't mention facilities that require funding ie waste disposal, tap etc. All we need is a spot to park where we are not going to get moved on. The biggest portion of members have self contained facilities anyway so lack of these facilities for a single night or so shouldn't generally be an issue. Once we achieve permission to stop overnight at a particular location and the authority observes that we are not abusing this priviledge, we can push for better facities at a later date.
Have received my reply from Bury MBC.....doesn't say much other than my enquiry is being passed on to someone else....will give them a few days and give them a prod.
Keep badgering away and they at least know we are awake!
 
having just been motorhoming in the uk for 3 months ...first summer visit for 25 years ....I have to say that we didn't find great problems finding places to stop for a day or two ; I realise we are more experienced than most after over 40 countries , but although quite prepared to break silly regulations [ you can't sleep in this empty car park ] , we only had to do so on a couple of occasions
I admit that we have friends and family around the country giving us succour for about a third of the time , but that still leaves two months

but from what we observed , and heard , the uk continues to be a very reactionary country ; for that reason I have to fully agree with what appears to be the sentiments of the forum ie softly softly catches monkey !

starting out suggesting merely dedicated parking on a reasonable site would undoubtedly meet with less resistance , no capital expenditure involved , as long as

'no sleeping in vehicles ' wasn't specified ....I don't know of that being in planning regulations anyway

no excessive parking charge ..... we stopped somewhere where the parking charge was £2 all day , and £10 for the night ..will you believe we didn't stop the night ? one accepts that in big cities charges will be pro rata

as someone else suggested , once the principle is established of motorhomes parking the next step would be easier

disposing of grey water is no problem , the street drains go into the sewerage system and you are only depositing the same as any house anyway , and superloo's are wonderful [ for those of you who haven't emptied their loo in one , beneath the toilet seat at floor level there is a slot just the right size for the outlet , take a water container to wash out ; if you spill a little in the process , no problem , when you leave the whole placed is washed out into the sewer ]

water ? not too big a problem ....we had people who not only freely gave us some water when asked but moved vehicles so we could get closer to the tap

so until better comes along , we could manage ; well , couldn't we ?
 
lebesset said:
disposing of grey water is no problem , the street drains go into the sewerage system and you are only depositing the same as any house anyway
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Can't really let this go. I asked Thames Water about this a few years ago, they told me that, in most cases, roadside drains do not empty into the foul sewer. They are designed to cope with rainwater, and water authorities, whose responsibility they are, can prosecute anyone found emptying anything else into them.

AndyC
 
Firefox said:
Great idea. As I said in another thread on the lake district, councils don't really listen to outsiders. They are more concerned with winning votes from their own constituents. It doesn't matter if you tell another council how much business for local premises they are losing from motorhomers, it has to come from the horses mouth.

In some cases where they have had problems with travelers or lorry parking they are not going to be receptive however you phrase it. That's just a fact to face up to. But in a large number of cases it is something they will at least consider.

One of the best ways to get things done at local councils is not necessarily to approach the council direct but find a local councillor who will take up your case and maybe put a proposal forward. This way you have a point of contact, rather than just lobbying the council in general where things can just get passed from one person to another.
Click to expand...


Well said, I agree.
 
AndyC said:
Can't really let this go. I asked Thames Water about this a few years ago, they told me that, in most cases, roadside drains do not empty into the foul sewer. They are designed to cope with rainwater, and water authorities, whose responsibility they are, can prosecute anyone found emptying anything else into them.

AndyC
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Will confirm this, house grates usually empty into the foul sewer. But road drains usually drain into the local rivers
 
urbtaf said:
Will confirm this, house grates usually empty into the foul sewer. But road drains usually drain into the local rivers
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It depends on the location. In London, the systems are combined in most cases, so it's the same pipes and doesn't matter what goes where.

Road gullies usually go to either soakaways or the main storm drainage. House gullies go into the foul system if it is a back inlet gully next to a wall that the kitchen sink also drains into, but if it is a gulley in a driveway for example it will likely go into the storm system.

You need to avoid emptying your grey water tank into storm drainage. This can end up contaminating rivers.
 
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