Llandullas Fine's Issued

[maureenandtom]

Over the past four years there have been nine complaints about parking at Llanddulas Beach Car Park. There were none prior to July 2016 and I don't know if this was when the signs were erected. That seems significant – no complaints until the signs went up so the council had not had any complaints and were lying about the reasons for erecting them. Then, it seems likely, we ignored the signs and residents became upset – not that we were there – but because we were ignoring signs. Two complaints were complaints about our presence but also about the signs – 19 Mar 17 and 9 Oct 17. So … really only seven complaints about us (maybe) but see below. Some of the complaints may hae been from the same person. It is possible only three or four residents complained about us. Quite correctly, the names of the complainants, except for Cllr Eeles, were redacted so I'm not sure about that. In any case there can have been no more than six residents complaining about us, that is, 6 from residents, 3 from Cllr Eeles..

With some level of fairness – three of the complaints came from Councillor Keith Eeles and it is possible that he is the ward councillor and has, maybe, received more that were otherwise unrecorded. Or that he has had few complaints but feels he has to uphold the rules.

Only three complaints were about our activities (emptying loos - two of these from Cllr Eelse) – the others about our presence and, it seems likely, there were no complaints whatever until the signs were erected.

I think that's important. No restrictive signs and no complaints. The complaints are not that we are there but that we are seen to be ignoring the signs. That seems to me to be a reasonable assumption.

One of the complainants, usefully, took pictures to illustrate his complaint and attached them to his complaint; I've been given two of them.

 

[maureenandtom]

My van is plated at 3700 kgs (Private Heavy Goods) but my mass in running order (unladen weight?) is 2915 kgs. For purposes such as this is my van then classed as Light Goods?

For the purposes of the Order ... and if you have some sort of documentary evidence, V5 perhaps, of the 2915 kg figure then I think yoiu could claim, on appeal, that you are a Motor Car using the definition in the order and in the Act. I think you could make a very useful appeal, if you had reason, to the traffic commissioner. I've always been confused by this weight business - but that's what I think.

 

[Channa]

29/08/2016 38 vans and one caravan averaging and assuming one night spent each equates to 13 a night close to 3 times the limit allowed by a CL Site no wonder Wildcamping is berated, And hand on heart shite on the rocks for the tide to wash abuse of the toilet block it is little wonder the locals are aggrieved. This doesn't excuse poor signage and misconstrued legislation re the original post...But it doesn't strike me as a good advert for the pastime ..One complaint is one complaint too many ...

Channa

 

[maureenandtom]

29/08/2016 38 vans and one caravan averaging and assuming one night spent each equates to 13 a night close to 3 times the limit allowed by a CL Site no wonder Wildcamping is berated, And hand on heart shite on the rocks for the tide to wash abuse of the toilet block it is little wonder the locals are aggrieved. This doesn't excuse poor signage and misconstrued legislation re the original post...But it doesn't strike me as a good advert for the pastime ..One complaint is one complaint too many ...

Channa

Both those loo disposal complaints came from a councillor. About the numbers I can't disagree but ... few of the locals are aggrieved enough to make a complaint - only two quoted a number and three complained regardless of the number and only one quoted a number from the councillor. And no one complained before mid-2016. If we were somehow to get the council to permit overnight parking at that car park would the numbers still be unacceptable? They're acceptable enough elsewhere.

I think this shows the usual pattern and is very similar to, last year, Wyre Council and Fleetwood car parks. Wyre eventually permitted, as a one year experiment, overnight parking.

 

[Channa]

Both those loo disposal complaints came from a councillor. About the numbers I can't disagree but ... few of the locals are aggrieved enough to make a complaint - only two quoted a number and three complained regardless of the number and only one quoted a number from the councillor. And no one complained before mid-2016. If we were somehow to get the council to permit overnight parking at that car park would the numbers still be unacceptable? They're acceptable enough elsewhere.

I think this shows the usual pattern and is very similar to, last year, Wyre Council and Fleetwood car parks. Wyre eventually permitted, as a one year experiment, overnight parking.

I know this spot very well Tom it has to be one of the best spots in the UK re its demise I offer another theory, I lived not far away in Towyn and on the front at Colwyn was a "fragile" chap in a camper fulltime harmless enough but I know for a fact putting gill nets in the sea and seen as an irritant by the council ..that is not supposition I spoke with him and had a coffee etc ...He occasionally parked up at LLandullas another van there seemed a regular too ,,I wonder if the rules introduced because the council wanted rid. The bloke was harmless enough but had MHI issues for sure he had a Renault camper , in fact someone here took a photo and made a piss take post oblivious to the fact the bloke had issues
I recall venting my frustration at the post.

However you disseminate the figures 13 a night is not acceptable we can hide behind no previous complaints etc but I think we need to be realistic there has been complaints ..It is far from an ideal situation and It is little wonder big brother is showing an interest


Channa.

 

[Channa]

Another consideration Tom as you suggest Councillor Eels may well be acting on informal complaints.

To add weight to that and who knows the local MP at the time not sure about present was Daren Millar whose office on the High Street two miles away in Abergele. What we do know about Mr Millar is he instigated the reform in Wales shaking up the static caravan sites who were allowing people to live in holiday homes on sites where the sites were allowing residential stays instead of strictly abiding to the Holiday let rules ,He offered weak argument that it put pressure on councils re refuse collection , Local doctors etc and no revenue .i.e council tax...I don't think it unreasonable to suggest this man is well aware of camping activity in Llandullas and Colwyn and would have no hesitation in leaning on the right people to discourage. The fellow I mentioned last post I know for a fact was on the council radar but not in the figures ,,,This may help the OP in the sense legislation passed at some point as we know without due diligence to the law.

North Wales nowadays should advertise for TPO's tourist prevention officers they might as well make it official , as things stand still wilding spots are available but those in authority see no other solution other than you should be using a site. Ty Mawr frankly is like a community service order one of Shark resorts sites but that is where they want us..A shame I can see North Wales losing a lot of much needed custom

Channa

 

[maureenandtom]

I think you're very probably right about that. Those pictures above were in support of a complaint about numbers. Five -.Hardly a problem bt that guy saw reason to complain and give a picture.

It's my opinion – for whatever reason the council want us out of there, it's not because of the weight of complaints from the public or of our overuse.

Thing is – this is another overnighting spot lost. As motorhomers do we accept it or do we approach the council with a solution?

This parking spot seems ideal for a permitted night-stop. One of the complaints was that we use a nearby toilet block to obtain water (24 Sep 17 in the table above; that complaint alone makes me wonder about the truth of the three (or two?) complaints about dumping loo contents on the beach- wouldn't anybody with any sense just use the public toilets? Experience shows that such complaints never hold up. Look at Cllr Parkin's claim that 90% or motorhomers dump waste on the street. Anger over motor home owners who dump their 'effluence' on the Burnham Explanade | This is The West Country Should we just give up? We can give up on them all and before long there is nowhere.

There have been places (Wyre was the latest) where a response to a defective order and council lies about complaints led to an order being amended and parking spots being approved.

Just yesterday Helmsley Motorhome Parking Consultation
we were asked to comment about an approved parking place in North Yorks. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the approved parking place there came about because of our response elsewhere in North Yorks.

I think we have good reason to approach Conwy Council.

Anybody?

 

[brotherjoe]

29/08/2016 38 vans and one caravan averaging and assuming one night spent each equates to 13 a night close to 3 times the limit allowed by a CL Site no wonder Wildcamping is berated, And hand on heart shite on the rocks for the tide to wash abuse of the toilet block it is little wonder the locals are aggrieved. This doesn't excuse poor signage and misconstrued legislation re the original post...But it doesn't strike me as a good advert for the pastime ..One complaint is one complaint too many ...

Channa

I completely agree. Sadly a minority spoil things for the minority no matter what the pastime or freedom is that we enjoy.
The growth of wild camping will also be the reason for its demise, certainly from the coastal areas anyway because instances like that above will result in the parking spots shut down for everyone.

I could make an argument to say the Councillor has no proof and is simply saying the worst things he can to force the council into action. However we all know that a few do this type of anti social practice so he may well be right.

Either way I accept the council had to act, but once again I don't understand why they have erected such small hard to see signs if they wish to stop motorhomes etc from parking there.
Backing that point up I see that 3 of the complaints also raised the issue of no sign visible, sign poorly placed and requests for more signage in a different area which will add further weight to my argument of poor and inadequate signage.


On my V5 I don't see any vehicle classification listed.
D.3 is blank
D.5 motor caravan
Y. Revenue weight 3850 gross

 

[Deleted member 5816]

Quote by Maureenandtom
Just yesterday Helmsley Motorhome Parking Consultation
we were asked to comment about an approved parking place in North Yorks. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the approved parking place there came about because of our response elsewhere in North Yorkshire

The more than fill in this online questionnaire the more likely the parking spaces will be made permanent only half a dozen or so seem to have filled it in. The more councils that do this then more councils are likely to follow.

Alf

 

[brotherjoe]

Quote by Maureenandtom
Just yesterday Helmsley Motorhome Parking Consultation
we were asked to comment about an approved parking place in North Yorks. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the approved parking place there came about because of our response elsewhere in North Yorkshire

The more than fill in this online questionnaire the more likely the parking spaces will be made permanent only half a dozen or so seem to have filled it in. The more councils that do this then more councils are likely to follow.

Alf

Do you have a link to the online questionnaire?
Is it worth starting a thread about it specifically on here to raise awareness and number of replies?

 

[alcam]

Quote by Maureenandtom
Just yesterday Helmsley Motorhome Parking Consultation
we were asked to comment about an approved parking place in North Yorks. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the approved parking place there came about because of our response elsewhere in North Yorkshire

The more than fill in this online questionnaire the more likely the parking spaces will be made permanent only half a dozen or so seem to have filled it in. The more councils that do this then more councils are likely to follow.

Alf

I've filled in questionnaire . Unlike online petitions , which I have little faith in , filling this in may well have a direct benefit .
Going back to the post about people dumping their sh*t on the beach . I must admit I find this hard to believe .
I can see some diddies stopping at a lay by and dumping it over the hedge but on the beach where they are staying , kids paddling etc ?

 

[antiquesam]

I've filled in questionnaire . Unlike online petitions , which I have little faith in , filling this in may well have a direct benefit .
Going back to the post about people dumping their sh*t on the beach . I must admit I find this hard to believe .
I can see some diddies stopping at a lay by and dumping it over the hedge but on the beach where they are staying , kids paddling etc ?

I think you have more faith in the good practices of motorhomers than I have. I've seen what they have left behind and they don't look like travellers to me.

 

[Channa]

I've filled in questionnaire . Unlike online petitions , which I have little faith in , filling this in may well have a direct benefit .
Going back to the post about people dumping their sh*t on the beach . I must admit I find this hard to believe .
I can see some diddies stopping at a lay by and dumping it over the hedge but on the beach where they are staying , kids paddling etc ?

At Llandullas Alcam the sea comes in at the carpark to a 3 ft wall or so the other side rocks so feasible that people think it will wash away with the tide which it possibly does, tide flow there is very quick. There is a toilet block set back from the car park a lot of people I suspect wary of visiting strange men frequent the establishment.

Channa

 

[Deleted member 5816]

If you look got them there are two threads running already
But here you go
Helmsley Motorhome Parking


Alf
PS >
Phil could this Helmsley thread be made a sticker for a month

Do you have a link to the online questionnaire?
Is it worth starting a thread about it specifically on here to raise awareness and number of replies?

 

[alcam]

At Llandullas Alcam the sea comes in at the carpark to a 3 ft wall or so the other side rocks so feasible that people think it will wash away with the tide which it possibly does, tide flow there is very quick. There is a toilet block set back from the car park a lot of people I suspect wary of visiting strange men frequent the establishment.

Channa

Don't remember meeting you there ?

 

[brotherjoe]

Disaster strikes.

My formal appeal was about 2/3's complete.
Notes on the remainder 1/3, ready.
Comparison car park photos, ready.
My Llanddulas photos, ready.
Details of their TRO's to hand.
Copies of LLanddulas youtube videos, ready.
Car park websites and law, ready.
Copy and pasted wordpad text from your kind posts within this thread, ready.

and then 2 days ago sods law, my laptop hard drive went pop and I've lost the lot., even lost my original appeal letters.

So 7 days till my deadline and I'm starting from scratch.
Thank god for this thread, at least I have some good background to begin with.

 

[mistericeman]

Hope it all goes well ...it'd be a great shame to lose such a loverly spot


Concerns Llanddulas beach car park is becoming a 'sex hot spot' - Photo 1 of 1 - LeaderLive

(And yes I know the spot as family had a holiday let up the road and used to walk the dogs on the beach there ...it sounds like it's calmed down a bit lol )

 

[colinm]

Disaster strikes.


and then 2 days ago sods law, my laptop hard drive went pop and I've lost the lot., even lost my original appeal letters.

That's a lesson anyone working in IT learns, always keep a backup, nowadays most of my documents are backed up to cloud, those that aren't and all my photo's are stored on usb pens.

 

[brotherjoe]

That's a lesson anyone working in IT learns, always keep a backup, nowadays most of my documents are backed up to cloud, those that aren't and all my photo's are stored on usb pens.

Ha yes I've learned that lesson in the past to.
As it was I had some issues with it earlier in the week and did take the opportunity to back up photos and family history folders to an external drive, but for some reason I forgot to include the car park folder.

Sods law, but that's life. Thankfully reading this thread again has allowed me to copy and paste many of the things I had included so that will at least save me some time and I've been able to copy the photos I posted at the time so now have them again to.

Off to copy some other Conwy car park signs next for comparison and to highlight the unusual and non standard signs used at Llanddulas.

 

[Channa]

Crikey, you have my sympathy I know from personal experience the amount of time that is invested researching and researching the research when doing anything legal ,,,hope its not too painful , and I wish you a good result no question about your effort invested.

good luck

Channa