Lithium/lead acid Hybrid battery Setup

[wildebus]

There are some decent places for electrical installation but they seem to prefer Victron kit, (unless they only show pics of that) and are a bit pricey. You could always hit up Bruce Lauderdale and see if he will do it, I know he does electrics for people but don’t know if you can get him direct or through someone else

The reason you always tend to see Victron kit is not only is it regarded as the 'gold standard', but the installer knows if there are issues, the equipment is covered by a 5 year warranty which is actually usuable, so it makes their lives easier in that respect.
It is no different really to a garage insisting on fitting say an OEM timing belt kit rather than a 'eBay special'. Less likely to have problems and if there are, the installer doesn't end up taking all the pain.

 

[Nabsim]

I wouldn’t put Victron in gold standard class, if you look at expensive kit like big yachts they would struggle to get through the door but I know what you mean. Most people in vehicles wouldn’t want to pay the cost of the gold class kit plus, it isn’t needed to be that good.

While I have some Victron kit I don’t share everyone’s view on it, for me I would go for a manufacturer who makes kit specifically for vehicles like Votronic. I bought some of my Victron kit as it was cheaper than buying the Votronic kit I wanted and didn’t have the spare cash at the time. The shunt I bought because at that time Votronic didn’t do Bluetooth or shunts.

I think the popularity of Victron is down to YouTube influencers, I see vans now where they have spent between five and ten grand on electrics and they aren’t even full timers. Just so they can have their coffee machine and air fryer. (Yes I also have those but not spent anything like that).

Good job we don’t all like/want the same though or prices would be through the roof lol

 

[barryd]

Here's a thought. If Sargent make all this kit for Swift vans and others. Why are they not putting upgrade kits out there for lithium/solar etc?

I haven't contacted Sargent yet but I think I might just to see what they say.

I'll be guided on here though as I was last time. Victron kit seems to be the favoured option.

 

[merl]

I wouldn’t put Victron in gold standard class, if you look at expensive kit like big yachts they would struggle to get through the door but I know what you mean. Most people in vehicles wouldn’t want to pay the cost of the gold class kit plus, it isn’t needed to be that good.

While I have some Victron kit I don’t share everyone’s view on it, for me I would go for a manufacturer who makes kit specifically for vehicles like Votronic. I bought some of my Victron kit as it was cheaper than buying the Votronic kit I wanted and didn’t have the spare cash at the time. The shunt I bought because at that time Votronic didn’t do Bluetooth or shunts.

I think the popularity of Victron is down to YouTube influencers, I see vans now where they have spent between five and ten grand on electrics and they aren’t even full timers. Just so they can have their coffee machine and air fryer. (Yes I also have those but not spent anything like that).

Good job we don’t all like/want the same though or prices would be through the roof lol

There's such a lot of angles to approach this subject that I don't think there's a consensus of what's 'correct' '
Some go for the simple, some like their bells, whistles and apps.
Some absolutely need the guarantee of a big brand like Victron where as others are fine going for the lesser names like Renogy and reaping the savings to be had.
I've personally not got a single Victron item in my van and go for budget/ mid price options but I have the advantage of being able to fix stuff if it breaks down. So far the only thing that's been an issue is the Nordelletronica mains charger which is classed as either premium or rubbish depending on who you ask! (the fact that it's broken down twice means I'd say the latter) But all the other stuff has/is fine including a really cheap but excellent MPPT solar controller that I've had now in 3 separate vans.
I see Kev (Pudsey Bear) has started a separate thread around this subject, currently it's concerned with just recommended installers but will obviously morph into the typical "I've got X, Y and Z with others replying that they used A, B and C and why X,Y and Z is no good, leaving the non technical completely confused and inevitably paying for Victron because they feel safe.
As David has already pointed out, IF I earned my income from it I'd be steering away from the cheaper brands and towards the likes of Victron because of their guarantee policy.
As always, horses for courses.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

There's such a lot of angles to approach this subject that I don't think there's a consensus of what's 'correct' '
Some go for the simple, some like their bells, whistles and apps.
Some absolutely need the guarantee of a big brand like Victron where as others are fine going for the lesser names like Renogy and reaping the savings to be had.
I've personally not got a single Victron item in my van and go for budget/ mid price options but I have the advantage of being able to fix stuff if it breaks down. So far the only thing that's been an issue is the Nordelletronica mains charger which is classed as either premium or rubbish depending on who you ask! (the fact that it's broken down twice means I'd say the latter) But all the other stuff has/is fine including a really cheap but excellent MPPT solar controller that I've had now in 3 separate vans.
I see Kev (Pudsey Bear) has started a separate thread around this subject, currently it's concerned with just recommended installers but will obviously morph into the typical "I've got X, Y and Z with others replying that they used A, B and C and why X,Y and Z is no good, leaving the non technical completely confused and inevitably paying for Victron because they feel safe.
As David has already pointed out, IF I earned my income from it I'd be steering away from the cheaper brands and towards the likes of Victron because of their guarantee policy.
As always, horses for courses.

Nordelletronica are Italian I think, and they are not noted for their electrickery stuff or instruments in general.

 

[merl]

Nordelletronica are Italian I think, and they are not noted for their electrickery stuff or instruments in general.

The stuff's not cheap though Kev! To be fair the circuitry and build is fantastic, it's downfall is it's size, it's just to small and compact and things get hot. The output circuit uses the PCB tracks and a fuse holder/ wires that aren't up to the job and they produce even more heat. I changed the wiring, fuse holder and added a fan which comes on with a thermal switch at 45 Deg. It's fine now and I've actually been able to tweak the output current from 19A to 25A. The newer units now come with a fan as standard.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

My vans controller is a Nordelletronica fortunately you can get them on ebay but after 5 of them I have given up on it, several problems, changing the time is impossible so I ignore it I even rang them and they talked me through it and they kept replacing them til I got fed up, controlling the lights is crazy, you press it and it does different stuff each time so it's pot luck which ones come on and I had to take the lamps out of the bathroom and we just have a LED button light in there as the controller would turn them on but they wouldn't go off again.

PURE SHOITE.

 

[wildebus]

Nordelletronica are Italian I think, and they are not noted for their electrickery stuff or instruments in general.

You'd be surprised. Italian companies are big into motorhome type kit. Got Nordelettronica and CBE (now both owned by Al-Ko in Germany). Also Fiamma who do make some electrical stuff. I prefer CBE over Nord' though.

But overall I stick with Victron, especially as the prices have come down, as reliability and availability are much more predicatable.
I was looking for a Camper PDU setup recently and the CBE one would have done the job quite nicely but availability was dubious and I didn't want to buy something, find there was a problem and wait months for a replacement item.
So confusingly enough I actually bought a Sargent Unit despite having a Lithium Battery - but as described before, I am not using the charging aspect at all, but the 240V AC and 12V DC distribution, tank level info and control panel.

 

[merl]

My vans controller is a Nordelletronica fortunately you can get them on ebay but after 5 of them I have given up on it, several problems, changing the time is impossible so I ignore it I even rang them and they talked me through it and they kept replacing them til I got fed up, controlling the lights is crazy, you press it and it does different stuff each time so it's pot luck which ones come on and I had to take the lamps out of the bathroom and we just have a LED button light in there as the controller would turn them on but they wouldn't go off again.

PURE SHOITE.

Wow! 5! I must have a goodun cos I'm still on No1, I'll let you know when I sell the van Kev

 

[wildebus]

Here's a thought. If Sargent make all this kit for Swift vans and others. Why are they not putting upgrade kits out there for lithium/solar etc?

I haven't contacted Sargent yet but I think I might just to see what they say.

I'll be guided on here though as I was last time. Victron kit seems to be the favoured option.

There MUST be a reason for it, but no one (companies I mean) in UK or Europe have come out with a product that you can have a single control panel for all the functions of a motorhome. I really dislike the mismatching control panels you see in Motorhomes for the diffrent usage. If someone brought out a true single panel to bring them together it would be a winner.
Swift on their latest models have got much more integration though and you can control the lights, heating and fridge from the one panel - and I think there is an App that connects as well.
If Victron brought out a 12V PDU (power distribution unit) "fusebox" that integrated to their Venus OS system (so connects to a Cerbo GX for example) so you can monitor the system and control the lights and stuff from one place, I think that would be a really popular product. I find it hard to believe they haven't and think there must be a reason why (they must have thought about it surely?)
the really expensive US RVs have these kind of integrated systems and they are very nice indeed - but those systems can cost on their own what lots of people spend on their entire Motorhome!

As far as the specific question "Why are they not putting upgrade kits out there for lithium/solar etc?" here is an example of one of those kits, but I don't know how retro-fit they can be going back for older vans. I bet your van is way too old! (and my own van is way older than yours!)

 

[barryd]

There MUST be a reason for it, but no one (companies I mean) in UK or Europe have come out with a product that you can have a single control panel for all the functions of a motorhome. I really dislike the mismatching control panels you see in Motorhomes for the diffrent usage. If someone brought out a true single panel to bring them together it would be a winner.
Swift on their latest models have got much more integration though and you can control the lights, heating and fridge from the one panel - and I think there is an App that connects as well.
If Victron brought out a 12V PDU (power distribution unit) "fusebox" that integrated to their Venus OS system (so connects to a Cerbo GX for example) so you can monitor the system and control the lights and stuff from one place, I think that would be a really popular product. I find it hard to believe they haven't and think there must be a reason why (they must have thought about it surely?)
the really expensive US RVs have these kind of integrated systems and they are very nice indeed - but those systems can cost on their own what lots of people spend on their entire Motorhome!

As far as the specific question "Why are they not putting upgrade kits out there for lithium/solar etc?" here is an example of one of those kits, but I don't know how retro-fit they can be going back for older vans. I bet your van is way too old! (and my own van is way older than yours!)

Thanks. I'll have a watch of that later although it may not be completely relevant to my 2015 van. I appreciate its going to have to be a carefully thought out fit to make it work with what we currently have of that era and of course tailored to our specific needs, I just need to get my head around it all.

 

[barryd]

Today as it's a dull day and chucking it down the swift control panel is showing the leisure battery as a bit low. Still in the green though but as it's only a guide somewhere between 12-12.5 volts. So I switched to the cab battery which is showing fully charged just for 20 minutes to quick charge my phone and take a shower as an experiment. I then switched back. Half an hour later on the solar controller the cab battery is showing full and it's up on the swift control panel also. As the solar clearly charges both is there any reason for not doing this from time to time? Should be sunny tomorrow anyway.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

An AA battery will do the same if you rest it, but it's an illusion, something to do with electrickery.

A clever person will be along soon to explain it more better.

 

[wildebus]

Today as it's a dull day and chucking it down the swift control panel is showing the leisure battery as a bit low. Still in the green though but as it's only a guide somewhere between 12-12.5 volts. So I switched to the cab battery which is showing fully charged just for 20 minutes to quick charge my phone and take a shower as an experiment. I then switched back. Half an hour later on the solar controller the cab battery is showing full and it's up on the swift control panel also.

As the solar clearly charges both is there any reason for not doing this from time to time? Should be sunny tomorrow anyway.

how do you know it "clearly charges both"? are you basing this purely on the fact there is a pair of wires in Battery 1 and a pair in Battery 2? or have you seen it charge both?

(who knows what is really on the other ends and if they are connected all the way through still?)

 

[barryd]

how do you know it "clearly charges both"? are you basing this purely on the fact there is a pair of wires in Battery 1 and a pair in Battery 2? or have you seen it charge both?

(who knows what is really on the other ends and if they are connected all the way through still?)

I've seen the engine battery go down a bit and after a sunny day it's back to full. In fact when the sun is blaring both the cab and engine batteries show over 13v on the control panel above the door. Also when I switched to engine battery earlier, charged my phone and had a shower it went to a static green light which means normal and later it was flashing which means full.

I'll start a new thread with pics tomorrow.

 

[merl]

I've seen the engine battery go down a bit and after a sunny day it's back to full. In fact when the sun is blaring both the cab and engine batteries show over 13v on the control panel above the door. Also when I switched to engine battery earlier, charged my phone and had a shower it went to a static green light which means normal and later it was flashing which means full.

I'll start a new thread with pics tomorrow.

Yeh, that's the solar charging both batteries

 

[barryd]

Yeh, that's the solar charging both batteries

Yep pretty sure it is.

 

[The Raptor]

You'd be surprised. Italian companies are big into motorhome type kit. Got Nordelettronica and CBE (now both owned by Al-Ko in Germany). Also Fiamma who do make some electrical stuff. I prefer CBE over Nord' though.

But overall I stick with Victron, especially as the prices have come down, as reliability and availability are much more predicatable.
I was looking for a Camper PDU setup recently and the CBE one would have done the job quite nicely but availability was dubious and I didn't want to buy something, find there was a problem and wait months for a replacement item.
So confusingly enough I actually bought a Sargent Unit despite having a Lithium Battery - but as described before, I am not using the charging aspect at all, but the 240V AC and 12V DC distribution, tank level info and control panel.

Actually my Sargent unit (EC225) charger packed up a few years ago so I disabled the charger and now use the red switch to power up a 240v to variable DC output unit. The voltage output is matched to the output of the solar panels and feeds directly into the MPPT solar controller and this then charges the battery bank. So in other words the controller thinks it is sunny but in fact it’s being fed by DC voltage from the transformer. This has worked now for over 5 years. I do have a diode on the DC +ve of the transformer to prevent feedback from the solar +ve.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I think Listerdiesel (Peter RIP) had a similar unit in his self build trailers and the Merc, dunno if that ever got finished.

 

[merl]

Actually my Sargent unit (EC225) charger packed up a few years ago so I disabled the charger and now use the red switch to power up a 240v to variable DC output unit. The voltage output is matched to the output of the solar panels and feeds directly into the MPPT solar controller and this then charges the battery bank. So in other words the controller thinks it is sunny but in fact it’s being fed by DC voltage from the transformer. This has worked now for over 5 years. I do have a diode on the DC +ve of the transformer to prevent feedback from the solar +ve.
View attachment 133379

. Nice idea and one that's not used often enough IMHO. I don't think you actually need that diode either!