layby fee dodgers

[jamesmarshall]

Sorry, but under regulations which came into force on 1st January 2003 (subsequent to the Electricity Act of 1989) it was forbidden to any longer make an "availability charge". From that date onward it has been illegal to charge more than the electricity cost the site owner. This means that they can only legally charge a blanket cost for the pitch (so that the electricity cost is not stated) or to meter the electricity and charge accordingly. Interesting, isn't it, that so many campsite owners are being allowed to walk all over the law without a single prosecution that I am aware of?

Then wouldn't this create an anomaly for the site owner? in that he/she would have to charge the same for pitches regardless of hook up or not. In effect the campers not using electricity would be subsidising those who do. if you turn the whole thing around it could be argued perhaps, that at present those not using electricity are receiving a discount. When you consider the outlay for the hook up system and the continuing maintenance and inspection costs as well as depreciation of the system, surely there needs to be an additional charge simply to recoup outlay.

 

[Deleted member 2636]

This is also rumbling on UK Campsites LINKY

 

[John H]

Then wouldn't this create an anomaly for the site owner? in that he/she would have to charge the same for pitches regardless of hook up or not. In effect the campers not using electricity would be subsidising those who do. if you turn the whole thing around it could be argued perhaps, that at present those not using electricity are receiving a discount. When you consider the outlay for the hook up system and the continuing maintenance and inspection costs as well as depreciation of the system, surely there needs to be an additional charge simply to recoup outlay.

As I said, the law isn't necessary logical - and perhaps that is why a blind eye is turned to all those campsites which do not comply with this particular law. It was originally designed to prevent landlords overcharging tenants and so will not necessarily fit campsites.

 

[Bushtrekker]

I have to agree about the fifty campers comment.

When we were there we never saw more than four or five, but the rest of the area was taken up by cars, which is fair enough. You couldn't physically fit fifty vans along there without using trolley jacks and evicting the cars first. Assuming I can sort out my driving problems by then, we may be back that way in September, so I'll post what I see.

 

[John H]

I have noticed there have been more and more locals sleeping there in cars and unconverted vans too as I do not think those with money have a clue that there really are people these days on low wages especially in places like Cornwall who unless they give up their job and claim benifits could not pay a rent on a house even if they wanted too .

Last autumn we spent a couple of months in Cornwall, taking advantage of off-season deals that meant we were paying about £7 per night, including hook-up, showers etc. I was amazed that on every site we visited a large percentage of our neighbours were people who were on low wages, who couldn't afford a house and who had no choice but to wildcamp and occasionally stay on cheap sites off-season - and these were local Cornish people. As you say, there are people around who just haven't a clue about how some of their compatriots are forced to live.

 

[mariesnowgoose]

We should have a campaign to introduce Aires in the UK.

I've never used one as we haven't been abroad in our camper yet, but they seem like a damn good idea to me.

There is definitely a business opportunity for someone, whether it be private individuals with the land to do so, local councils, or someone who wants to go the whole hog and go national.

I'm not bothered about the lady's comments about wild campers, as has been said by several folks she is perfectly entitled to her opinion.

What this highlights is the lack of good, cheap stop off/stay over points aka Aires as there is obviously a need for something like this for motorhomers in the UK.
Plus I bet it would attract more foreign motorhomers = more tourist revenue.

Those with plenty of money and reasons for wanting to stay on an official camp site can do so, those who can't afford to or don't want to will at least have the basic amenities of the aires to enable them to keep on rolling and enables safe disposal of waste etc.

Bit like fly tipping. If you close council tips, which they're doing in County Durham, you can bet your life fly tipping will increase.
With aires you're starting the other way round. We don't have any to begin with, so some irresponsible campers will dump stuff illegally and give us all a bad name.
You'll always get folk behaving irresponsibly, whether there are refuse tips or aires available or not, but surely it's got to be a good idea for the majority of us.

 

[vindiboy]

Oh God, here we go again! Dumb camp site owners? What about dumb people who can't work out that if you have an amount of land for your site that it is far better to make it into proper pitches and charge the going rate? And your idea then means that every shower block and every toilet would have to be locked and keys issued to everyone. Of course the motorhomers would never use the showers would they when they've only paid a fiver for a pitch with no facilities? Oh yea!

But you perfectly illustrate my point. You have quite clearly not given the slightest thought to the outcome, or cost, or efficacy of your suggestions, but you come on here talking about 'dumb' site owners. What business have you been successful in that gives you the right to accuse site owners of being dumb?

And if you really are happy to pay a small amount for an overnight stop with basic facilities, what's wrong with the thousands of CLs that already exist, something that you will not find in France by the way? And if people aren't willing to use these CLs because of the cost, what makes you think that they'll pay a similar price to camp outside a site on a basic facility?

Why do you feel the need to constantly denigrate people just because they may not provide exactly what you want?

And I've just noticed that we still have people talking about her charging £30 a night. Don't they read the posts? Her site charges £11 in the off-season and a maximum of £18.95 for the high season plus EHU if you want it. And I've explained above why no site owner in Cornwall with half a brain would give up a valuable piece of land to get a third of the revenue that he or she gets from people wanting proper pitches. Is that so hard to work out?

The reason I called them dumb is that they cannot work out that a van parked in a layby has no facilities, so if they offered a parking area with water and toilet dump, and possibly electricity at further cost they would generate more business for themselves rather than moaning that they are struggling to make a living, I use CL and CS sites extensively for your information, I have also been on sites where one is issued with codes for the shower blocks, without which one cannot enter so that overcomes your key theory, not rocket science is it.
I am aware that CLs do not exist in France but there is France Passion which is very similar to our CL system and at least the site owner can make some money, so dumb . yes I stick by that.

 

[wildman]

Aires in the UK would be a grand idea, but who is going to pay for the land and setting them up service them etc, are we as ratepayers expected to pay, that would seem unfair on the non motorhome users. The CL system is quite extensive and usually quite cheap but do bare in mind even a CL has costs, it has cost me over £3k so set mine up and if I wish to add electricity then another £10k has to be found,, who will pay for that, septic tanks cost nearly £100 to be emptied, business rate, and insurance have to be factored in sono one is making a lot of money, most take years to break even. A full site owner invests massive amounts of money in providing just the infrastructure and should be able to recoup it. If they carge too much people will not come, too little and they run at a loss. Most of us seldom use a site and even though I own a CL that includes me but we must remain aware that even wild camping someone somewhere is picking up the tab.

 

[mariesnowgoose]

I am aware that CLs do not exist in France but there is France Passion which is very similar to our CL system and at least the site owner can make some money, so dumb . yes I stick by that.

What is a CL? (yes I could Google it, but I want to know how it's different to an aire, and you chaps seem to know a lot about this subject)

c:

 

[mariesnowgoose]

Aires in the UK would be a grand idea, but who is going to pay for the land and setting them up service them etc, are we as ratepayers expected to pay, that would seem unfair on the non motorhome users. The CL system is quite extensive and usually quite cheap but do bare in mind even a CL has costs, it has cost me over £3k so set mine up and if I wish to add electricity then another £10k has to be found,, who will pay for that, septic tanks cost nearly £100 to be emptied, business rate, and insurance have to be factored in sono one is making a lot of money, most take years to break even. A full site owner invests massive amounts of money in providing just the infrastructure and should be able to recoup it. If they carge too much people will not come, too little and they run at a loss. Most of us seldom use a site and even though I own a CL that includes me but we must remain aware that even wild camping someone somewhere is picking up the tab.

Good points. But we pay taxes for lots of things that many of us don't use, so I don't see why motorhomers shouldn't get a bit of the action.

Doubt whether anything will happen on the council front due to our current state of economic depression.

:idea:

We could get the bankers to pay!

 

[John H]

Aires in the UK would be a grand idea, but who is going to pay for the land and setting them up service them etc, are we as ratepayers expected to pay, that would seem unfair on the non motorhome users.

I take your point but we could start by simply setting up what the French call "aires de stationment", which basically means setting aside spaces on car parks specifically for motorhomes to overnight on. The cost of this would be zero and if only a small proportion of visitors shop in the area then that is profit for the local community for nothing.

The system could be developed from there if they charge a modest amount (say £5) for overnighting and thus build up a fund which could eventually be used to put in a fresh water tap and a waste dump (the cost would not be great because there would presumably be a water supply nearby and a man-hole access to the sewers). The really successful ones could then later consider putting in electricity but that wouldn't really be necessary for most people.

 

[Bushtrekker]

More than me jobs worth mate

As an ex-council officer I'm used to reading the minds of councillors and also to working with obstructive officers. I can imagine what would happen here, as health and safety was cited as a reason for doing nothing, because you can't get sued if you do nothing. Another thing which I noticed in France was the lack of vandalism...at Dieppe there's a water fountain on the beach and in several places we noticed that wheelie bins were used for litter. Can you imagine that happening here and them surviving for long? A lot of things are done in
councils because they involve the pet interest of a councillor or senior officer, irrespective of whether they are viable, appropriate, or even a good idea.

If somebody got hold of the tourist bodies in each area and through them to the councillors there might be a chance. A lot of us also go out in Winter, when tourists are like rocking horse manure, adding to the local community, but probably not to the takings of camp site owners as they are too far away in their Spanish holiday villas to notice whether we are there or not

 

[John H]

I can imagine what would happen here, as health and safety was cited as a reason for doing nothing, because you can't get sued if you do nothing.

You have just described the prevailing view among the many senior council officers I had to deal with for many years! I couldn't agree more. :bow:

 

[elainekirk]

Simple fact of the matter is that this camp site owner who most years must make a profit for her to be in business is asking that the council forces an extra (note the word extra is used as most sites already have steady tent/ caravan/mhome trade) fifty vans onto sites thereby removing between eight and ten thousand pounds a week from the local retail trade as it can be assumed the vast majority of wilder do invest in local shops, pubs etc and put the money in their pockets. This would have a knock on effect on their own business as local retailers failing would reduce the lure of the area to tourists .

 

[groyne]

I take your point but we could start by simply setting up what the French call "aires de stationment", which basically means setting aside spaces on car parks specifically for motorhomes to overnight on. The cost of this would be zero and if only a small proportion of visitors shop in the area then that is profit for the local community for nothing.

They tried this in Guisborough North Yorkshire but ended it after an 18 month trial showed only 2 Motorhomes used the parking spaces in that time. This is only what I read on Motorhome Friendly and Unfriendly Parking - Teesside/Cleveland and I don't know how much the parking cost.

 

[John H]

They tried this in Guisborough North Yorkshire but ended it after an 18 month trial showed only 2 Motorhomes used the parking spaces in that time. This is only what I read on Motorhome Friendly and Unfriendly Parking - Teesside/Cleveland and I don't know how much the parking cost.

....and therein lies the problem. In France they would say that this is costing us nothing so why end it? Instead they would do something about advertising it. In England the prevailing view among senior council officers seems to be as stated above - if they do nothing they can't get blamed for anything. I despair of the British attitude (to most things) sometimes.

 

[Funky Farmer]

There needs to be a serious compromise IMHO Some campsites need to get real with their pricing

Some tight motorhomers need to realise that everything has a cost to somebody, somewhere Nobody can expect something for nothing in this day and age Please don't start on about road tax and insurance!!!! We all have to pay that, it doesn't include special rights for any group.

There you go. shall I emigrate now or later.

 

[John H]

everything has a cost to somebody, somewhere

For the most part I would agree with you but where is the cost in letting motorhomes park overnight on tarmac that nobody else would use? You could say that emptying the litter bins involves a cost but that would apply if we were in a car and picnicking during the day time - and nobody seems to object to that!

 

[Funky Farmer]

For the most part I would agree with you but where is the cost in letting motorhomes park overnight on tarmac that nobody else would use? You could say that emptying the litter bins involves a cost but that would apply if we were in a car and picnicking during the day time - and nobody seems to object to that!

OK John. We will go with the implication of your post, that ALL motorhomers are little angels, who wouldn't leave litter. empty their tanks on the move and other such things. Why are an increasing number of people turning against us? It isn't because we are all sweetness and light. We need to start seeing things through the eyes of others. The same as some campsite owners need to.

 

[John H]

OK John. We will go with the implication of your post, that ALL motorhomers are little angels, who wouldn't leave litter. empty their tanks on the move and other such things. Why are an increasing number of people turning against us? It isn't because we are all sweetness and light. We need to start seeing things through the eyes of others. The same as some campsite owners need to.

If I gave the impression that we are all little angels then I apologise. Like everybody else, I have seen inconsiderate motorhomers emptying casettes on the beach etc (fortunately rarely) but the point I was trying to make is that there are inconsiderate idiots in all sectors of society and the cost of cleaning up after our idiots is but a small proportion of the cost of clearing up after the picnicking idiots or the day-tripper idiots or the resident idiots. I cannot see that it would actually cost any more to allow a few (and I agree it should be a few, not 50 plus) motorhomes to park overnight.

The converse of this is: can you imagine any tourist resort banning day trippers because they cost a lot to clear up after and because they don't use local restaurants or accommodation?