Is a "Hab Check" simply a scam?

[Moped]

The fact is if a van has an internal GRP skin damp proof meters do not work. They can only detect damp in wood as this causes the resistance of the current generated by the damp detector to change as it reduces resistance.

So if a van has an internal GRP skin, it is impossible to test for damp using a prong meter. So if a van has this internal skin then manufacturers do not incorporate any wood in the sandwich between the inner and outer skins.

Are you absolutely certain that you Roller Team van does not have a marine ply inner skin?

The GRP inner skin acts as a vapour barrier as it does not permit any damp to pass through it. In addition the insulation material in the sandwich has similar anti damp properties. So the spore issue is a non starter.

So for anybody who has a damp meter and it shows readings when using it on the inner skin of the van, then the electricity the meter produces to generate a reading has to be passing through wood. It does not pass through GRP.

Try using the meter on the GRP outer skin of the van. It will not read.

 

[Fisherman]

The fact is if a van has an internal GRP skin damp proof meters do not work. They can only detect damp in wood as this causes the resistance of the current generated by the damp detector to change as it reduces resistance.

So if a van has an internal GRP skin, it is impossible to test for damp using a prong meter. So if a van has this internal skin then manufacturers do not incorporate any wood in the sandwich between the inner and outer skins.

Are you absolutely certain that you Roller Team van does not have a marine ply inner skin?

The GRP inner skin acts as a vapour barrier as it does not permit any damp to pass through it. In addition the insulation material in the sandwich has similar anti damp properties. So the spore issue is a non starter.

My van has no timber in its construction, this applies to the vast majority of modern vans now moped, few still use timber.

https://www.rollerteammotorhomes.co.uk/pegaso-590-review-by-caravan-guard

My vans exterior walls are constructed of glass reinforced plastic (GRP) but not the internal walls. I have access to every wall within the van, but the lounge window area is surrounded by a protruding cover, making access to that wall difficult. But every six months I use my meter and can check for dampness. I am no expert but if your internal walls are GRP this would affect ventilation within the van, I was not aware that vans were constructed using GRP internally, but then we learn something every day, and I have learnt something here, cheers.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I don't bother, if I was concerned I'd have a simple gas and electric safety test done by one of the mobile places, much cheaper and they seem more knowledgeable, most carry a few common spares so can often sort out minor issues too.

 

[1807truckman]

That’s correct, I was quoted £140 for a damp check.
How on earth is that justified.
I can check my van for water ingress in about 10-15 minutes.
This is simply an easy earner for the dealers.
I read on another forum that Hymer dealers are charging £350 for a hab check.
They really are out of order.

The Hymer I had I used to call in at a Hymer dealer in Germany each year on my way back from the Nurburgring for the damp check to be done to comply with the warranty terms used to cost 45 euro.

 

[Fisherman]

The Hymer I had I used to call in at a Hymer dealer in Germany each year on my way back from the Nurburgring for the damp check to be done to comply with the warranty terms used to cost 45 euro.

Well some are charging £350 here. I am not saying this is what they all charge, but here’s the post i read. I was quoted for a damp check £140, and I have a roller team.

habitation check cost

booked my m/home in for it's first annual hab/check cost is £340.is this a record add to the fuel cost of getting there and back and it's £400, seems a lot.lowdhams.by the way.

forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk

 

[hania00]

Isn't there a difference between a Hab Check and a Hab Service, I image they would service the boiler, fidge, fire and the gas system, treat the water system, check vents in which case £200 would probably be justified.

we were quoted £240 for a. Hab check (PVC)
- i was going to go for it until he said that if there is something wrong they don’t repair/service it - I would have to get someone else to do that !

 

[Tezza33]

nobody here has a fecken clue.

Don't run yourself down Trev, you're not that bad

 

[Fisherman]

Don't run yourself down Trev, you're not that bad

Here’s a video of Trev after he’s had a few

 

[Moped]

My van has no timber in its construction, this applies to the vast majority of modern vans now moped, few still use timber.

https://www.rollerteammotorhomes.co.uk/pegaso-590-review-by-caravan-guard

My vans exterior walls are constructed of glass reinforced plastic (GRP) but not the internal walls. I have access to every wall within the van, but the lounge window area is surrounded by a protruding cover, making access to that wall difficult. But every six months I use my meter and can check for dampness. I am no expert but if your internal walls are GRP this would affect ventilation within the van, I was not aware that vans were constructed using GRP internally, but then we learn something every day, and I have learnt something here, cheers.

As this is the case, then there is no need to test for damp as it impossible to do this. The Pegaso floor is also damp proof because of its grp double skin specification. Whilst the internal walls are of wood origin it is pointless testing these for damp as moisture cannot penetrate through the outer bodyshell with its inner grp lining.

If you are being charged for a damp test for this Pegaso vehicle you are being conned as no damp meter will work unless there is wood involved. There is no way to test for damp and the only evidence of water ingress through a seal is physical evidence of a drip or pool of water.

As for ventilation to avoid any internal mold forming Pegaso do provide a means of allowing air to circulate within the van whilst all doors and windows are shut which they show in their promotional literature. So again nothing to be concerned about here. Actually Pegaso do a very good job of making the van entirely damp resistant so a nice van to have.

 

[trevskoda]

As this is the case, then there is no need to test for damp as it impossible to do this. The Pegaso floor is also damp proof because of its grp double skin specification. Whilst the internal walls are of wood origin it is pointless testing these for damp as moisture cannot penetrate through the outer bodyshell with its inner grp lining.

If you are being charged for a damp test for this Pegaso vehicle you are being conned as no damp meter will work unless there is wood involved. There is no way to test for damp and the only evidence of water ingress through a seal is physical evidence of a drip or pool of water.

Ah but are you a bed wetter, cause for concern?

 

[Fisherman]

As this is the case, then there is no need to test for damp as it impossible to do this. The Pegaso floor is also damp proof because of its grp double skin specification. Whilst the internal walls are of wood origin it is pointless testing these for damp as moisture cannot penetrate through the outer bodyshell with its inner grp lining.

If you are being charged for a damp test for this Pegaso vehicle you are being conned as no damp meter will work unless there is wood involved. There is no way to test for damp and the only evidence of water ingress through a seal is physical evidence of a drip or pool of water.

As for ventilation to avoid any internal mold forming Pegaso do provide a means of allowing air to circulate within the van whilst all doors and windows are shut which they show in their promotional literature. So again nothing to be concerned about here. Actually Pegaso do a very good job of making the van entirely damp resistant so a nice van to have.

I have had three checks carried out. The first paid for by catterick caravans, and owing to a dispute with Roller Team they paid for the last two. So I have not been conned. The first two checks were carried out by catterick caravans, and the last one in may by Dicksons of Perth, were I have just ordered a new van. All three checks included drawings showing the areas checked for dampness. So what you are saying is that both dealers are conning people, not just the one.
I have attached the report from Dixon’s of Perth who did the last check. Also I can take readings myself, three months after getting my van I got a 23% reading below the small lounge window on the O/S. This was caused by a faulty seal, and the dealer had to refit this window.

Leakes can develop were there are joints or openings.

I am aware of the forced ventilation and were these areas are in my van.

Yes I agree it’s a great van, we have loved having it, but the sleeping arrangements are not ideal for us, hence we are moving on to a van with fixed rear longitudinal beds.

Also I copied this from out and about live

Newer motorhome construction methods involve;
• Fewer fixings
• More high-tech bonding techniques
• Interlocking panels and joints
• Stronger plastics replacing wood.
• GRP/ABS underfloor protection

This allows for longer warranties, but water ingress can still happen so check the small print. A couple of things to look out for in the terms and conditions are:
• Is an annual habitation service required?
• Does it have to be undertaken at a certain date?
• Or by an authorised workshop?
• Is it transferable if buying a used motorhome from a dealer?
If it’s a private sale or auction you should insist on a damp check, service history and full MoT if possible.

 

[Moped]

The damp report must have been based on a visual or tactile examination only. If the van has a GRP inner skin a traditional 2 prong electrode damp meter will not be able to take readings. GRP does not conduct electricity which is fundamentally how a damp meter reader works. Any surface moisture or ponding as a result of seal leaks or drips should be obvious from a visual or tactile examination.

That is the logic. Could an engineer or scientist disprove this logic?

EDIT:- There is a meter reader used in the marine industry to check GRP composite boat hulls which uses high audio frequency signals to detect moisture. Costs around £700. If you have a modern van with a composite double skinned body and your service agent is claiming that a damp check can be carried out, ask them what type of meter reader they are using. If they are using a reader used in GRP composite marine technology that is high frequency audio based then you know you are being offered a genuine systematic test:-

Tramex SMM5 - Skipper 5 Moisture Meter​

The Tramex Skipper 5 is an instant, precise, dual-depth, analog, non-destructive Marine moisture meter that detects excess moisture hidden in GRP boat hulls, decks and coach roofs including a sandwich or cored structures. The unique three-electrode array provides both shallow (10 mm / ⅜") and deep (30 mm / 1¼") perceptivity to help establish the depth of any moisture within GRP composites. In addition to the classic moving-coil display, readings may also be sent to the free Tramex App on paired Android and iOS devices.
GRP composites and hardwoods are non-conducting materials, nevertheless, their electrical properties change with increasing moisture content. The Skipper 5 determines moisture content by applying a high-audio frequency signal between a pair of soft rubber electrodes on the instrument base. A third electrode provides genuine shallow range measurements on a smaller footprint. Capacitive coupling between the electrodes and the sample allows impedance to be determined. This is interpreted as a moisture value and displayed on a large, clear moving coil meter. Additionally, meter readings may be sent instantly to a Tramex App on Android and iOS mobile devices by Bluetooth

 

[GMJ]

I have them done purely to keep the warranty in place. I am glad I do as my last MH was fairly riddled with damp and was all fixed under warranty which saved me many £000's.

I also find that they provide an extra set of eyes looking at the MH and spot things that I, as a less technically minded MH'er, would miss.

None of this makes paying the bill any easier though so I do take that point

 

[Fisherman]

The damp report must have been based on a visual or tactile examination only. If the van has a GRP inner skin a traditional 2 prong electrode damp meter will not be able to take readings. GRP does not conduct electricity which is fundamentally how a damp meter reader works. Any surface moisture or ponding as a result of seal leaks or drips should be obvious from a visual or tactile examination.

That is the logic. Could an engineer or scientist disprove this logic?

EDIT:- There is a meter reader used in the marine industry to check GRP composite boat hulls which uses high audio frequency signals to detect moisture. Costs around £700. If you have a modern van with a composite double skinned body and your service agent is claiming that a damp check can be carried out, ask them what type of meter reader they are using. If they are using a reader used in GRP composite marine technology that is high frequency audio based then you know you are being offered a genuine systematic test:-

Tramex SMM5 - Skipper 5 Moisture Meter​

The Tramex Skipper 5 is an instant, precise, dual-depth, analog, non-destructive Marine moisture meter that detects excess moisture hidden in GRP boat hulls, decks and coach roofs including a sandwich or cored structures. The unique three-electrode array provides both shallow (10 mm / ⅜") and deep (30 mm / 1¼") perceptivity to help establish the depth of any moisture within GRP composites. In addition to the classic moving-coil display, readings may also be sent to the free Tramex App on paired Android and iOS devices.
GRP composites and hardwoods are non-conducting materials, nevertheless, their electrical properties change with increasing moisture content. The Skipper 5 determines moisture content by applying a high-audio frequency signal between a pair of soft rubber electrodes on the instrument base. A third electrode provides genuine shallow range measurements on a smaller footprint. Capacitive coupling between the electrodes and the sample allows impedance to be determined. This is interpreted as a moisture value and displayed on a large, clear moving coil meter. Additionally, meter readings may be sent instantly to a Tramex App on Android and iOS mobile devices by Bluetooth

I assume that dealerships worth millions charging £250 per inspection, can afford £700 for the appropriate meter. Your van can leak, and as I said initially, I am surprised that swift have stated that damp checks are not required. Thanks for the information.

 

[Colinc]

Tramex SMM5 - Skipper 5 Moisture Meter

I don't think they would use that meter. It is is looking for water within a GRP structure. Boats can develop what is known a osmosis. Small cracks and holes in the gelcoat top layer allow water into the matting layer. The chemicals used in the GRP then absorb this into the GRP. You get a distinctive bump in the top coating and, if it gets more severe, those blisters burst. A big problem in boats although it usually happens after many years in the water unless there was faulty layup in the GRP from the beginning.

I believe a motorhome is unlikely to get osmosis unless immersed in water for some reason, or very old, or a terrible build. You would look for it on the outside, not within.

I think motorhomes use a Protimeter as the standard meter. About £200-£300 on Amazon, although there are more expensive models. They seem to work with the twin probes and electric current method.

My hab check didn't test anything as it says "unable to test solid panel van". They also didn't check the battery as it was "under the seat" - where they had installed it two years earlier. Maybe I just got a bad tester.

 

[Fisherman]

I don't think they would use that meter. It is is looking for water within a GRP structure. Boats can develop what is known a osmosis. Small cracks and holes in the gelcoat top layer allow water into the matting layer. The chemicals used in the GRP then absorb this into the GRP. You get a distinctive bump in the top coating and, if it gets more severe, those blisters burst. A big problem in boats although it usually happens after many years in the water unless there was faulty layup in the GRP from the beginning.

I believe a motorhome is unlikely to get osmosis unless immersed in water for some reason, or very old, or a terrible build. You would look for it on the outside, not within.

I think motorhomes use a Protimeter as the standard meter. About £200-£300 on Amazon, although there are more expensive models. They seem to work with the twin probes and electric current method.

My hab check didn't test anything as it says "unable to test solid panel van". They also didn't check the battery as it was "under the seat" - where they had installed it two years earlier. Maybe I just got a bad tester.

The bottom line Colin, any van can leak, even van conversions. Manufacturing a van in such a way that you could not carry out proper damp checks would be counter productive. Leaks would go unnoticed for long periods even years leading to all sorts of issues. Yes modern vans are much less prone to leaks, but as is advised by Out and About Live and manufacturers, they should be checked for leaks.
When I had my window refitted due to a leak, the dealer was replacing the whole of one side of a GRP van that was only two years old, and it was a Burstner who have an excellent reputation for build quality. I was on a campsite in the Lake District in June and got chatting to a guy who had a GRP van with a distinctive bump on the side of the van. His van had developed a leak and it was going to cost him thousands to get it fixed. His warranty had ran out only six months before the five year warranty finished.

 

[trevskoda]

I don't think they would use that meter. It is is looking for water within a GRP structure. Boats can develop what is known a osmosis. Small cracks and holes in the gelcoat top layer allow water into the matting layer. The chemicals used in the GRP then absorb this into the GRP. You get a distinctive bump in the top coating and, if it gets more severe, those blisters burst. A big problem in boats although it usually happens after many years in the water unless there was faulty layup in the GRP from the beginning.

I believe a motorhome is unlikely to get osmosis unless immersed in water for some reason, or very old, or a terrible build. You would look for it on the outside, not within.

I think motorhomes use a Protimeter as the standard meter. About £200-£300 on Amazon, although there are more expensive models. They seem to work with the twin probes and electric current method.

My hab check didn't test anything as it says "unable to test solid panel van". They also didn't check the battery as it was "under the seat" - where they had installed it two years earlier. Maybe I just got a bad tester.

Correct, hence many boats that stay in water 24/7 are two pack poly painted, will not be a problem for MH.