Great news on the Burntisland car park

[Fisherman]

I just received this response from Robbie Blythe.
As usual Robbie is ahead of the game, and this carpark should be sorted out next year.

This country needs more like Robbie, shame about the southern part of the Firth of Forth, run by people who obviously despise us. Anyway here’s the good news for a change.


Good Morning William



No image I am afraid however I have been down a few times so aware of the challenges.



Fife Coast & Countryside Trust are currently in discussion to managing the carpark in the same manner as we do with the other ones providing limited overnight parking that is sustainable. We have consulted with the Leisure Centre, The Local Community Council and all the elected members. This link takes you to the minutes of the August meeting: https://www.burntislandcc.org.uk/webs/371/documents/Minutes 11th August 2023.pdf



All going well we aim to have the carpark maintained by FCCT at the start of the year and I am awaiting the outcome of a funding application.



Kind Regards



Robbie Blyth

Head of Operations
Fife Coast and Countryside Trust
Pitcairn Centre
Moidart Drive
Glenrothes
Fife
KY7 6ET

Tel. 03451 55 55 55 ext. 444981
Mob. 07940774065

 

[Fisherman]

Just read through Robbie’s comments to the meeting regarding this car park.
One of Robbie’s points that we help to prevent improper use in the car parks, and would report any such use, has been his opinion since I have known him. This is a sound argument, one certain other authorities should carefully look at.
He is also pushing for an elsan point.
Note also Robbie’s comments on cassettes being emptied into the sea, he puts that into perspective.

here’s the extract from the Burntisland minutes from Robbie.


Robbie, who is very familiar with the Beacon Leisure Centre where he previously worked in 1999, outlined the role of FCCT in Burntisland including: managing the Fife Coastal Path (FCP) which runs through the town and along the beach promenade; all things beach related; removal of dead whales.
Motor home park-up initiative: The Beacon seaside car park is a FC asset that’s not on Transportation Services Account (FC) and under the management of the Beacon Leisure Centre, which is operated by Fife Sports and Leisure Trust (FSLT). He explained how motor homes have proved both management challenges and opportunities across the UK and worldwide even in Australia. Their use and ownership have greatly increased. They are regulated by the Caravan and Camping Act, but legislation has not kept pace with their increased usage. The Beacon seaside car park is very popular with motor homes with around a dozen frequently parked up and quite commonly over twice this number. This car park is a ‘non-regulated public car park’ which means that it is legal for any taxed and insured vehicle with a valid MOT certificate to park there. However, if staying overnight, this could be interpreted as a ‘habitation’ which is illegal. Though due to its transient nature difficult to legally challenge. Putting in a lockable barrier to prevent overnight use merely moves the problem elsewhere.
A.S. 12/08/23

Environmental issues can be difficult to manage at a ‘hybrid carpark / campsite’. This includes motor homes parked too closely together to be fire safe, disposal of wastewater, and littering. Any antisocial behavior (e.g. drug taking and dealing, loud music, vandalism) should be reported to Police Scotland. However, anecdotal evidence e.g. at Craigmead car park in the Lomond Hills, has shown that use of car parks by responsible motor home owner/users actually discourages antisocial behavior at the site.
After an initial successful pilot including Kingsbarns and Elie where signage has been used to designate and limit motor home spaces (to eight and seven respectively), FCCT is now rolling out this ‘nudge’ initiative. This involves introducing a parking charge notification scheme, which can involve issuing tickets or using an ‘honesty box’. The parking charge is used to offset some of the additional management costs, advisory notices etc., and can be ring fenced for local community environmental projects.
Robbie suggested FCCT roll out this initiative to Burntisland. He suggested ten motor home park-up spaces could be provided at the Beacon seaside car park and a further two at the round car park off Lammerlaws Road beside the Port entrance road. The latter could have a new gravel surface applied and both car parks white-lined off for motor homes and other vehicles. Signage would be erected. Charges would need agreed and are usually around £5 to £10 per night. An initial 12-month assessment would be trialed.
Cllrs MacDougall asked about the resource implications. Robbie replied there are currently three FCCT staff who each work 30 hours/week between 6am and 10pm and they rotate around the FCCT managed carparks. They speak to and issue polite letters to transgressors and keep a data base of use. Frequent transgressors can be sent a Parking Charge if they do not follow the carpark rules which is sometimes misinterpreted as a fine. FCCT are members of the British Parking Association.
Current BCC concerns on motor homes parking in the Beacon seaside car park:
Physical spacing: Motor homes often park too close together. Each van takes up two to four car parking spaces and Burntisland is already short of car parking capacity during holidays and in high season. The existing lines are difficult to see in that car park. The vans prefer to park up at the seaside edge of the car park so cars, including those with less physically able occupants, are unable to enjoy the sea views parked behind a ‘wall of vans’. There are Blue Badge user spaces but only one faces the sea. The access area for the slipway needs to be kept clear and marked off as a no parking zone.
Waste water: Burntisland beach and bay is popular with open water swimmers all year long, and popular for non-powered water sports (stand-up paddle boards, kayaks and sit-on-tops, wind surfers) and with jet skiers. We fear contamination of our Award Winning beach and the sea from sewage from mobile homes. Motor home wastewater cassettes need emptied regularly, the frequency depending on use. There is no cassette disposal point locally. Rented motor homes must be returned with an empty cassette. Motor home users are said to have been seen pouring waste into the sea or into rainwater gullies. How do the Showmen families living in mobile homes on the Links for the three summer months dispose of their waste? Cllr MacDougall agreed to ask FC and the local Showmen’s Guild rep. what their arrangements are. Robbie said he thought that the effects of rainwater run-off from agricultural land poses a much bigger pollution hazard than a few motor home users disposing of van waste inappropriately. He said the large tidal flow at Burntisland Bay helps keep the seawater and beach clean. Never-the-less, BCC remains concerned. He suggested the public toilets at the Beacon may be an attractive alternative to using van facilities. However, he was advised that the restricted opening hours of the Beacon and the staff unwillingness to admit that the public toilets are not for leisure centre users only, make this of limited help. He said he thought that attracting potential customers into the leisure centre with free public toilets should be good for Beacon business. An above ground wastewater temporary storage tank for cassette use was discussed. The costs of regular emptying of such were thought prohibitive and any split to the plastic causing leakage would pose an environmental hazard to the area. Could a cassette wastewater disposal facility and a public toilet accessible from the car park (like those erected recently at Pettycur) be constructed at the Beacon as part of its planned renovation? Robbie and Cllr MacDougall agreed that discussions with Emma Walker and colleagues at FSLT and FC would be

 

[Fisherman]

My reply to Robbie.

Hi Robbie,

Many thanks for your reply, and link.

That’s great news Robbie, I thought as usual you would be aware of this situation, but I did not expect such excellent news Robbie, but knowing you I should have known better. The members will be delighted with this response.

Robbie quite honestly you never fail to astound me, with all you have achieved and in such a short time. Fancy a job the other side of the Firth of Forth, you would sort that lot out Robbie.

Take care Robbie, please keep up the great work, we all really appreciate it.

Bill.

 

[Debroos]

I notice his comments on how motor homes like to park facing the sea and how this leaves car occupants, who would also like to see the sea, having to park behind and face a wall of white.
I have seen this so many times and no wonder it leads to I'll feeling. I would have thought that the bigger motorhomes could park behind cars and still see the sea.
Shame that cloning doesn't exist. Yer Robbie man could be spread around the country then!

 

[Fisherman]

I notice his comments on how motor homes like to park facing the sea and how this leaves car occupants, who would also like to see the sea, having to park behind and face a wall of white.
I have seen this so many times and no wonder it leads to I'll feeling. I would have thought that the bigger motorhomes could park behind cars and still see the sea.
Shame that cloning doesn't exist. Yer Robbie man could be spread around the country then!

Robbie is proposing ten spaces in this carpark, and another two elsewhere in the village.
He really is a breath of fresh air.
And he knows what he is talking about, something rare in the councils throughout the UK.
I bet without Robbie, next year barriers would have went up.
I know a £10 charge will annoy some.
But the alternative was complete loss of this car park for everyone of us.
And every £10 will be used to improve facilities, thats his promise.

 

[The laird]

He is a gent always helped and tried his utmost at St Andrews b4 it got handed back to the golf trust
well done bill

 

[colinm]

I notice his comments on how motor homes like to park facing the sea and how this leaves car occupants, who would also like to see the sea, having to park behind and face a wall of white.
I have seen this so many times and no wonder it leads to I'll feeling. I would have thought that the bigger motorhomes could park behind cars and still see the sea.
Shame that cloning doesn't exist. Yer Robbie man could be spread around the country then!

This reminded me of Perranporth, I had an old chap complain to me that we where blocking his and wife's view of the bay from carpark by parking on road, I actually had every sympathy for for them, but as I pointed out the council had chosen to erect height barriers for the carpark so we wheren't able to park in there.

 

[Debroos]

This reminded me of Perranporth, I had an old chap complain to me that we where blocking his and wife's view of the bay from carpark by parking on road, I actually had every sympathy for for them, but as I pointed out the council had chosen to erect height barriers for the carpark so we wheren't able to park in there.

It was Cornwall I was thinking of. We live there and it must be one of the worst places for wild camping. Not just the council. There were a lot of lovely cliff top open areas which were free and the NT have taken over and started charging and banning overnighting.

 

[colinm]

It was Cornwall I was thinking of. We live there and it must be one of the worst places for wild camping. Not just the council. There were a lot of lovely cliff top open areas which were free and the NT have taken over and started charging and banning overnighting.

That wasn't wild camping, it was just parking for a short time in the early evening.

 

[Debroos]

That wasn't wild camping, it was just parking for a short time in the early evening.

Sorry I mixed 2 issues into one. Both are big problems down here

 

[Fisherman]

It was Cornwall I was thinking of. We live there and it must be one of the worst places for wild camping. Not just the council. There were a lot of lovely cliff top open areas which were free and the NT have taken over and started charging and banning overnighting.

Robbie Blythe summed the situation to a tee. The government and local councils have failed to provide facilities for all of the vans currently on the road. Give us your thousands of pounds in vat, your road tax, your fuel duty, now bog off and find somewhere else to park, you’re just a nuisance to be dealt with now.

The problem is there are not enough Robbie’s out there, people who have done their research and know what they are talking about. Councils are taking decisions without any proper due diligence, and with little information of who we are and what we need. Guided by il informed NIMBYS who complain and set the ball rolling. Cornwall is a stunning part of the UK, and it’s a shame, and shameful the way they view and treat us.

 

[marchie]

1. Provide the facilities for responsible motorhoming
2. Charge a fair price for the facilities [£5-£10pn]
3. Come down like a ton of bricks on the idiots who think the Rules apply only to other people with a £25 minimum Fine with the proceeds going to the Motorhome facilities provision/maintenance funds

We stayed in March 2022 at Santa Margarida [about 25km from Barcelona] where the Aire has freshwater, grey and black water disposal facilities on a standard template layout, funded by the local vineyards. The Aire is free to use, the local Tourist Office staff arrive at dawn on Saturday morning and distribute maps and tourism booklets, hecking with any early risers whether they have queries or problems, and trying to answer these

Result? The local bars/cafes are mobbed, the businesses benefit from the 'didn't have to pay to park, so let's have a meal/beer', and the vineyard proprietors get their investment in the facilities back, not least because you can see the same faces and motorhomes turning after a 24 or 48 hour break at the next Vineyard Aire at Vilafranca del Pinedes, 3km away ...

Steve

 

[Fisherman]

1. Provide the facilities for responsible motorhoming
2. Charge a fair price for the facilities [£5-£10pn]
3. Come down like a ton of bricks on the idiots who think the Rules apply only to other people with a £25 minimum Fine with the proceeds going to the Motorhome facilities provision/maintenance funds

We stayed in March 2022 at Santa Margarida [about 25km from Barcelona] where the Aire has freshwater, grey and black water disposal facilities on a standard template layout, funded by the local vineyards. The Aire is free to use, the local Tourist Office staff arrive at dawn on Saturday morning and distribute maps and tourism booklets, hecking with any early risers whether they have queries or problems, and trying to answer these

Result? The local bars/cafes are mobbed, the businesses benefit from the 'didn't have to pay to park, so let's have a meal/beer', and the vineyard proprietors get their investment in the facilities back, not least because you can see the same faces and motorhomes turning after a 24 or 48 hour break at the next Vineyard Aire at Vilafranca del Pinedes, 3km away ...

Steve

Robbie introduced the £5-10 charges in order to try to keep numbers down.
And it has worked. Some car parks in Fife remain free.
But the money taken will be used to improve and extend facilities.
I think the big difference between Scotland and Europe is the sheer amount of Aires in Europe with towns possibly competing with each other. Things are slowly improving up here, each year sees lots of new Aires opening up, but we are miles behind where they are.

Overnight Parking - Fife Coast & Countryside Trust

Fife Coast & Countryside Trust (FCCT) engaged in a consultation arising from the volume of overnight motorhome parking in Fife. It was evident this

fifecoastandcountrysidetrust.co.uk

 

[Canalsman]

I take exception to this statement and challenge its validity:

However, if staying overnight, this could be interpreted as a ‘habitation’ which is illegal.

To my knowledge habitation of a vehicle most definitely is not illegal.

 

[Fisherman]

I take exception to this statement and challenge its validity:

However, if staying overnight, this could be interpreted as a ‘habitation’ which is illegal.

To my knowledge habitation of a vehicle most definitely is not illegal.

Yes I read that part, and also wondered what was meant exactly myself.

First of all Robbie was not saying that staying in a Motorhome overnight was illegal.
This would in effect end all that he has achieved and worked hard for over the past years. He by definition would be encouraging us all to carry out an illegal act by promoting something if it was defined as illegal. He was referring to “habitation”,
and how this could be defined in law. And as I am no lawyer I leave such matters to others qualified in such jargon.

But this car park was subject to some long stayers. One van last year spent several weeks before moving from the car park. I think this is what Robbie meant by using the term habitation. Someone who inhabits an area could be subject to council tax, and water rates in Scotland. This is where I think he is coming from.
People in static caravans are subject to council tax and water rates. When you stay in a campsite the owners have to pay the local council, and this charge is part of the fees we pay. Hence why he mentions the transient nature of what we do.
In Scotland we pay our council tax and water rates as one integral payment, and your water rates are determined by your council tax band.

Once this carpark is set up by Fife country and coastal trust, there will be a maximum stay of two nights applied.

If you wish to contact Robbie for clarification, I have included his contact details.
But I can assure you Robbie has never done or stated anything that would require to be taken exception of towards us, exactly the opposite. He has worked tirelessly on our behalf, and on behalf of FCCT.

 

[marchie]

Yes I read that part, and also wondered what was meant exactly myself.

First of all Robbie was not saying that staying in a Motorhome overnight was illegal.
This would in effect end all that he has achieved and worked hard for over the past years. He by definition would be encouraging us all to carry out an illegal act by promoting something if it was defined as illegal. He was referring to “habitation”,
and how this could be defined in law. And as I am no lawyer I leave such matters to others qualified in such jargon.

But this car park was subject to some long stayers. One van last year spent several weeks before moving from the car park. I think this is what Robbie meant by using the term habitation. Someone who inhabits an area would be subject to council tax, and water rates in Scotland. This is where I think he is coming from.
People in static caravans are subject to council tax and water rates. When you stay in a campsite the owners have to pay the local council, and this charge is part of the fees we pay. Hence why he mentions the transient nature of what we do.
In Scotland we pay our council tax and water rates as one integral payment, and your water rates are determined by your council tax band.

Once this carpark is set up by Fife country and coastal trust, there will be a maximum stay of two nights applied.

If you wish to contact Robbie for clarification, I have included his contact details.
But I can assure you Robbie has never done or stated anything that would require to be taken exception of towards us, exactly the opposite. He has worked tirelessly on our behalf, and on behalf of FCCT.

This takes us into local politics, Bill, so a tiptoe around the subject. There is a shortage of social housing in Fife [and we're not alone], and some 18 months ago, there was an old black [possibly ex-mobile library] Van on the Burntisland Links Car Park that was being lived in permanently. I believe that that it is this 'habitation' that is deemed/referred to as illegal. The land opposite the small roundabout opposite the Leisure Centre that may become the M/Home Parking currently has 1 M/Home and 1 PVC that have been parked for several months [I spoke to the M/Homer, and when he passes us on his daily journey for genny supplies whilst we wander around Burntisland, he and his wife both wave to us!]. Again, the provision of sufficient social housingwould remove the 'illegal' habitation, but the solution won't happen quickly

European example; there is an Aire on a piece of land used to park Council Vehicles some 25 miles from Dieppe. The appearance is identical to the area in Burntisland, but about 50% larger. It has a barrier controlled entrance, is free to use [donations accepted], and has free EHU, freshwater, grey & black waste disposal, and a small, immaculate toilet and shower block. Available for Ferry passengers, but also serves those in need of social housing who have acquired a M/home in the meantime. The local Council saves Housing Benefit etc, uses land that would remain unused, and for a modest investment [it would need to provide toilet & water facilities for the Council Workers using the bottom of the site anyway], has dealt with the 'illegal habitation' issue cost effectively and compassionately. The site is at St Pierre de Benouville, Dieppe and is listed on the Search App

Steve

 

[Fisherman]

This takes us into local politics, Bill, so a tiptoe around the subject. There is a shortage of social housing in Fife [and we're not alone], and some 18 months ago, there was an old black [possibly ex-mobile library] Van on the Burntisland Links Car Park that was being lived in permanently. I believe that that it is this 'habitation' that is deemed/referred to as illegal. The land opposite the small roundabout opposite the Leisure Centre that may become the M/Home Parking currently has 1 M/Home and 1 PVC that have been parked for several months [I spoke to the M/Homer, and when he passes us on his daily journey for genny supplies whilst we wander around Burntisland, he and his wife both wave to us!]. Again, the provision of sufficient social housingwould remove the 'illegal' habitation, but the solution won't happen quickly

European example; there is an Aire on a piece of land used to park Council Vehicles some 25 miles from Dieppe. The appearance is identical to the area in Burntisland, but about 50% larger. It has a barrier controlled entrance, is free to use [donations accepted], and has free EHU, freshwater, grey & black waste disposal, and a small, immaculate toilet and shower block. Available for Ferry passengers, but also serves those in need of social housing who have acquired a M/home in the meantime. The local Council saves Housing Benefit etc, uses land that would remain unused, and for a modest investment [it would need to provide toilet & water facilities for the Council Workers using the bottom of the site anyway], has dealt with the 'illegal habitation' issue cost effectively and compassionately. The site is at St Pierre de Benouville, Dieppe and is listed on the Search App

Steve

Thanks Steve that’s what I expected.
Knowing Robbie after reading that section, I knew he was not stating what we do is illegal. But I can understand why Canalsman posted as he did.

 

[alcam]

I'm sure there are places we all covet where we go for a drive , park up , have a couple of pints , food and stay the night . No need for any facilities. No idea if this applies to Burntisland or not but we are in grave danger of losing all of those places , or pay £10 for the privilege of parking overnight .
Cars in same carpark paying nothing for parking overnight
This is something that was vociferously opposed not very long ago by a few , myself included .

 

[mariesnowgoose]

This takes us into local politics, Bill, so a tiptoe around the subject. There is a shortage of social housing in Fife [and we're not alone], and some 18 months ago, there was an old black [possibly ex-mobile library] Van on the Burntisland Links Car Park that was being lived in permanently. I believe that that it is this 'habitation' that is deemed/referred to as illegal. The land opposite the small roundabout opposite the Leisure Centre that may become the M/Home Parking currently has 1 M/Home and 1 PVC that have been parked for several months [I spoke to the M/Homer, and when he passes us on his daily journey for genny supplies whilst we wander around Burntisland, he and his wife both wave to us!]. Again, the provision of sufficient social housingwould remove the 'illegal' habitation, but the solution won't happen quickly

European example; there is an Aire on a piece of land used to park Council Vehicles some 25 miles from Dieppe. The appearance is identical to the area in Burntisland, but about 50% larger. It has a barrier controlled entrance, is free to use [donations accepted], and has free EHU, freshwater, grey & black waste disposal, and a small, immaculate toilet and shower block. Available for Ferry passengers, but also serves those in need of social housing who have acquired a M/home in the meantime. The local Council saves Housing Benefit etc, uses land that would remain unused, and for a modest investment [it would need to provide toilet & water facilities for the Council Workers using the bottom of the site anyway], has dealt with the 'illegal habitation' issue cost effectively and compassionately. The site is at St Pierre de Benouville, Dieppe and is listed on the Search App

Steve

Yeah, but that European approach requires brains and a joined up attitude to social/civic policy.

And yes, it does stray into the "p" area. There's not much in our lives that doesn't. Anyone who thinks otherwise lives in cloud cuckoo land

 

[Fisherman]

I'm sure there are places we all covet where we go for a drive , park up , have a couple of pints , food and stay the night . No need for any facilities. No idea if this applies to Burntisland or not but we are in grave danger of losing all of those places , or pay £10 for the privilege of parking overnight .
Cars in same carpark paying nothing for parking overnight
This is something that was vociferously opposed not very long ago by a few , myself included .

It was and sadly it is being abused, hence this change.

I do appreciate your POV.

Sadly I see no choice in these circumstances, Burntisland is a very popular destination, and when you look at the photograph taken on Saturday in October, you have to wonder what it would be like in June.
If they erected barriers no one would have access, and the choice of staying there or moving elsewhere would be removed from us. Also chemical waste facilities will be available which they are not at present.

Also cars do pay in FCCT carparks if they stay for more than 2 hours, and we have the same option. And some car parks are £5, whilst others remain free.
In Scotland there are plenty of places were you can stay the night for free, or pay nominal car parking charges which apply to all vehicles.