gas lockers

[n brown]

some do it one way,some do it another,then someone reads something on t'internet and passes it on as gospel ! common sense and experience tells me that if a bottle exploded,lining it with metal just makes for more shrapnel, in case of a fire your detector [electronic or nasal ]will let you know. as Mark says,all bottles seep,but i once had a pipe break so i always put a 40mm dropout hole in the floor ,but there's no law says you have to. i personally wouldn't ask the insurance about it,they know it's a camper with gas in it- the bottle cupboard could be sealed and a joint fail ouutside it and dump the gas. as for gas safe engineers,i don't think many are qualified to test a camper

 

[Deleted member 22077]

There is a British Standard Euro Norm dictating requirements, however, I don't think it is mandatory if it is for personal rather (only commercial use - rental or if you are building professionally). That said, I think you'd need a good reason from a personal safety point of view in ignoring it. Also, insurance might kick off if you didn't follow best-practice (legal obligation or no).

The Euro-Norm for this is BS EN 1949: 2011 + A1 2013 "Specification for the installation of LPG systems for habitation purposes in leisure accommodation vehicles and accommodation purposes in other vehicles".

From memory (and I have the memory of a fish) there is no stipulation of material, but it needs to be sealed from the habitation area to prevent gas ingress - so you need something like a contained locker with a closing door and a 50mm upstand within the locker (to effectively allow leaking gas to pool) and a drop-out hole (100cm2 rings a bell - but I think it can be smaller if you have smaller cylinder capacity) to allow the gas to vent outside. The cylinders need to have upper and lower fixings that don't need tools and the regulators/vent/connections should not be obstructed by the cylinders.

We ended up going for underslung tanks so I never bottomed out all of the requirements, but they were all fairly common sense type things

In terms of locating an engineer I found the gas-safe site next to useless, but this one proved a lot more useful...

http://www.mobilecaravanengineers.co.uk/find-an-engineer/

 

[John H]

All good advice, no doubt, but I come back to the insurance question. Will her insurance still be valid if the work isn't either done by or inspected by a qualified person? It seems to me that it is not good enough just to do the work properly but you have to ensure that nothing you do invalidates the insurance. I suspect that there are very many people out there who are paying out insurance premiums on vehicles without realising that something they have done has invalidated that insurance.

 

[Deleted member 22077]

All good advice, no doubt, but I come back to the insurance question. Will her insurance still be valid if the work isn't either done by or inspected by a qualified person? It seems to me that it is not good enough just to do the work properly but you have to ensure that nothing you do invalidates the insurance. I suspect that there are very many people out there who are paying out insurance premiums on vehicles without realising that something they have done has invalidated that insurance.

Best answer - if unsure ask the insurer.

I've done it loads when building mine.

Half the time they can't give anything concrete, but you get them to put it in an email and you're covered (at least for that underwriter).


I think the requirements, in terms of qualifications of installers for personal use (ie - not commercial) is that they are 'competent', which is somewhat vague. However, if you've installed something in line with best practice then they can't really say much.

Plus, i've seen work by trained gas/electric installers that left my breathless. So, i'd rather do things myself and then on occasion (gas being one) have it verified by a specialist.

 

[Channa]

It is quite simple, install your system to EN1949. That includes correct pipe sizing allowing for elbows and joints and supports, drop holes under appliances and correct upper and lower ventilation in the habitation area. If the system is fitted to EN1949 then an insurance argument becomes null and void because you have fitted to current standard.

Snowbirds mentions dormabiles from the 70.s ..Odds are if I gas checked it, no doubt I would issue NCS ( not conforming to standards which is not a fail). However on a new installation it needs to be to current standards. In other words what is a NCS on an older vehicle would fail on a new installation.

To give an example, a 28 mbar regulator is NCS. but acceptable on a 70's dormible because it was the thing in the 70's a new installation should have a 30 mbar reg ( after 2002) So would fail. You have to conform to the current standard.

One further point, You may not choose to go exactly to the EN1949 standard, and Insurers etc may be non the wiser, however should you sell, you have a liability (previous posts omit this small technicality )

Channa

 

[campervanannie]

cooker sorted

My cooker is sorted I went to a my specialist in Bradford and they fitted a copper pipe with the corecty pipe conecter on the end and the copper pipe is clipped to the woodwork and it has been pressure tested so all that is OK so I will take on board what the majority say that it should be in a cupboard fastened so it cannot wobble about and then put a hole in the floor that seems sensible as I did not know gas was heavier than air so as Mr B says it will drop out of the hole if I have a leak. As for the insurance they are aware that I am converting it myself they have sent me a declaration sheet that I take to a local garage and they inspect the van and fill in the declaration sheet and I send it off . It's a garage I have used for 35 years and they have done quite a few of these inspections for others then see what happens but Thankyou all for your input and advice.

 

[John H]

I don't understand that you cannot see that insurance companies can and do use any excuse to avoid payment. YES the insurance company could very well dodge liability under those circumstances , so why play into their hands?

And the second part of your post that I have highlighted sums up my point entirely - it is important to check with the insurance company to see whether or not they would insist on a qualified person installing the system. Maybe they would; maybe they wouldn't but a sensible person should check to see what conditions, if any, are imposed by their insurers. How could you possibly object to that advice?

 

[John H]

My cooker is sorted I went to a my specialist in Bradford and they fitted a copper pipe with the corecty pipe conecter on the end and the copper pipe is clipped to the woodwork and it has been pressure tested so all that is OK so I will take on board what the majority say that it should be in a cupboard fastened so it cannot wobble about and then put a hole in the floor that seems sensible as I did not know gas was heavier than air so as Mr B says it will drop out of the hole if I have a leak. As for the insurance they are aware that I am converting it myself they have sent me a declaration sheet that I take to a local garage and they inspect the van and fill in the declaration sheet and I send it off . It's a garage I have used for 35 years and they have done quite a few of these inspections for others then see what happens but Thankyou all for your input and advice.

Glad it is going well - and glad to see that you followed a very sensible course of action with your insurers. All the best for the future.

 

[Channa]

My cooker is sorted I went to a my specialist in Bradford and they fitted a copper pipe with the corecty pipe conecter on the end and the copper pipe is clipped to the woodwork and it has been pressure tested so all that is OK so I will take on board what the majority say that it should be in a cupboard fastened so it cannot wobble about and then put a hole in the floor that seems sensible as I did not know gas was heavier than air so as Mr B says it will drop out of the hole if I have a leak. As for the insurance they are aware that I am converting it myself they have sent me a declaration sheet that I take to a local garage and they inspect the van and fill in the declaration sheet and I send it off . It's a garage I have used for 35 years and they have done quite a few of these inspections for others then see what happens but Thankyou all for your input and advice.

I guess then your "specialist" are ACS registered by gas safe? you need to ask that question ..leisure accomodation vehicle accredited ? And the pipes clipped to the woodwork are the correct distances ? Pressure test is standard to 50 mbar with air! it seems correct lower drop outs? ...What else are you adding to the van that operates off gas? could make a difference to pipe sizing .Have you adequately established ventilation requirements ? Upper Ventilation, lower ventilation ..or double higher if lower is restricted ? Is your specialist garage working to EN1949 ?

A gas system should accomodate the full picture not bit by bit.

Sorry if I sound a twat, I promise not my intention at all, I just see some pretty horrendous efforts at lpg installations,And in my own way trying to help you. But better me being awkward and questioning than an insurer in the event of a claim ( non gas related too !!).

FWIW and a check of my profile I am a qualified LPG gas Engineer albeit nowadays I get more involved with Aircon but my LPG quals are still valid re my observations ...Good luck with the conversion, great to work your own template ( I love Fulltimers ex prison truck )

Channa

 

[Fazerloz]

My old Renault Master had gaps that big in the door seals at the bottom it didn't need a gas drop out . :cheers: :have fun:

 

[maxi77]

All good advice, no doubt, but I come back to the insurance question. Will her insurance still be valid if the work isn't either done by or inspected by a qualified person? It seems to me that it is not good enough just to do the work properly but you have to ensure that nothing you do invalidates the insurance. I suspect that there are very many people out there who are paying out insurance premiums on vehicles without realising that something they have done has invalidated that insurance.

In the last resort it is not the insurance company that decides but a court of law and they tend to apply common sense in these areas so being able to demonstrate the application of good practice and common sense will tend to trump an insurance company jobsworth.

 

[campervanannie]

I guess then your "specialist" are ACS registered by gas safe? you need to ask that question ..leisure accomodation vehicle accredited ? And the pipes clipped to the woodwork are the correct distances ? Pressure test is standard to 50 mbar with air! it seems correct lower drop outs? ...What else are you adding to the van that operates off gas? could make a difference to pipe sizing .Have you adequately established ventilation requirements ? Upper Ventilation, lower ventilation ..or double higher if lower is restricted ? Is your specialist garage working to EN1949 ?

A gas system should accomodate the full picture not bit by bit.

Sorry if I sound a twat, I promise not my intention at all, I just see some pretty horrendous efforts at lpg installations,And in my own way trying to help you. But better me being awkward and questioning than an insurer in the event of a claim ( non gas related too !!).

FWIW and a check of my profile I am a qualified LPG gas Engineer albeit nowadays I get more involved with Aircon but my LPG quals are still valid re my observations ...Good luck with the conversion, great to work your own template ( I love Fulltimers ex prison truck )

Channa

Yes the guy is acredited it was Dick Lane motorhomes that did the pipe for the gas cooker and your not being a twat we have never done anything like this our last 6 mh/campers were all coach built or professional convertions so all advice is gratefully accepted.

 

[John H]

In the last resort it is not the insurance company that decides but a court of law and they tend to apply common sense in these areas so being able to demonstrate the application of good practice and common sense will tend to trump an insurance company jobsworth.

Correct - and I am married to a retired lawyer so maybe I should withdraw my previous advice! The point is, however, recourse to the law is a very expensive business - especially since there is no guarantee that you would win. Better to close down as many loopholes as possible as early as possible in my opinion.

 

[John H]

Exactly - and what I was saying was that any sensible person would check the contract first - and if it was not clear (and as you well know, some clauses are written so as to deliberately not be instantly clear to the reader!) then it should be checked with the company. But all this is academic now, since campervanannie seems to have already taken the sensible path.

 

[n brown]

My cooker is sorted I went to a my specialist in Bradford and they fitted a copper pipe with the corecty pipe conecter on the end and the copper pipe is clipped to the woodwork and it has been pressure tested so all that is OK so I will take on board what the majority say that it should be in a cupboard fastened so it cannot wobble about and then put a hole in the floor that seems sensible as I did not know gas was heavier than air so as Mr B says it will drop out of the hole if I have a leak. As for the insurance they are aware that I am converting it myself they have sent me a declaration sheet that I take to a local garage and they inspect the van and fill in the declaration sheet and I send it off . It's a garage I have used for 35 years and they have done quite a few of these inspections for others then see what happens but Thankyou all for your input and advice.

Annie i love to see forms,any chance you could copy or photo the declaration sheet ? always helpful to see the sort of things a garage could check ta la

 

[campervanannie]

yes Mr B

Annie i love to see forms,any chance you could copy or photo the declaration sheet ? always helpful to see the sort of things a garage could check ta la

Yes I will get him indoors to photo copy it at work buy I will take a picture and get it uploaded tommorrow.

 

[Channa]

FWIW I know of Dick Lane motor company and has Annie suggests been at it for years, so they should know the crack.

Annie you were near my old haunt "The Parry" on Sticker Lane , small world. I wa slandlord there for a while.

Channa

 

[campervanannie]

FWIW I know of Dick Lane motor company and has Annie suggests been at it for years, so they should know the crack.

Annie you were near my old haunt "The Parry" on Sticker Lane , small world. I wa slandlord there for a while.

Channa

I have fallen out of there and the sticklers arms many times in my youth. I only live up in Wibsey .

 

[Channa]

I have fallen out of there and the sticklers arms many times in my youth. I only live up in Wibsey .

Stickler has gone, it was built to replace Mawsons? (spelling) next to the old Lucas place. The Stickler today is the Three Singhs an Indian restaurant and a good one at that. There are only three Indian restaurants in Bradford I am told that is one of them ..( the rest Pakastani, Kashmiri Benghal/ Bangladesh and Mogul ) I bet you remember the Prince Arthur ?

I only lived up there 12 months or so, but despite the rep, it wasnt that bad, the Gypsies on Bowling Back Lane, I had a good rapport with an elder ( he actually loved my wild camping adventures) and never had an ounce of trouble.

Wibsey ?// eh ??? a seperate thread lol

Channa

 

[RoaminRog]

Annie, have you considered fitting an underslung 'gas it' tank, (not a bottle) it is amazing how much cash can be saved by filling up on the fore-court and you would recoup the initial outlay very quickly indeed! Also of course you wouldn't have to worry about gas locker regulations and possibly have more storage room available. See you at Rutland!

Regards Rog