Electric vehicles

[Heppy]

Can't say I noticed before but had my Hyundai serviced on Tuesday, reading the bump they give you afterwards seems you get full breakdown/recovery including home start for 12 months when they do a service. I can't say how much the service would cost as its a motability vehicle but thought that was quite good for normal owners

I get with my electric Vauxhall with each service.

Can't say I noticed before but had my Hyundai serviced on Tuesday, reading the bump they give you afterwards seems you get full breakdown/recovery including home start for 12 months when they do a service. I can't say how much the service would cost as its a motability vehicle but thought that was quite good for normal owners

Vauxhall give 12 months full RAC cover each service with my EV

 

[trevskoda]

Vauxhall give 12 months full RAC cover each service with my EV

Nothing to service on a ev, brake pads/shoes is about it, big con.

 

[r4dent]

Nothing to service on a ev, brake pads/shoes is about it, big con.

When I got my Lexus EV the 12v battery (not the traction battery!) went flat twice in the first two weeks.
The RAC man "jump started" it on both occasions and on his advice I charged it using a 12v charger. Never happened since.

 

[colinm]

When I got my Lexus EV the 12v battery (not the traction battery!) went flat twice in the first two weeks.
The RAC man "jump started" it on both occasions and on his advice I charged it using a 12v charger. Never happened since.

It's a problem which several BEV's have, seems odd that you have a big Lithium battery and are let down by a LA battery going flat, I think it's all to do with software issues and how BEV's are used in the real world, meanwhile I think the best idea would be to carry a Lithium booster pack.

 

[gasgas]

The only thing they ever made which was good was the transit banana engine, folk ranted on about the old x flow engines, 1600cc made 70 bhp, my old soda 1300cc made 68bhp and went round the clock 3 times, lucky if i got 40th on a cross flow before exploading big time,total junk.

Yaaay! I've got an Autosleeper on a Transit with a banana engine. I'll sleep soundly tonight. . . . .
But it does lose a race against a double decker bus once it gets to an uphill slight incline. I have had new injectors and fuel pump and it is an automatic which I gues is farily rare.

 

[trevskoda]

Yaaay! I've got an Autosleeper on a Transit with a banana engine. I'll sleep soundly tonight. . . . .
But it does lose a race against a double decker bus once it gets to an uphill slight incline. I have had new injectors and fuel pump and it is an automatic which I gues is farily rare.

Developed from the old york engine.

 

[gasgas]

I agree, but the anti's will keep saying about EV fires when it's known that the likelihood is no more than a ICE, and two of the worse carpark fires in the UK where from ICE vehicles. Under present legislation there will in all likelihood come a time when a major carpark fire is caused by an EV, but that's just the nature of vehicles, they will go wrong and will catch fire, no matter how they are powered, and if they are stored next to each other it is is difficult to extinguish the fire no matter how they are powered.

See

for an intelligent commentary on the melting of the car ferry Freemantle Highway which had reportedly got 500 EVs on board. One month after the ship was towed into harbour they were unloading a Mercedes EV which had already burnt out, and it caught fire again and they dunked it into a skip and filled it with water. Even submersing a burning EV in water won't put the fire out because it generates its own oxygen when it burns.
When one campervan announced its EV powered conversion I had visions of mummy and daddy and kiddies sound asleep one night when the battery decided to spontaneously combust. The smoke and gases are toxic beyond belief.

 

[gasgas]

Developed from the old york engine.

I think I am right in saying that was designed before some moron who should have been incinerated at birth decided to run a rubber belt in the crankcase oil?

 

[trevskoda]

I think I am right in saying that was designed before some moron who should have been incinerated at birth decided to run a rubber belt in the crankcase oil?

Yes, i always prefair a pushrod engine, hence i loved and worked on skoda engines.

 

[colinm]

See

for an intelligent commentary on the melting of the car ferry Freemantle Highway which had reportedly got 500 EVs on board. One month after the ship was towed into harbour they were unloading a Mercedes EV which had already burnt out, and it caught fire again and they dunked it into a skip and filled it with water. Even submersing a burning EV in water won't put the fire out because it generates its own oxygen when it burns.
When one campervan announced its EV powered conversion I had visions of mummy and daddy and kiddies sound asleep one night when the battery decided to spontaneously combust. The smoke and gases are toxic beyond belief.

The vast majority of ICE cars on that ferry where melted to blobs, the vast majority of EV's survived, so good you posted this so the record could be put straight.
BTW just to correct you, the Merc showed no signs of being 'burnt out' it was heavily scorched and the workers decided to dump it into a tank of water which appears to have shorted out the battery causing it to dump it's energy, they then pulled a fire blanket over it.
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/09/f...t=But one of the EVs,is moved through the air.

 

[GeoffL]

I never offered an opinion nor checked online Geoff, merely expressed what I witnessed over 31 years. I can assure you I am not lying, I witnessed almost brand new cars involved in fires for the reasons I gave. But as I indicated most were between 6-8 years of age. I am not claiming that what I experienced personally is representative of any surveys carried out and posted online. But I did take a look at the thread, and it seems to underline much of what I posted.

I didn't question your personal experience. However, I did check both UK and US statistics before posting and the overwhelming majority of car fires (no matter what type of propulsion) that were not caused by arson were in cars over ten years old and the risk of fire increases with age.

Most of the new cars would probably have been repairable and did not suffer catastrophic damage. Also most car fires I attended were the result of theft and deliberately set on fire.

I suspect the number of arson cases you dealt with might well have skewed your perception. That said, it is true that a significant proportion, if not the majority, of fires in newer vehicles (again, all propulsion types) are caused by faulty/damaged electrics.

 

[GeoffL]

It's a problem which several BEV's have, seems odd that you have a big Lithium battery and are let down by a LA battery going flat, I think it's all to do with software issues and how BEV's are used in the real world, meanwhile I think the best idea would be to carry a Lithium booster pack.

The issue is that the charging system shuts down as soon as the BMS 'considers' the traction battery to be fully charged and 'float charging' of the 12v lead/acid auxiliary battery stops in consequence. Now lithium traction batteries self-discharge at a much lower rate than lead/acid, which lets the lead/acid auxiliary battery discharge while the traction battery remain at full state of charge -- even if left plugged in. This isn't an issue if the car is driven regularly because the auxiliary battery gets topped up while driving and also while the car is being recharged. However, it becomes an issue if the car is left unused for an extended time (as James May found out when lockdown was lifted!)
'They' could program the system to periodically top up the auxiliary battery. However, that would mean unattended deisolation of the traction battery, with an increased risk... That said, given the cost of these cars, it seems a better idea for the auxiliary battery to also be lithium?
Re. Lithium booster packs (e.g. Noco), that seems a good idea. However, as James May found out, it's little use if you can't even unlock the car and open the doors / gain access to the lead/acid battery (or at least 'jump start' terminals). ISTR he had to dismantle half the front end of his Tesla to be able to access the auxiliary battery! Perhaps a better idea, if possible, is to take the car for a short (say, 20 minute) drive once a week or so to ensure the auxiliary battery remains viable?

 

[colinm]

The issue is that the charging system shuts down as soon as the BMS 'considers' the traction battery to be fully charged and 'float charging' of the 12v lead/acid auxiliary battery stops in consequence. Now lithium traction batteries self-discharge at a much lower rate than lead/acid, which lets the lead/acid auxiliary battery discharge while the traction battery remain at full state of charge -- even if left plugged in. This isn't an issue if the car is driven regularly because the auxiliary battery gets topped up while driving and also while the car is being recharged. However, it becomes an issue if the car is left unused for an extended time (as James May found out when lockdown was lifted!)
'They' could program the system to periodically top up the auxiliary battery. However, that would mean unattended deisolation of the traction battery, with an increased risk... That said, given the cost of these cars, it seems a better idea for the auxiliary battery to also be lithium?
Re. Lithium booster packs (e.g. Noco), that seems a good idea. However, as James May found out, it's little use if you can't even unlock the car and open the doors / gain access to the lead/acid battery (or at least 'jump start' terminals). ISTR he had to dismantle half the front end of his Tesla to be able to access the auxiliary battery! Perhaps a better idea, if possible, is to take the car for a short (say, 20 minute) drive once a week or so to ensure the auxiliary battery remains viable?

Actually that's just one reason, also the LA battery can become flat on some models if the traction battery is low(say down to 20miles range) and it decides to 'conserve' power in the traction battery.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

This has brought a question up for me.

In April, we will be away for 6-8 weeks at least. Does anyone know how both of the hybrids' batteries will fair during that time?

 

[Boris7]

Shouldn’t be an issue Kev.

 

[Tonard]

Jaguar will buy back 3000 2019 I-Pace models due to fire risk

https://insideevs.com/news/742670/jaguar-buying-back-ipace-fire/#:~:text=Jaguar%20will%20reportedly%20buy%20back,seems%20they%20weren't%20enough.

 

[Fisherman]

I didn't question your personal experience. However, I did check both UK and US statistics before posting and the overwhelming majority of car fires (no matter what type of propulsion) that were not caused by arson were in cars over ten years old and the risk of fire increases with age.


I suspect the number of arson cases you dealt with might well have skewed your perception. That said, it is true that a significant proportion, if not the majority, of fires in newer vehicles (again, all propulsion types) are caused by faulty/damaged electrics.

Thank you Geoff, a balanced and a fair reply, and as I retired 20 years ago this month, my memory may well be skewed.
I just feel that this topic seems to stimulate totally polarised views, which is not helpful.
The link you kindly posted does confirm what you say, and it also states that less than one percent of vehicle fires involve EVs. But you are correct in stating that EV fires involving the traction batteries are more difficult to extinguish, but from what I read on the fire service forum most EV fires don’t involve the traction batteries, such fires are extremely rare. As I stated there are firefighters with 15 years service who have never attended an EV fire. When a EV fire does occur it’s reported in the media, when the same occurs in an ice vehicle it’s rarely reported.
But take it from me, and I am putting a positive spin on ICE vehicles here, fuel tanks very rarely rupture, they are actually quite remarkable things, and as I stated previously throughout my service I was surprised at how rarely they did rupture.

 

[Drover]

I think my question has been answered. Thanks to all
As for the vw buzz ,I got told there ain't enough room for a make up bag even though its cute, so that would be a no then. perhaps a 12 mtr RV would be a better option.
As for ICE fuel tanks. I have welded both in the past. A diesel one that split and after rubbing a hard bar of soap into the split to get home. Fill tank with diesel and weld the split up...
Petrol one on the other hand still had fumes in it after a hour on the steam cleaner ,so put it behind garage door and throw some fire at it..it soon goes bang then your good to weld...
ps (don't fill this one with petrol)
It's a long story on why with both tanks so I won't bore you with it..

 

[colinm]

As for the vw buzz ,I got told there ain't enough room for a make up bag even though its cute, so that would be a no then.
.

What are you comparing it to? It can be had up to a 7 seater, and is very spacious compared to a car, however compared to a Transporter it has less room.

 

[JQB]

That suffers from a statistical error know as "right censoring". Basically, the chance of a vehicle fire (any vehicle) increases with vehicle age with the overwhelming majority of fires in ICEVs occurring in vehicles over ten years old and a majority are over 15 years old. I just checked Autotrader to find only 48 EVs over ten years old compared to over 80,000 ICEVs. When it comes to the fifteen year point, 31,000 ICEVs are listed compared to just 1 EV. Simply put, the majority of EVs just aren't old enough to be statistically at risk -- yet!

An EV battery fire is also far worse than an ICEV fire. The battery fire is much, much harder to extinguish and liable to reignite hours, days and sometimes many weeks after the initial fire. Further, Li-ion batteries suffer from 'dendrites', which are internal filaments that grow inside each cell as the battery is charged and eventually cause internal short circuits. If the cell is at a low state of charge when this occurs, the cell just goes 'dead'. However, if it happens at a high state of charge, the resulting short circuit can cause the cell to overheat and might even cause thermal runaway. Note that this is a characteristic of the battery technology and only applies to Li-ion and not to any technology that might replace it -- although currently almost all EVs use Li-ion.

For me, more disturbing is the tendency for modern cars to auto-lock after driving a short distance and for the internal door handles to be mechanically disconnected from the physical locks. This, with electric windows, means that passengers are trapped in the event of power loss -- and it's something in older cars also. I was horrified to discover that the rear door handles on my 2009 Qashqai were ineffective without 12v -- a fault in the entertainment system completely discharged the battery and the only door I could open was the driver's. I now have a glass breaker in the glove box! This doesn't only affect EVs, but it seems to be a major reason why people could not escape and so have been killed in EV fires.

People have died in tesla fires because upon and electrical failure there is no internal door handle to exit the car. Some tripe about having to pull off a door card and pull a cable or some such nonsense from tesla, try that in the dark in a car full of heat and smoke. Think i'll stick to morris minors.