DVLA change to van with windows

Kontiki

Kontiki

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I'm about to pick up a VW camper, from what I understand it's very difficult to get it changed now to motorhome. What they seem to do is change it from Van to Van with windows, from my understanding it can make a difference to the speed limit I can drive on some roads. My question is how do I change it? Can only find how to change it to motorhome on DVLA site. Thevan has been proffesionally converted but can't be classed as motorhome as it doesn't have exterior graphics (I prefer it without).
 
My understanding is if it's a MH, you get the higher speed limit on dual carriageways even when body type is van with windows. Which probably means appealing, still a PIA.

If it's a VW Transporter I don't think you'll get it registered as a MH, Could be wrong though. It also needs a high roof, as pop tops not included.

Even a registered MH has goods vehicle speed limits if used to carry goods for sale, used as a workshop or used for storage. Storing what exactly I don't know.
 
Kontiki said:
I'm about to pick up a VW camper, from what I understand it's very difficult to get it changed now to motorhome. What they seem to do is change it from Van to Van with windows, from my understanding it can make a difference to the speed limit I can drive on some roads. My question is how do I change it? Can only find how to change it to motorhome on DVLA site. Thevan has been proffesionally converted but can't be classed as motorhome as it doesn't have exterior graphics (I prefer it without).
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Another requirement now is a high roof and a pop-top won't cut it.
 
Loads of anecdotal evidence on the 'net where people have been charged "commercial vehicle" tolls when their van is a camper and would have attracted a lower toll if only the V5 said "motor caravan". Also, at least one has ended up with a parking ticket for parking their 'van with windows' in a 'motorhomes only' parking bay and failed at appeal even with photos of the interior. I suspect the issue with speed cameras also exists. The problem is that all these people rely on DVLA's records -- which reflect how the vehicle appears not what it actually is...
 
When our van was rejected as a "motor caravan" ( @Kontiki this is the only category...not motor Home or campervan) we had the rejection letter from DVLA which specifically said that the category was just the exterior look of the vehicle and, if it was used as a motor caravan, the speed limits and insurance would be relating to that category. Assumed this means if it confirmed to the interior specs ...I have kept this letter, in case there are any disputes/ speeding issues. We do have to pay as a van on toll roads UK as they take that it is a reduction only if V5 says motorcaravan. I am sure someone will contest it at some time! The V5 category has only affected our insurance with Saga who wouldn't quote if V5 had not been changed...no problem with anyone else. Couldn't be asked to put an unwanted awning, decals and extra windows on the van and possibly still have it rejected.
 
I sent the department of transport an Email concerning my van with windows and 6 seats as I bought from my dealer asking about the speed limits and here is the reply that I got.

John.

Dear Mr Green



Thank you for your email below to the Department, regarding the maximum speed limits for your VW Transporter. Please note that I am unable to give legal advice, however I can point you to the relevant legislation.



I appreciate that it can be difficult to decide which category a vehicle falls into. The legislation applicable is the Road Traffic Regulation Act (RTRA) 1984 Schedule 6 which lists vehicle types which are restricted to speeds below the national speed limits. This may be useful to you: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedules.



Where there are windows, seats and seat belts behind the driver’s seat our understanding is that the enforcement authorities will assume that the vehicle is primarily used for carrying passengers rather than goods. A passenger vehicle is defined in the Road Vehicles Construction and Use regulations as a vehicle, “constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects”: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/made.



As you will see in the RTRA, passenger vehicles / motor caravans / dual-purpose vehicles (not drawing a trailer), with an unladen weight exceeding 3.05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers, would be restricted to 70mph on a motorway, 60mph on a dual carriageway and 50mph on a single carriageway. Otherwise, a passenger vehicle with e.g. no more than 8 passenger seats can travel at the same speed as a car.



Kind regards,



Helen



Helen Grech
Senior Policy Advisor, Freight Regulation: Social & Safety Policy
Great Minster House 33 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 4DR
 
Yep, a pop top roof won’t qualify a panel van as eligible for change to motor caravan. A hi top will make it qualify, as long as it fits all the other criteria.
 
Neckender said:
I sent the department of transport an Email concerning my van with windows and 6 seats as I bought from my dealer asking about the speed limits and here is the reply that I got.

John.

Dear Mr Green



Thank you for your email below to the Department, regarding the maximum speed limits for your VW Transporter. Please note that I am unable to give legal advice, however I can point you to the relevant legislation.



I appreciate that it can be difficult to decide which category a vehicle falls into. The legislation applicable is the Road Traffic Regulation Act (RTRA) 1984 Schedule 6 which lists vehicle types which are restricted to speeds below the national speed limits. This may be useful to you: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedules.



Where there are windows, seats and seat belts behind the driver’s seat our understanding is that the enforcement authorities will assume that the vehicle is primarily used for carrying passengers rather than goods. A passenger vehicle is defined in the Road Vehicles Construction and Use regulations as a vehicle, “constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects”: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/made.



As you will see in the RTRA, passenger vehicles / motor caravans / dual-purpose vehicles (not drawing a trailer), with an unladen weight exceeding 3.05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers, would be restricted to 70mph on a motorway, 60mph on a dual carriageway and 50mph on a single carriageway. Otherwise, a passenger vehicle with e.g. no more than 8 passenger seats can travel at the same speed as a car.



Kind regards,



Helen



Helen Grech
Senior Policy Advisor, Freight Regulation: Social & Safety Policy
Great Minster House 33 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 4DR
Click to expand...
Further to that, the referenced Construction and Use Regulations refer to the "Type Approval (Great Britain) Regulations" para 2(2), which defines a "motor caravan" thus:

“motor caravan” means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users;

From this, it would appear that DVLA are being perverse at the very least since (other than habitation windows) it doesn't matter what the van looks like, it's the presence of permanently installed bed, table, seating, sink etc. that makes it a "motor caravan". However, I guess it would take someone with the money to fund a very expensive court case to prove the point!
 
GeoffL said:
Further to that, the referenced Construction and Use Regulations refer to the "Type Approval (Great Britain) Regulations" para 2(2), which defines a "motor caravan" thus:

“motor caravan” means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users;

From this, it would appear that DVLA are being perverse at the very least since (other than habitation windows) it doesn't matter what the van looks like, it's the presence of permanently installed bed, table, seating, sink etc. that makes it a "motor caravan". However, I guess it would take someone with the money to fund a very expensive court case to prove the point!
Click to expand...
You could start a petition on 38 deg to get signatures for it to be looked into at gov level house of commons.
 
The main issue is that people are barking up the wrong tree.

The speed limits applicable are based on what the vehicle is being used for.

The body type is about what it looks like. Not what it's used for

What you pay at a toll booth or as an insurance premium is a commercial decision.

If you have a stealth camper, designed to look like a van or a minibus, it has a body type of van or van with windows, as it should

I'm not sure how I'd define the boundary between van with windows and motor caravan, but whatever the division is, it will offend someone

I have a copy of an email from someone at DFT about this. They are basically saying nothing changed in the law, but the definition of what looked like a motor caravan was more tightly interpreted

There are more worthwhile things to get upset about.
 
You need to check D5 on the log book first because if the vehicle is not on the list you have no chance of getting it listed as a motorcaravan
Screenshot_20230301-132224_Chrome.jpg
 
If you comply with all that they require but let down with no decals put decals on the remove them.

Maybe club together and have a magnetic set made up for use by forum members, I dare say you could even get Sietz window sets made up.

Would/could they downgrade you?
 
Panel vans

I park in minibus coach bays. As I have a van with full silver tinted widows and never pay.at services Ha ha and park in No motor homes over night bays, also over look the sea between 8am - 6pm. But only do 60mph as its better on fule.
Im a cheap dyslexic , it there words.

As above
So seat belts behind drivers seat =max speed uk A roads, 70mph = car or minibus. Not goods

A panel van goods = max speed 60mph

A van with widows : no seat belts behind drivers seat ? What is the definition needed to pass for log book change !

What information do DVLA need to change this on log book ? To van with windos as we send it in for motohomes
and is it 70mph on A roads ? and toll cost reduction as motohomes, minibuses

Did you sign the sevay / petition ? On digital ! as it ended.
 
GeoffL said:
Further to that, the referenced Construction and Use Regulations refer to the "Type Approval (Great Britain) Regulations" para 2(2), which defines a "motor caravan" thus:

“motor caravan” means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users;

From this, it would appear that DVLA are being perverse at the very least since (other than habitation windows) it doesn't matter what the van looks like, it's the presence of permanently installed bed, table, seating, sink etc. that makes it a "motor caravan". However, I guess it would take someone with the money to fund a very expensive court case to prove the point!
Click to expand...

The people who may have lost out the most possible with the way the DVLA have moved the goalposts so massively are the smaller businesses who do camper conversions for a living. I am pretty sure they will be in the same boat as self-builders regarding V5C classifications. I would think a lot of THEIR customers are expecting a "Motor Caravan" rather than a "Van with Windows" when they hand over the £50k+ for their lovely new camper.

I don't know if there is some 'Campervan Converters Trade Association', but if there was, that is maybe the type of organisation that could, with the help of the registration fees from Conversion Companies, challenge this ruling.


TBH, although the last conversion I did I got reclassifed to a Motor Caravan without any hassles (and it must have been just prior to the change in stance as Zebra Stripes do not shout out "motor home" to most folk :D ), I would not be that worried if I did another and it was refused. As far as converting vans to campers in all but name, the UK is possibly the most lax amongst major European Countries in what you can do. Try doing what you can do here to a van in France, Spain or Italy and see how your pride and joy will probably fail their version of the MOT as it is not how it came out the factory.
When it comes to poking the bear, be careful what you wish for! (to mix a couple of metaphors)
 
wildebus said:
The people who may have lost out the most possible with the way the DVLA have moved the goalposts so massively are the smaller businesses who do camper conversions for a living. I am pretty sure they will be in the same boat as self-builders regarding V5C classifications. I would think a lot of THEIR customers are expecting a "Motor Caravan" rather than a "Van with Windows" when they hand over the £50k+ for their lovely new camper.

I don't know if there is some 'Campervan Converters Trade Association', but if there was, that is maybe the type of organisation that could, with the help of the registration fees from Conversion Companies, challenge this ruling.
[...]
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AIUI, even VW 'fall foul' for the new DVLA rules as their "California" camper is classed as an "MPV" by DVLA (I suspect because of the pop top). Now this is a "motor caravan" built as such from the start by the same people who built the chassis -- so it's even more "as original" than (say) Westfalia or Devon conversions!

There's some suggestion on the VW California Club site that the shenanigans started because of some third party converters buying base commercial vehicles for less than (then) £40k and avoiding 'luxury car tax' by registering them as N1 vehicles prior to conversion and then selling for the market value (i.e. well over £40k). Note this is just hearsay, but it does seem the sort of thing that a greedy government might do out of spite?! (clicky link to VWCalClub thread).
 
I agree with Wildebus regarding "poking the bear". We managed to get our bus reclassified as motor caravan and it was probably one of the last ones to get it before DVLA spat out its dummy.
I have seen horror stories posted on another forum, that vehicles (mainly converted VDubs) that go north into Europe, get pulled because the vehicle is no longer the same as it was when it left the manufacturers.:rolleyes:
 
GeoffL said:
AIUI, even VW 'fall foul' for the new DVLA rules as their "California" camper is classed as an "MPV" by DVLA (I suspect because of the pop top). Now this is a "motor caravan" built as such from the start by the same people who built the chassis -- so it's even more "as original" than (say) Westfalia or Devon conversions!

There's some suggestion on the VW California Club site that the shenanigans started because of some third party converters buying base commercial vehicles for less than (then) £40k and avoiding 'luxury car tax' by registering them as N1 vehicles prior to conversion and then selling for the market value (i.e. well over £40k). Note this is just hearsay, but it does seem the sort of thing that a greedy government might do out of spite?! (clicky link to VWCalClub thread).
Click to expand...



Yup, but the VW being an "MPV" is actually better than being a "Motor Caravan" in many ways. (When I converted a Shuttle (aka Caravelle) Transporter, I specifically left it as an MPV instead of reclassifying it for that specific reason :) )

I doubt that story promoted by the Caliclub personally.
 
I accept that its not going to be classified as a motorcaravan, sorted abouit van with windows the dealer is going to get it done when we get the V5. Did find a couple of manufacturers/converters who are approved to be able to get the type changed to motorcaravan. In the past I've converted a couple of vans to campers & not had too much trouble getting them changed, they were only concerned what the inside was like & it had windows.
Thanks for the replies.
 
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