Deleted member 5816
Guest
it’s set like that to save dragging the debris from the bottom of the tank and more importantly to leave fuel for the engine.
Alf
Alf
Diesel Heater
- Thread starter Moonraker 2
- Start date
Fazerloz
Full Member
- Posts
- 8,476
- Likes
- 16,179
You live and learn. I haven't come across this one before . At roughly £70 for a D2 cheaper than I would have thought.
From Eber manual.
The heat exchanger of air heaters is a component
subject to high thermal loads which must be replaced
10 years after initial commissioning of the heater.
In addition, the installation date must be entered
on the plate "original spare part" enclosed with the
heat exchanger must. Then affix the plate next to the
nameplate on the heater
From Eber manual.
The heat exchanger of air heaters is a component
subject to high thermal loads which must be replaced
10 years after initial commissioning of the heater.
In addition, the installation date must be entered
on the plate "original spare part" enclosed with the
heat exchanger must. Then affix the plate next to the
nameplate on the heater
FULL TIMER
Full Member
- Posts
- 1,398
- Likes
- 1,289
Filled many an ambulance station with smoke after attending to faulty heaters that people have had many attempts to start , due to the exhaust pipe getting soaked with fuel, surprising how many faces you suddenly see in what seemed like a deserted workshop 5 minutes before
Deleted member 5816
Guest
£77.45 from Butler Technic exchange I think.
although mine is 13 years old I don’t think it’s done the usage for exchange yet. I may make some enquiries though.
Alf
although mine is 13 years old I don’t think it’s done the usage for exchange yet. I may make some enquiries though.
Alf
FULL TIMER
Full Member
- Posts
- 1,398
- Likes
- 1,289
I've never seen one changed yet and certainly never seen the label / plate on any heater I've ever worked on, to be honest the motor or ECU is more likely to fail before that and at a cost of around £250 ish each if both need replacing as some do when a motor burns out its cheaper to replace the heater
Sharpie
Full Member
- Posts
- 294
- Likes
- 227
The pump is capable of sufficient pressure on the output side to cope with long pipes and vertical distances if necessary, though the burner itself needs hardly needs any pressure. The fuel basically just dribbles in at the rate that the pump doses.
On the inlet side it is reliant on the fuel feed being good. Whilst it may be able to bleed itself if the tank has been allowed to run dry it has such a tiny displacement that this is undesirable and can be a lengthy process, it is best manually bled through first.
An installation of the pickup tube in a vehicle tank will not usually go all the way to the bottom, where contaminants, particularly water, will settle. Also to ensure that the tank cannot be entirely drained by the heater, leaving a reserve for the engine. However this means that if you do run the tank nearly empty that the heater will pick up air instead of fuel and fail.
The bubbles induced by the pump action are not from cavitation (a quite different phenomenon), they are from outgassing of volatile substances in the fuel during the low pressure cycle of the pump. If the pump is installed at the wrong angle they can even prevent it from operating by accumulating inside.
Even UK winters can get cold, I've wild camped in Scotland by a sea bay which had frozen over, hard enough that we could walk out on it. The Truma Combi 2 ran continuously, rated at 1950 Watts output, but it was still not particularly warm. More heat would have been welcome. It consumed about half a 13 kg Calor bottle in one day, judging by the frost line on it. I also had to run the generator for a while to replenish the battery bank. The 12V power consumption is ambiguously stated to be 1.1A "average". It must have been drawing rather more.
It is specified to consume 130g of propane/hour. I.e my 11kg Gaslow would be depleted in 3.5 days continuous running if true.
Frankly those numbers are implausible, 130g of propane only contains 1.66 kWh of energy, so the Truma would have to be 118% efficient to get 1.95 kWh of heat from it. In practice it seems to guzzle much more. And yes, it is working properly.
Delve deeper into the specification and they say that it consumes 6.9 MJ/h of propane to deliver 1950 Watts of heat. That's also impossible, 6.9 MJ/h is only 1917 Watts. Though that represents 143 g/h of propane which is ten percent higher than their headline claim.
Their numbers simply don't make sense, and contradict themselves. Either the heater puts out less than 1950 Watts, or it consumes more gas than specified. Or both.
Elsewhere they claim that it is 98% efficient. I don't think so, there's definitely more than 39 watts coming out of the exhaust, and is as high as even the best rated domestic condensing boilers claim, with all their sophisticated technology.
1 litre of diesel (or 0.85 kilos) contains 10 kWh of energy.
Propane however much less. 1 litre (or 0.5 kilo) only contains 6.4 kWh of energy.
So diesel is 56% more energy dense than propane, by volume.
I assume that the diesel heaters have similar real world efficiency to the Truma Combi, the operating principle is similar.
The Eberspacher Airtronic D2 is specified to output 2200 W whilst consuming 0.28 l of diesel per hour. That's more believable. 2.8 kWh of diesel to produce 2.2 kWh of heat i.e 79% efficient. Using 34 W of electrical power, i.e 2.83 A at nominal 12V. That's 68 Ah per 24 hours, which is a heavy drain, and would require several hours running of the generator to replenish.
Running the numbers, 1l of road diesel at £1.30/l contains 10 kWh.
1.56 l of autogas at £0.70/l costs £1.09 for the same 10 kWh
1.56 l of Calor (0.78 kilos), in the 13kg bottle, costs £2.13
If I reserved say 100 l of my 125 l fuel tank for heating use, that would be the equivalent of 156 litres of LPG, or 78 kilos, and enough to keep an Airtronic D2 running continuously for two weeks. Still leaving me with enough fuel to drive about 160 miles.
Hence my interest in fitting one for extended cold weather camping, and the convenience of not having to worry about frequently sourcing scarce autogas, or the hassle and expense of using bottled gas.
On the inlet side it is reliant on the fuel feed being good. Whilst it may be able to bleed itself if the tank has been allowed to run dry it has such a tiny displacement that this is undesirable and can be a lengthy process, it is best manually bled through first.
An installation of the pickup tube in a vehicle tank will not usually go all the way to the bottom, where contaminants, particularly water, will settle. Also to ensure that the tank cannot be entirely drained by the heater, leaving a reserve for the engine. However this means that if you do run the tank nearly empty that the heater will pick up air instead of fuel and fail.
The bubbles induced by the pump action are not from cavitation (a quite different phenomenon), they are from outgassing of volatile substances in the fuel during the low pressure cycle of the pump. If the pump is installed at the wrong angle they can even prevent it from operating by accumulating inside.
Even UK winters can get cold, I've wild camped in Scotland by a sea bay which had frozen over, hard enough that we could walk out on it. The Truma Combi 2 ran continuously, rated at 1950 Watts output, but it was still not particularly warm. More heat would have been welcome. It consumed about half a 13 kg Calor bottle in one day, judging by the frost line on it. I also had to run the generator for a while to replenish the battery bank. The 12V power consumption is ambiguously stated to be 1.1A "average". It must have been drawing rather more.
It is specified to consume 130g of propane/hour. I.e my 11kg Gaslow would be depleted in 3.5 days continuous running if true.
Frankly those numbers are implausible, 130g of propane only contains 1.66 kWh of energy, so the Truma would have to be 118% efficient to get 1.95 kWh of heat from it. In practice it seems to guzzle much more. And yes, it is working properly.
Delve deeper into the specification and they say that it consumes 6.9 MJ/h of propane to deliver 1950 Watts of heat. That's also impossible, 6.9 MJ/h is only 1917 Watts. Though that represents 143 g/h of propane which is ten percent higher than their headline claim.
Their numbers simply don't make sense, and contradict themselves. Either the heater puts out less than 1950 Watts, or it consumes more gas than specified. Or both.
Elsewhere they claim that it is 98% efficient. I don't think so, there's definitely more than 39 watts coming out of the exhaust, and is as high as even the best rated domestic condensing boilers claim, with all their sophisticated technology.
1 litre of diesel (or 0.85 kilos) contains 10 kWh of energy.
Propane however much less. 1 litre (or 0.5 kilo) only contains 6.4 kWh of energy.
So diesel is 56% more energy dense than propane, by volume.
I assume that the diesel heaters have similar real world efficiency to the Truma Combi, the operating principle is similar.
The Eberspacher Airtronic D2 is specified to output 2200 W whilst consuming 0.28 l of diesel per hour. That's more believable. 2.8 kWh of diesel to produce 2.2 kWh of heat i.e 79% efficient. Using 34 W of electrical power, i.e 2.83 A at nominal 12V. That's 68 Ah per 24 hours, which is a heavy drain, and would require several hours running of the generator to replenish.
Running the numbers, 1l of road diesel at £1.30/l contains 10 kWh.
1.56 l of autogas at £0.70/l costs £1.09 for the same 10 kWh
1.56 l of Calor (0.78 kilos), in the 13kg bottle, costs £2.13
If I reserved say 100 l of my 125 l fuel tank for heating use, that would be the equivalent of 156 litres of LPG, or 78 kilos, and enough to keep an Airtronic D2 running continuously for two weeks. Still leaving me with enough fuel to drive about 160 miles.
Hence my interest in fitting one for extended cold weather camping, and the convenience of not having to worry about frequently sourcing scarce autogas, or the hassle and expense of using bottled gas.
Last edited:
Nabsim
Full Member
- Posts
- 5,696
- Likes
- 8,076
Regarding real life fuel use of an airtronic D4. I only use it when I am up, I don’t like it war, when I sleep. I have my controls set so I achieve approx 20 degrees internal temp in the van when on.
I have nothing sophisticated to messer by but I have just been parked up for two weeks above Chesterfield and it has been cold windy and damp or frost every day so I had the heating on all the time. Let’s say it was only on for 14 hours a day (never sleep 8 hours so that’s very conservative). Working from what the tank gauge shows I used almost a quarter of a tank of diesel. Near as dammit the tank is 100litres so let’s be generous and say it used 25 litres.
I estimate in real life situation i use approx 0.13 litres an hour running and that is a very conservative figure. Yes that may rise dependent on the weather, I had ice on internal windows 3 mornings in that period but for me it feels colder when it’s wet and windy than frost and sun.
I wouldn’t want to get rid of my diesel heater and in fact know at least one person who is fitting one of the copies in addition to their gas heating.The more heat sources you have the less chance of getting caught out but of course it depends how you use your van. I would like to add a wood burner but not yet at the point where I would. If I knew for sure there would be no issue with C1 in a few years it would have already been fitted lol
I have nothing sophisticated to messer by but I have just been parked up for two weeks above Chesterfield and it has been cold windy and damp or frost every day so I had the heating on all the time. Let’s say it was only on for 14 hours a day (never sleep 8 hours so that’s very conservative). Working from what the tank gauge shows I used almost a quarter of a tank of diesel. Near as dammit the tank is 100litres so let’s be generous and say it used 25 litres.
I estimate in real life situation i use approx 0.13 litres an hour running and that is a very conservative figure. Yes that may rise dependent on the weather, I had ice on internal windows 3 mornings in that period but for me it feels colder when it’s wet and windy than frost and sun.
I wouldn’t want to get rid of my diesel heater and in fact know at least one person who is fitting one of the copies in addition to their gas heating.The more heat sources you have the less chance of getting caught out but of course it depends how you use your van. I would like to add a wood burner but not yet at the point where I would. If I knew for sure there would be no issue with C1 in a few years it would have already been fitted lol
Sharpie
Full Member
- Posts
- 294
- Likes
- 227
I certainly wouldn't be without the Truma, but also adding another 2kW from something like a D2 would also be very useful and make fuel supply for an extended stay practical. The conditions I anticipate could easily drop to -20 at night, and the heater would have to be on 24/7 just to prevent the water system freezing, never mind keep it habitable when occupied during long winter nights. Perhaps not full power when out for the day, but I'd want to be able to get the van up to a reasonable temperature quickly afterwards, dry wet clothing etc. and keep it that way.
Pretty sure the Truma would be inadequate based on a number of marginal experiences in UK winter.
Even when on hookup I've sometimes found it necessary to burn gas as well as use the electric element to warm things up, totalling about 4 kW. A small fan heater sometimes gets an outing but the total power draw, with other systems also active, then is perilously close to the limit of a UK 16A supply, never mind the lower current ones usual elsewhere. If you can find one they can also be pretty expensive abroad. Typically you only get a 7A circuit breaker, then pay extra for the cabinet to be unlocked and a larger one fitted. They are very sensitive. If it happens when the warden has retired you just have to wait until the morning to be re-connected. Also if something trips the RCD covering several hookups you lose the lot. One particularly irritating incident was when a neighbour kept repeatedly tripping our circuits with his dodgy electrics, after two days of this he was evicted from the site.
Also had it trip during a thunderstorm, when it is prudent to unplug anyway.
Not unknown for selfish neighbours to unplug you to connect themselves if e.g. an aire has insufficient points, or they don't have a long lead to reach one. The cheeky ones will even do it whilst you are in residence rather than sneakily whilst you are out. The better ones will carry a Y splitter and politely ask to share the socket with you, but when two of you are sharing you must both be careful of your limited current draw.
I must have a reliable autonomous heating system, if only to kick in on thermostat if the hookup failed. Truma plus diesel would be belt and braces.
Your D4 will of course consume a lot more diesel and current than the D2 if turned up.
Pretty sure the Truma would be inadequate based on a number of marginal experiences in UK winter.
Even when on hookup I've sometimes found it necessary to burn gas as well as use the electric element to warm things up, totalling about 4 kW. A small fan heater sometimes gets an outing but the total power draw, with other systems also active, then is perilously close to the limit of a UK 16A supply, never mind the lower current ones usual elsewhere. If you can find one they can also be pretty expensive abroad. Typically you only get a 7A circuit breaker, then pay extra for the cabinet to be unlocked and a larger one fitted. They are very sensitive. If it happens when the warden has retired you just have to wait until the morning to be re-connected. Also if something trips the RCD covering several hookups you lose the lot. One particularly irritating incident was when a neighbour kept repeatedly tripping our circuits with his dodgy electrics, after two days of this he was evicted from the site.
Also had it trip during a thunderstorm, when it is prudent to unplug anyway.
Not unknown for selfish neighbours to unplug you to connect themselves if e.g. an aire has insufficient points, or they don't have a long lead to reach one. The cheeky ones will even do it whilst you are in residence rather than sneakily whilst you are out. The better ones will carry a Y splitter and politely ask to share the socket with you, but when two of you are sharing you must both be careful of your limited current draw.
I must have a reliable autonomous heating system, if only to kick in on thermostat if the hookup failed. Truma plus diesel would be belt and braces.
Your D4 will of course consume a lot more diesel and current than the D2 if turned up.
Nabsim
Full Member
- Posts
- 5,696
- Likes
- 8,076
If you are regularly going to be at -24 then I would think it only sensible to fit a diesel heater to complement or back up your gas system. My eber D4 was already fitted and only gas hob and grill so I have no backup at present. In the uk though you can normally survive with extra layers if dry.
there must be a site somewhere that gives a idea of real life usage figures I would have thought, there normally is but don’t know if one. I may be wrong but I would think if you fitted a D4 size you would get better fuel efficiency and electric consumption as it would be working less to maintain your settings. Mine will usually ramp up to full until it hits set point then drop back to almost tick over. It doesn’t use much power once warmed through. I am seeing around 6.5amp on startup and once going drops right down. I usually have a light or two on and maybe charging a phone etc at night so not isolated heater use on Rickover but typically I see 0.4 to 1.6 amps being consumed depending how many lights and what is charging. My big consumer is the compressor fridge
there must be a site somewhere that gives a idea of real life usage figures I would have thought, there normally is but don’t know if one. I may be wrong but I would think if you fitted a D4 size you would get better fuel efficiency and electric consumption as it would be working less to maintain your settings. Mine will usually ramp up to full until it hits set point then drop back to almost tick over. It doesn’t use much power once warmed through. I am seeing around 6.5amp on startup and once going drops right down. I usually have a light or two on and maybe charging a phone etc at night so not isolated heater use on Rickover but typically I see 0.4 to 1.6 amps being consumed depending how many lights and what is charging. My big consumer is the compressor fridge
Sharpie
Full Member
- Posts
- 294
- Likes
- 227
I'm impressed with the functionality of the better controllers for the Chinese heaters that can display the dose rate, read back error codes, even allow manual adjustment of the various power settings away from the factory defaults.
Not sure whether that is available on Eberspachers or Webastos, perhaps someone could advise ?
Certainly not the basic ones with just a knob to twiddle. I am also hesitant about the extremely sophisticated electronics of the latest ones, controlled over CANbus, or even remotely using an app on your 'phone from anywhere with a signal. Not convinced of the utility of that, and as an electronic engineer cautious of such complexity.
Not that I could afford such an installation, it'll have to be Chinese for me.
Another good resource is https://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/eberspacher_intro_1.html where a great deal of information is given, on maintenance (yes it is necessary), failure modes, diagnosis and repairs, autopsies showing the nasty things that can and do go wrong etc.
Not sure whether that is available on Eberspachers or Webastos, perhaps someone could advise ?
Certainly not the basic ones with just a knob to twiddle. I am also hesitant about the extremely sophisticated electronics of the latest ones, controlled over CANbus, or even remotely using an app on your 'phone from anywhere with a signal. Not convinced of the utility of that, and as an electronic engineer cautious of such complexity.
Not that I could afford such an installation, it'll have to be Chinese for me.
Another good resource is https://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/eberspacher_intro_1.html where a great deal of information is given, on maintenance (yes it is necessary), failure modes, diagnosis and repairs, autopsies showing the nasty things that can and do go wrong etc.
Sharpie
Full Member
- Posts
- 294
- Likes
- 227
I anticipate significant current draw during the long winter nights, when I like to be entertained watching the TV or DVDs, working on the laptop editing my photos and videos, using the internet and so on. I've got 180 Ah of batteries but only really 90Ah is usable before damaging them, and that's when they are new. Ideally they should not even be cycled down to this sort of level every day, wear will soon build up.
I'd like to be prepared for this sort of thing, though I won't be setting out looking to find extreme temperatures:
February this year was one of the worst, see https://www.planetski.eu/news/3509 well below -20 across many ski resorts.
E.g. at Zermatt -13 degrees is predicted tonight with freezing rain (ugh). Fortunately the motorhome parking down the road at Tschaval is well set up.
Here's a description of the sort of arrangements in France: https://www.morznet.com/reviews/life-in-a-campervan-in-the-portes-du-soleil-morzine-683612
I'd like to be prepared for this sort of thing, though I won't be setting out looking to find extreme temperatures:
February this year was one of the worst, see https://www.planetski.eu/news/3509 well below -20 across many ski resorts.
E.g. at Zermatt -13 degrees is predicted tonight with freezing rain (ugh). Fortunately the motorhome parking down the road at Tschaval is well set up.
Here's a description of the sort of arrangements in France: https://www.morznet.com/reviews/life-in-a-campervan-in-the-portes-du-soleil-morzine-683612
SquirrellCook
Full Member
- Posts
- 805
- Likes
- 1,246
Both Anita and I don't like to be too warm whilst sleeping. We normally set our D2 to 15 or 16 degrees C, the D2 is at the front of "Murky" mounted where the drivers step would have been. A filtered air intake is close to the front of the drivers set. It has two air outlets, one in the middle of the habitation area and one in the wet room below the bed. Making the sleeping temperature comfortable does mean it be cold climbing down to put the kettle on. I guess with the fact heat rises, this is one downside of sleeping high. We also have a M12 water heater than can be used to boost the temperature with wet fan heaters that are normally used whilst driving. Power worries are not so bad for us and the heating uses the engine start batteries. Two LFD90's. The new build "Betty" is having a new D4L in the hope it won't need topping up in cold extremes.
trevskoda
Full Member
- Posts
- 41,260
- Likes
- 59,360
Winter derv.
Sharpie
Full Member
- Posts
- 294
- Likes
- 227
As I've already explained, propane is not the answer, for me.
It would be impractical to source or store enough for an extended stay. A few nights maybe. Never mind having enough space in the gas locker for it. Continental autogas is no good, it's normally a propane butane blend, in winter the butane just lies uselessly in the cylinder, with every refill you have less and less capacity. As I have discovered myself.
Not a problem for automotive use, they first boil it up in a heat exchanger using engine coolant. UK autogas is nearly all propane, much better.
LPG chills as it vaporises, the bottle becomes far colder than the external temperature. Even in summer if you have a heavy demand a propane bottle will go sub zero and frost form on the outside at the liquid level. It would have been game over long before then with butane.
It would not be usable anywhere remotely near -44 C, that's simply when the liquid's vapour pressure equals atmospheric. The colder it gets the more energy it takes to vaporise it. See https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/latent-heat-vaporization-propane-d_1203.html for data.
In a gas cylinder that energy comes from the surrounding air. Which is static when enclosed in a locker. Or you have to fit a heater to it, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/propane-tank-blanket/s?k=propane+tank+blanket . Which requires electrical power.
As the cylinder empties the problem becomes worse.
I had some roofing done, and the chap used a huge 47 kg Calor cylinder that he lugged about on a sack barrow. I was surprised, but he explained that even a more manageable 19 kg cylinder could not keep up with his torch when it was chilly and not full, never mind when two of them were working together.
Try to extract say 4 kW continuously from a 13 kg bottle in an enclosed gas locker, and propane can still struggle and become extremely cold as the cylinder empties. The smaller the bottle, the lower the liquid level, the worse the problem. Might work OK when full, not so much when nearing empty.
No, I see diesel as the only practical solution and far safer. Besides, I need an additional heat source anyway, the Truma is under powered, I have a massive 125 l fuel tank that I rarely brim (enough to get me from my house to the south coast of France without refilling), so it is logical.
Not concerned about diesel waxing or gelling. The days of truckers having to light fires under their lorries to warm the lines and tank are behind us. It will be winter grade where I plan to go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590
It would be impractical to source or store enough for an extended stay. A few nights maybe. Never mind having enough space in the gas locker for it. Continental autogas is no good, it's normally a propane butane blend, in winter the butane just lies uselessly in the cylinder, with every refill you have less and less capacity. As I have discovered myself.
Not a problem for automotive use, they first boil it up in a heat exchanger using engine coolant. UK autogas is nearly all propane, much better.
LPG chills as it vaporises, the bottle becomes far colder than the external temperature. Even in summer if you have a heavy demand a propane bottle will go sub zero and frost form on the outside at the liquid level. It would have been game over long before then with butane.
It would not be usable anywhere remotely near -44 C, that's simply when the liquid's vapour pressure equals atmospheric. The colder it gets the more energy it takes to vaporise it. See https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/latent-heat-vaporization-propane-d_1203.html for data.
In a gas cylinder that energy comes from the surrounding air. Which is static when enclosed in a locker. Or you have to fit a heater to it, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/propane-tank-blanket/s?k=propane+tank+blanket . Which requires electrical power.
As the cylinder empties the problem becomes worse.
I had some roofing done, and the chap used a huge 47 kg Calor cylinder that he lugged about on a sack barrow. I was surprised, but he explained that even a more manageable 19 kg cylinder could not keep up with his torch when it was chilly and not full, never mind when two of them were working together.
Try to extract say 4 kW continuously from a 13 kg bottle in an enclosed gas locker, and propane can still struggle and become extremely cold as the cylinder empties. The smaller the bottle, the lower the liquid level, the worse the problem. Might work OK when full, not so much when nearing empty.
No, I see diesel as the only practical solution and far safer. Besides, I need an additional heat source anyway, the Truma is under powered, I have a massive 125 l fuel tank that I rarely brim (enough to get me from my house to the south coast of France without refilling), so it is logical.
Not concerned about diesel waxing or gelling. The days of truckers having to light fires under their lorries to warm the lines and tank are behind us. It will be winter grade where I plan to go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590
Nabsim
Full Member
- Posts
- 5,696
- Likes
- 8,076
You sure UK diesel is good for -44 degrees?
unless global warming makes massive changes I don’t think I am likely to hit those temps. I would think a gas system and a diesel system would be the ideal so you ‘should’ have a backup. Diesel cookers are expensive
unless global warming makes massive changes I don’t think I am likely to hit those temps. I would think a gas system and a diesel system would be the ideal so you ‘should’ have a backup. Diesel cookers are expensive