Dept of Transport and Pop Top roof

[Markd]

Doesn't really matter what the reason was - they've seem to have made their minds up and are only recognising mainstream converters.
We seem to have established that on the mainland anyway insurance companies are prepared to provide cover for 'vans with windows' on very similar terms to motorhomes.
If we decide that we want to spend the extra money to travel at higher speeds then we need to buy a vehicle that allows them.
Unfortunately there a few people who started conversions before the rules began to be enforced more rigorously and our sympathy goes out to them if they wanted higher speeds.
However DVLA stance does seem to have been pretty clear for some while now and like the unmentionable subject it's time we accepted it.

 

[Markd]

as Trev says.
Plus increased Speed Limits (change from Van Speeds of 50/60 for Single/Dual Carriageways to Car Speeds of 60/70)

I have a coachbuilt motorhome but as it's over 3.5T and technically an HGV (was registered at under when I bought it but was 3.4T empty!!) I'm restricted to lower limits which isn't a big deal really as any faster gobbled fuel.
I don't find 50 mph on singles a big problem as commonly that's the running speed of traffic.
Not infrequently I find that I get behind a car doing less than 50 mph traffic builds up behind if I can't overtake but I always leave space for cars to get past and pull in front of me if they want to.
The main problem with busy single carriageway is not the performance of my van in terms of overtaking but the volume of oncoming traffic.

 

[GeoffL]

Doesn't really matter what the reason was - they've seem to have made their minds up and are only recognising mainstream converters.
[...]
However DVLA stance does seem to have been pretty clear for some while now and like the unmentionable subject it's time we accepted it.

AFAICT, they're treating mainstream converters the same as they are self-builders. The VW California is built that way at the factory -- so (unlike Autotrail, Swift, Burstnet, Adria, et al.) it's not even a professional builder conversion. The vehicle was designed and built from the outset as a camper but cannot be registered as a "motor caravan". PVCs from mainstream converters that are registered as "motor caravans" are, AFAICT, all based on high-top vans and meet all the other requirements. If you convert a high-top, van and meet all the requirements, AFAICT, DVLA will change the body type to "motor caravan"

Even though the DVLA seem consistent 'enforcing' this, what they say doesn't make sense. Consider the converse situation: e.g. a race van, that has the external appearance of a high-top PVC motorhome but the inside is mainly given to carrying motorbikes, tools, fuel, spares, etc. According to DVLA logic, this should be registered as a "motor caravan" as that is what it looks like to emergency services in traffic...

 

[Markd]

VW van isn't high top so no chance of Motorcaravan status now. No problem with insurance and speeds anyway so a bit of a red herring.

I'm not convinced about DVLA willingness to register 'private' conversions.
In the last 12 months I don't recall reading about anyone being successful - it could be of course that there's no mileage in that and we only hear from 'whingers'
If course there may be hundreds but Wildebus did FoI Enquiry and didn't reveal that.

I don't think that DVLA criteria suggest that 'race vans' to be classified as motorcaravans.
Mostly because it's the external appearance that the use to not allow m-c classification. Often we read that the level of penetration is a key factor.
So unless the back half of a race van us full of wi does on all 3 sides it doesn't stand a chance.
Do we know how commercial race van converters are getting on?

Looking for logic in a government decision isn't something I'd necessarily spend much time on

 

[GeoffL]

The external appearance of many race vans is very like a PVC motorhome. For that, many might actually be motorhomes except for their intended primary purpose being for storage and conveyance of goods. Some race vans are very nice, with about the front third given over to habitation and sometimes with a drop-down bed over the garage/workshop. Below are a few photos of race vans, you might also want to look at https://www.mclarensportshomes.co.uk/vw-crafter-motocross-race-van-conversion/.html for one built from new as a race van. They are all high-top vans with windows behind the cab, access doors other than the cab doors, 'motorhome graphics' and awnings. They thus look like PVC motorhomes and meet all the DVLA 'external permanent features'.

 

[Markd]

Very impressive conversions - do we know how they are classified?

 

[wildebus]

Because motor-caravans have a higher speed limit it must be obvious to plod whether a vehicle is just a van or a motor-caravan when they see it 'speeding'

Really? Interesting concept.... "Ah, he is doing 70. Must be a camper"
(sorry, just the way you wrote it, but I think I get your drift.

However ....

I think that we've lost the battle to get self builds to be motor-caravans and will just have to live with the lower dual way speed limit in most cases.

not quite ...

Converting a vehicle into a motor caravan (motor home)

www.gov.uk

"The body type does not affect the insurance category of the vehicle, or have any effect on speed limits or other legislative requirements. It is only used for establishing vehicle appearance and identification."
and
"It is important to remember that even if the vehicle’s body type is not changed to ‘motor caravan’, the vehicle can still be used for this purpose as long as the keeper is satisfied the converted vehicle meets the required internal features for motor caravans."

As I have pointed out numerous times, the speed limits are defined by a combination of the type and use of the vehicle.
A motor caravan used for business purposes is limited in speed to a commercial vehicles speed. This is why when I converted my VW T5 which started life as a "Diesel Car" with a body type of "MPV" I didn't get it reclassified to a "Motor Caravan" as it would have negatively impacted it. The only potential benefit would have been insurance and I agreed with the broker that it did not need reclassification to have Campervan insurance.
Loads of people think speeds limits are defined by Classifications solely. And also if the vehicle is an "N" or an "M" on the V5C - N or M is totally irrelevant when it comes to speed limits, but you can't explain that to some folk.

The benefit in terms of speed limits when it comes to Motor Caravan classification is more on the lines that if you are doing say 70 on a Dual Carriageway in your fully converted campervan, if you have a "Motor Caravan", the authorities would have to prove you should not have been. If you are classified as say a "Van/Side Windows", you would have to show you WERE entitled to.
You have the same rights either way, but the burden of proof is shifted (and with the majority of Speed Enforcement being done by automated Camera, having a speed ticket for doing 70 on a Dual Carriageway in a "Motor Caravan" will be 1) unlikely and 2) a hell of lot easier to dismiss (and THIS is why the chancers made pretend campers for reclassification purposes).
In a "Van/Side Windows" it is perfectly doable to cancel but a fair bit more hassle I would say.


Oh - another benefit of reclassification (and one that remains affected by the DVLA policy) is Toll Bridges/Roads and some Ferries.

 

[Markd]

Great explanation and I stand corrected to be honest having seen the 'complaint' so many times, I had no idea that use determined speed limit.
Nor, i expect, do most of those having done a proper conversion complain about not having higher limits when turned down for m-c status.
Perhaps it's more well known on 'builder forum?

We've read about Automatic toll charging being 'wrong' but changed on appeal and then charged appropriately in the future after company records updated.
I only get car charge on Tyne Tunnel despite being Private HGV - presumably because body type is M-C

Anyway thanks for the clarification.

 

[wildebus]

FWIW, when I did my conversion of my 4.6t VW Van, I deliberately took it to a weighbridge and got a ticket showing the weight (and this was when it was usable as a camper - had battery and solar panel as well as furniture). Weight was 2.95t I think? It was under the 3.05t ULW figure for the 70 to 60 speed cutoff. So even though it is a 4600Kg GVW vehicle, I can still go at car speeds (and it is a "Motor Caravan" on the V5C)
However .... like you said earlier about having to stick to 50MPH, I also don't have an issue limiting myself (as opposed to a legal limit) to lower speeds as that is a heavy vehicle to be driving at high speeds IMO (the only reason I got the weight ticket was so if I inadvertantly went over the 'van' limit I would not be over the legal speed).
I would be perfectly ok if the law actually said that Motor Caravans of any weight were limited to commercial van speeds.

 

[trevskoda]

AFAICT, they're treating mainstream converters the same as they are self-builders. The VW California is built that way at the factory -- so (unlike Autotrail, Swift, Burstnet, Adria, et al.) it's not even a professional builder conversion. The vehicle was designed and built from the outset as a camper but cannot be registered as a "motor caravan". PVCs from mainstream converters that are registered as "motor caravans" are, AFAICT, all based on high-top vans and meet all the other requirements. If you convert a high-top, van and meet all the requirements, AFAICT, DVLA will change the body type to "motor caravan"

Even though the DVLA seem consistent 'enforcing' this, what they say doesn't make sense. Consider the converse situation: e.g. a race van, that has the external appearance of a high-top PVC motorhome but the inside is mainly given to carrying motorbikes, tools, fuel, spares, etc. According to DVLA logic, this should be registered as a "motor caravan" as that is what it looks like to emergency services in traffic...

No it cannot if carrying a m/cycle, it will either be a com or showmans van and reg as such, in a motorcaravan all you are allowed are things like deck chairs tables and things for or to do with camping.

 

[GeoffL]

No it cannot if carrying a m/cycle, it will either be a com or showmans van and reg as such, in a motorcaravan all you are allowed are things like deck chairs tables and things for or to do with camping.

That's the point I was making. It's clearly not a motor caravan even if it looks like one. So why should the DVLA (apparently) only apply the "what it looks like" test to motorhomes? Vehicles that are clearly motor caravans are being refused recognition because the DVLA claim that it's what the vehicle looks like to emergency services in traffic that counts -- but they only seems to apply this principle to motorhomes.

FWIW, re. race vans: these are probably 'living vans' for most purposes and so those over 3.5 tonnes MAM should be fitted with tachometers and subject to annual 'MOT' testing from one year old -- even though they look like motor caravans!

 

[Markd]

Might also need limiters?

McLaren describe their race vans as motorhomes which is beginning to sound a bit naughty.
If they manage to get body type M-C on V5 then they've cracked the ANPR side of speed limit enforcement and only if stopped on the road and the coppers are wise to the regs and actually look in the back will lower limit be picked up.
So yes GeoffL it does look contradictory but as Wildebus says it's only using a motorhome as a living van that changes the limit.
As does hanging a motorcycle on the back of a 'real' motorhome which is immediately obvious if stopped. At which time it's more than likely rear axle overloading is happening!

 

[wildebus]

You see this kind of discussion on forums for the "Horsey" set, where they have smart horseboxes >3.5t to take little Jemina to Gymkhanas.
If Jemina is going to compete, do they need a Tacho and operators licence?
If not just for travelling there, what if she wins? She has a 'reward' now and does that change the picture?
Or is Trigger (Jemina's pony) just a pet same as a cat or a dog? and needs a secure environment for traval same as a dog might have a cage to travel in? no difference except you have free manure for the garden.

OK.... Now change Gymkhana to Dog Show and you are taking your family (including the pet dog) to a local Dog Show in your PHGV Motor Caravan? And you decide to enter on a whim the "dog that looks most like its owner" category and win a £25 Pets at Home voucher
Got your reward there, so where is your Operators Licence before you drive home? And your Tacho if over 100km from Home?


The whole subject is a overcomplicated nightmare and if you start overthinking it you will just end up blubing in a corner murmuring gibberish (assuming not at that stage already of course )

 

[Markd]

I think the argument that as there is no guarantee of income the token winnings are incidental.

And the horsey set often have over 7.5T vehicles as well just to complicate matters!

It's a ****** nightmare!

 

[RV2MAX]

Horse boxes over 3.5 are plated and HGV tested , even if fitted with accommodation for 2 legged users (living van) also have speed limiters if under certain
age.

 

[Drover]

Living vans/vehicles are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are classed as IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or subject to HGV plating and testing.
All are weight depending.
Showmans road tax is or was class10 and £165 for 12 months .
Should cover the horsey set.
I dont think they come into the pop top theory.
All this fuss with the dvla has come about from people sticking a window in the side and a blow up mattress in the back of their own works van (most are self employed) when they discover the insurance /mot and tax would be cheaper...

 

[wildebus]

Living vans/vehicles are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are classed as IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or subject to HGV plating and testing.
All are weight depending.
Showmans road tax is or was class10 and £165 for 12 months .
Should cover the horsey set.
I dont think they come into the pop top theory.
All this fuss with the dvla has come about from people sticking a window in the side and a blow up mattress in the back of their own works van (most are self employed) when they discover the insurance /mot and tax would be cheaper...

Tax isn't changed.
MOT isn't changed significantly unless converting an HGV - and the MOT class is not determined by the Vehicles V5C classification anyway.
Insurance usually is (but only by getting insurance which is inappropriate and likely invalid for the use the vehicle is put to)

 

[Spike]

Thanks for the help everyone.
It's already a minibus - so no speed limit or insurance advantages.

 

[wildebus]

Thanks for the help everyone.
It's already a minibus - so no speed limit or insurance advantages.

something I found with my VW Shuttle when I first insured at as originally supplied ... Quite a few insurance companies using Confused.com would not quote it as they - incorrectly - classified it as a Minibus. I added it to my Admiral multi-car policy, but they would not insure it as a 9-seater and I had to tell them one seat was removed so it was only an 8 seater - which was fine.
I don't know if something similar has happened with you?

FWIW, ref Minibus classification... a Minibus in the UK officially has between 9 and 16 passenger seats (which is why so you see so many vans with no more than 16 passenger seats). Lots of insurance companies incorrectly interpret that regulation as a minibus having 9 seats in total (as opposed to the correct 10 seats = 1 driver + 9 passengers). There is no point in arguing with them and I took the stance that if they can't get the basics right, what else have they mucked up in their policies?

 

[SquirrellCook]

FWIW, re. race vans: these are probably 'living vans' for most purposes and so those over 3.5 tonnes MAM should be fitted with tachometers and subject to annual 'MOT' testing from one year old -- even though they look like motor caravans!

I explored this a while back, and I'd rather have a ministry type test. It's better than having MOT test station operators making the rules up as the go.
I have a coach that you can live in, in fact off grid for some time if careful with the water. It also has a large wet room in the back.
I tried the get it tested at a DVSA inspection centre, at the time they were being inspected! It was agreed that it couldn't be anything other than a motorhome and as such required a class 4 MOT. Even to be a Goods vehicle it would need type approval. So could never be a "N" class goods vehicle.
So when your documents are changed to "motorhome" make sure it also changes to "M" class. Passenger vehicle.
With a 7.5 tonnes HGV, if it's private you can apply for plating exemption and you used to also be able to apply for tachograph exemption.

If your motorhome is "N" class you can carry your own "goods" in it.

Don't blame me if it doesn't work out in court, because they make up the rules as they go along too!