Dept of Transport and Pop Top roof

[trevskoda]

The simple thing would be if a mot test centre looked at van and if it ticked all the boxes a form from them stating this and posted to dvla should be mandatory, a small charge of say £30 which I think most folk would be happy with.
This would do away with the cowboys and the test centre would have a set of proper regs to go on from dvla.

 

[myvanwy]

Just remind me Trev. When was the last time a government dept. did the simplest thing?

 

[campervanannie]

Mine is still registered as van but insured as MH, can't remember what the price difference was, all insurance is top whack with my post code. Was once given a quote of over £5000 for a van. Luckily don't pay anywhere near that.

Re, fixed table. Pretty sure it's only table mount that has to be fixed/permanent, not the table itself.

Yes that’s what I meant but the photo had to show the table in situ hence the balancing act

 

[campervanannie]

When I insured one of my vans with Adrian Flux because it was not registered as a camper but wanted to insure it as one they sent a form that I had to take the van and the form to a garage and they had to check out certain items in the van like cooker table water and they had to measure the bed it was a tick sheet with a box for bed size then they had to stamp with MOT stamp and sign and return to A F in a pre paid envelope once A F received this they would insure as a camper. I had trouble with them when I changed vans @nd insured with another broker they would not transfer my NCB to the new insurance.

 

[Tookey]

The official reason is so the emergency services can identify vehicles better.

That explanation makes no sense at all. I would not be surprised if the real reason is the amount of people playing the system and getting vans reclassified as Motor Caravans without actually doing anything to them by submitting internal photos of other already converted campers with their request (conversions on a year by year basis were going up 2 or 3 fold times I saw when I got the Request and Accepted volumes for Motor Caravan reclassification requests via a FOIR)
If you look at the VW Forums and see the number od people boasting about doing just that kind of thing you would understand (and I bet there are plenty of other forums where people with Transits, Renaults, Ducatos, etc, etc are doing just the same).

Reap what you sow....

I agree with with you about the 'real' reason but in the event of an RTA a camper looking like a camper will assist the services with identifying a potential gas source and checking the rear of the van for occupants

 

[Nabsim]

Changing classification should require a visit to an inspector/IVA (or whatever they call it now) type of thing. No arguments then

 

[wildebus]

Changing classification should require a visit to an inspector/IVA (or whatever they call it now) type of thing. No arguments then

Might happen.
Just be greatful that you don't live in Spain, Italy, France, etc. The amount of changes you can do as a private individual to a van to make a Camper (ignoring any reclassification desires) can be tiny. Fitting a roof vent that is not original can mean MOT (equivalent) failures. Different wheels? no chance! Want side running bars? on your bike!
People don't realise how flexible and relaxed the UK (GB anyway) is regarding messing about with vehicles compared to most of Europe!

 

[Nabsim]

Might happen.
Just be greatful that you don't live in Spain, Italy, France, etc. The amount of changes you can do as a private individual to a van to make a Camper (ignoring any reclassification desires) can be tiny. Fitting a roof vent that is not original can mean MOT (equivalent) failures. Different wheels? no chance! Want side running bars? on your bike!
People don't realise how flexible and relaxed the UK (GB anyway) is regarding messing about with vehicles compared to most of Europe!

I have gone through the testing process a couple of times with trike builds. If you do everything right it isn’t a problem normally. I agree it is a lot easier here than other places but any major change or reclassification should be tested IMO

 

[Markd]

Well I got the instructions from a gov website and they were very specific about showing the reg plate with an internal view and the only thing I cheated on was the fixed table as I didn’t want one I had to do a fine balancing act for the pic this was a few years back so maybe things have changed.

Table can be movable anyway to allow conversion to bed base.

 

[Markd]

Don't worry about having a pop top - they won't give you motorhome classification whatever you do.

So do whatever you want for your own convenience it's going to be a van with windows

 

[GeoffL]

Re. classification as a motor caravan vs a van with windows and speed limits: I haven't been able to work out what the speed limits are in UK. According to this government webpage, "motorhomes and motor caravans with an unladen weight of 3.05 tonnes or less" have a speed limit of 70mph on dual carriageways, 60mph on single carriageways, etc. However, there is no such body type as "motorhome" and all motorhomes are either "motor caravans" or "vans with windows". The linked government webpage makes an implicity distinction between "motorhome" and "motorcaravan" and also states that, "Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they carry goods for exhibition and sale; are used as a workshop; or are used for storage". From this, I infer that it's the actual use to which the vehicle is being put rather than its body type that matters and hence a "van with windows" conversion used recreationally as a motorhome should be subject to the higher speed limits. That said, I am not a lawyer...

 

[Markd]

This is the nub and backs up DVLA point.
Because motor-caravans have a higher speed limit it must be obvious to plod whether a vehicle is just a van or a motor-caravan when they see it 'speeding'
Yes there's a technicality about carriage of goods and an argument that motorcycle inside is carriage - but that wouldn't be obvious.
I think that we've lost the battle to get self builds to be motor-caravans and will just have to live with the lower dual way speed limit in most cases.

 

[Debs]

I talked to my insurance about the DVLA stance, and their reply was that they fully understood the situation, and said that as long as I apply for re-classification within a certain time frame, they were quite happy to continue the insurance. My Insurance are only concerned that the vehicle is used solely for pleasure and not for the conveyance of goods, and not for hire or reward.

 

[GeoffL]

This is the nub and backs up DVLA point.
Because motor-caravans have a higher speed limit it must be obvious to plod whether a vehicle is just a van or a motor-caravan when they see it 'speeding'
Yes there's a technicality about carriage of goods and an argument that motorcycle inside is carriage - but that wouldn't be obvious.
I think that we've lost the battle to get self builds to be motor-caravans and will just have to live with the lower dual way speed limit in most cases.

I see what you're saying -- and it would make sense if it weren't perversely illogical. Your logic is fine, it's DVLA's that's awry if what I seem to remember is correct. I'm reasonably sure that I've seen something from DVLA that "van with windows" motorhomes are subject to the speed limits as any other motorhome of that weight. OTOH, registering a vehicle as a motor caravan means that it comes up as a motor caravan when plod ping it and carry out their checks before actually pulling it. This also allows due diligence checks when a speed camera pings the van before issuing a speed-related NIP. Neither are possible if the vehicle isn't registered with regard to its actual use.

Edited to add: regarding using a van for 'storage': I suspect whether a van is used for 'storage' depends on whether that item being stored is required for its use as a motorhome. So, for example, the storing of food, water, clothing, etc. required during a holiday probably wouldn't mean the van was being 'used for storage'. Similarly, I suspect keeping a bike or two on or in the vehicle to be used recreationally while on site wouldn't count...

 

[1 Cup]

So a van with windows 70mph
Myself had full ncd for work and they transfered it over to private sdp. Untill late 2017 as I dont own any vehicals and rode a bike to work. So expired.
This van 2020 paid £400ish on tipy tapy and when they called about modifications, they cancelled ncd as they have a 2 year expired so lost 15 years without a fault claim.
Cost after ajustments £490 . With avia.
So what savings do ncd hold ??? For the over 50s

 

[colinm]

I see what you're saying -- and it would make sense if it weren't perversely illogical. Your logic is fine, it's DVLA's that's awry if what I seem to remember is correct. I'm reasonably sure that I've seen something from DVLA that "van with windows" motorhomes are subject to the speed limits as any other motorhome of that weight. OTOH, registering a vehicle as a motor caravan means that it comes up as a motor caravan when plod ping it and carry out their checks before actually pulling it. This also allows due diligence checks when a speed camera pings the van before issuing a speed-related NIP. Neither are possible if the vehicle isn't registered with regard to its actual use.

Edited to add: regarding using a van for 'storage': I suspect whether a van is used for 'storage' depends on whether that item being stored is required for its use as a motorhome. So, for example, the storing of food, water, clothing, etc. required during a holiday probably wouldn't mean the van was being 'used for storage'. Similarly, I suspect keeping a bike or two on or in the vehicle to be used recreationally while on site wouldn't count...

And lets not forget, when 'plod' or camera 'sees' a motor caravan doing 70 on a dual carriageway they must then somehow decided if that vehicle is under 3050kg unladen. Also AFAIK if it's a new vehicle and pop top it can be registered as motor caravan.

 

[SquirrellCook]

I apologise as I'm continuing the drift from the original post, but as a matter of interest. Our "Betty" build is insured as a motorhome, but work in progress. We can't take it on a public highway unless it's to a pre arranged MOT. Even then we must inform them.

 

[GeoffL]

[...] Also AFAIK if it's a new vehicle and pop top it can be registered as motor caravan.

I hear that is not the case and that new, factory-built pop-tops (e.g. VW California) cannot be registered as "motor caravans". AIUI, VW have got around this by registering their campers as "MPVs".

Returning to where I'd seen the DVLA's claim re speed limits: it's on their web page giving guidance on the new rules (here). in that, they say:

The body type does not affect the insurance category of the vehicle, or have any effect on speed limits or other legislative requirements. It is only used for establishing vehicle appearance and identification.
It is important to remember that even if the vehicle’s body type is not changed to ‘motor caravan’, the vehicle can still be used for this purpose as long as the keeper is satisfied the converted vehicle meets the required internal features for motor caravans.

So this leaves both self-builders and purchasers of new PVCs in a quandary because (according to the DVLA) a vehicle that meets the internal requirements for a motor caravan is subject to the higher speed limits -- but AFAICT it hasn't been tested in court as to whether this is the case or whether DVLA lied when they said that the body type has no effect on speed limits etc. (unless I'm missing something?)

 

[colinm]

Returning to where I'd seen the DVLA's claim re speed limits: it's on their web page giving guidance on the new rules (here). in that, they say:

So this leaves both self-builders and purchasers of new PVCs in a quandary because (according to the DVLA) a vehicle that meets the internal requirements for a motor caravan is subject to the higher speed limits -- but AFAICT it hasn't been tested in court as to whether this is the case or whether DVLA lied when they said that the body type has no effect on speed limits etc. (unless I'm missing something?)

This seems to indicate that reconisation of the vehicle for speed limits is a total red herring, we then go back to what I read some time back, the reasoning behind this is to cut down on stolen vehicles being cloned.

 

[Markd]

And lets not forget, when 'plod' or camera 'sees' a motor caravan doing 70 on a dual carriageway they must then somehow decided if that vehicle is under 3050kg unladen. Also AFAIK if it's a new vehicle and pop top it can be registered as motor caravan.

I suspect that it's probably the other way round - they'll be looking for commercial vehicle over 60 mph on duals - DVLA classification from number plate will determine fine or not.
I read that VW are not registering California's as motorcaravans but as non commercial and under 3050kg anyway they have higher limits.