Delays at Dover

[TJBi]

I don’t agree, these other ports don’t have the same problems due to much lower numbers. Hence why it’s being proposed that travellers numbers at Dover will be restricted in busy periods, with travellers using the other quieter ports. But I do think reversing the current set up may help. I think it should be at least looked at, but I don’t know if both countries would agree.

The lower numbers of passengers are presumably handled by lower numbers of border control personnel, but the point that was raised by another poster was that other UK seaports don't have this issue; my response was that that is because EU border control is not undertaken in other UK seaports.

 

[Fisherman]

The lower numbers of passengers are presumably handled by lower numbers of border control personnel, but the point that was raised by another poster was that other UK seaports don't have this issue; my response was that that is because EU border control is not undertaken in other UK seaports.

As I said possibly reversing the controls may help, who knows.
But the reason for all of this is clear. Dover at times struggled before the changes, I reckon it simply cannot cope with the changes.

 

[maingate]

In light of the unrest and rioting in France, Dover may be swamped with French citizens ........ arriving in small rubber boats.

 

[mark61]

As I said possibly reversing the controls may help, who knows.
But the reason for all of this is clear. Dover at times struggled before the changes, I reckon it simply cannot cope with the changes.

It struggled at times before the changes and it struggles at time after the changes.
Yet it’s the changes it can’t cope with.

No change then.

 

[Fisherman]

It struggled at times before the changes and it struggles at time after the changes.
Yet it’s the changes it can’t cope with.

No change then.

Only you could draw that conclusion Mark.
Theres a difference between struggling and coping, and simply not being able to cope. The changes have made matters a whole lot worse. Dover simply cannot cope now, particularly during busy periods.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-******-played-role-in-traffic-chaos-at-dover

What caused the problems?​

Poor weather and delayed ferries on Friday and Saturday may have had a marginal effect, but according to the boss of the Port of Dover, the main issue has been passport control in France.


For the past 20 years, management of the border with France has been “juxtaposed”, with Police aux Frontieres (France’s Border Force) officers stationed in Dover and Folkestone, and UK Border Force staff in Calais and Dunkirk.

Until 2021, there was a “light touch” approach, with many vehicles simply waved through. Even if the French officer did look, the only formality for British citizens was a simple verification check: “Is this a valid EU travel document, and is this the holder?”

But the UK signed up for a hard European Union border to be installed with our nearest continental neighbour – like the borders the EU has with Russia and Turkey.

Every UK passport holder – and these make up two-thirds of Dover’s tourist traffic – must now have their passport examined and stamped.

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...port-ferry-queues-delays-******-b2312526.html

 

[mark61]

Good grief.
Gonna have to do better with your appeals to authority.

 

[alcam]

Getting dizzy. A few on here appear to be arguing with themselves.
Dover having problems at busy times because it takes longer to process coachfuls of people since B....
All agreed ?
Super

 

[Fisherman]

Getting dizzy. A few on here appear to be arguing with themselves.
Dover having problems at busy times because it takes longer to process coachfuls of people since B....
All agreed ?
Super

Seems logical

 

[Glandwr]

It would greatly help at peak times for coach travel by groups of young people if the young peoples group passport, that became unacceptable 2 years ago, were brought back.

But I can't see it being without huge political repercussions here.

It would solve the problem at a stroke. Instead of up to 80 having to get off the coach and be checked individually. One person, a teacher or representative, would have hopped off and showed one document.

It would also reinstate the reciprocal lucrative tourist trade coming the other way of school and college groups. Apparently that dropped to a trickle because the continentals wouldn't buy expensive passports for their kids simply for a week's trip to the UK.

 

[alcam]

It would greatly help at peak times for coach travel by groups of young people if the young peoples group passport, that became unacceptable 2 years ago, were brought back.

But I can't see it being without huge political repercussions here.

It would solve the problem at a stroke. Instead of up to 80 having to get off the coach and be checked individually. One person, a teacher or representative, would have hopped off and showed one document.

It would also reinstate the reciprocal lucrative tourist trade coming the other way of school and college groups. Apparently that dropped to a trickle because the continentals wouldn't buy expensive passports for their kids simply for a week's trip to the UK.

More than a trickle of the little shi , sorry , darlings clogging the pavements of Edinburgh recently

 

[marchie]

It would greatly help at peak times for coach travel by groups of young people if the young peoples group passport, that became unacceptable 2 years ago, were brought back.

But I can't see it being without huge political repercussions here.

It would solve the problem at a stroke. Instead of up to 80 having to get off the coach and be checked individually. One person, a teacher or representative, would have hopped off and showed one document.

It would also reinstate the reciprocal lucrative tourist trade coming the other way of school and college groups. Apparently that dropped to a trickle because the continentals wouldn't buy expensive passports for their kids simply for a week's trip to the UK.

It's not external political repercussions; it's a simple process of UK Government going back to EU and asking to reopen talks on the UK's refusal of the EU 2017 Offer not to treat UK as a Third Country for Travel Arrangements. There are various elements of the Withdrawal Agreement that are required to be reviewed/renegotiated periodically [which is why ****** can never be really 'Done', it will be like non setting mastic ...]

The NI Protocol has been revised [and a measure of trust re-established in UK Government after the earlier mistrust], so that provides the base on which to build. Difficulties arise with the two UK main political parties and their fear of upsetting/defending the Red Wall voters

But the Group Passport approach is impossible under existing arrangements

Steve

 

[Fisherman]

It's not external political repercussions; it's a simple process of UK Government going back to EU and asking to reopen talks on the UK's refusal of the EU 2017 Offer not to treat UK as a Third Country for Travel Arrangements. There are various elements of the Withdrawal Agreement that are required to be reviewed/renegotiated periodically [which is why ****** can never be really 'Done', it will be like non setting mastic ...]

The NI Protocol has been revised [and a measure of trust re-established in UK Government after the earlier mistrust], so that provides the base on which to build. Difficulties arise with the two UK main political parties and their fear of upsetting/defending the Red Wall voters

But the Group Passport approach is impossible under existing arrangements

Steve

Its time that this mess was sorted out, having people waiting up to 18 hours at a port waiting to go through passport control is simply not good enough. The way I see this things have to change, leaving things as they are hoping they will improve is not an option. And the status quo is not an option. Anyone with a modicum of common sense must realise that when a passport check is taking up to 10 times longer than what went before that this will create issues, and these issues are there for all to see. Pretending that nothing has changed, burying our heads in the sand, is not a solution. “Houston we have a problem, “ now let’s find a solution.

 

[barryd]

The obvious solution is to re-join the single market. I appreciate this wont be popular with some but I think its inevitable eventually. Not trying to be political of course but it would solve a lot of problems overnight including travel problems, free movement of goods and services and of course people which we desperately need. Things have changed dramatically in the past few years. Perhaps Nigel Farages big ****** sell from many years ago where he stated "Wouldnt it be great if we were like Norway" now makes sense.

 

[marchie]

Its time that this mess was sorted out, having people waiting up to 18 hours at a port waiting to go through passport control is simply not good enough. The way I see this things have to change, leaving things as they are hoping they will improve is not an option. And the status quo is not an option. Anyone with a modicum of common sense must realise that when a passport check is taking up to 10 times longer than what went before that this will create issues, and these issues are there for all to see. Pretending that nothing has changed, burying our heads in the sand, is not a solution. “Houston we have a problem, “ now let’s find a solution.

This is going to lead to the Thread straying into the political, not least because there is likely to be a flurry of 'It;s the French being awkward' responses, the line peddled by a succession of UK Government Ministers up until the point at which the NI Protocol was revised and Mr Sunak praised the revision by pointing out that N. Ireland enjoyed the benefits of the Single Market and being in UK ...

The French are not being awkward, they are controlling the EU Border in accordance with UK instructions, which results in UK, who never gave up control of its Borders during EU Membership, now giving up control in the guise of taking back control. The Agreement can remain in force and the Brits can continue to queue, as Simon Calder expressed it so eloquently, 'with the emotional comfort of a Blue Passport' [printed in Poland by a French Company, because UK Government took away control from De La Rue in NE England].

Steve

 

[Fisherman]

The obvious solution is to re-join the single market. I appreciate this wont be popular with some but I think its inevitable eventually. Not trying to be political of course but it would solve a lot of problems overnight including travel problems, free movement of goods and services and of course people which we desperately need. Things have changed dramatically in the past few years. Perhaps Nigel Farages big ****** sell from many years ago where he stated "Wouldnt it be great if we were like Norway" now makes sense.

This is straying into territory we voted to avoid Barry.
You know my feelings about what happened, but as I much as I agree with your sentiments, this is what we voted for.
I reckon we need to wait a decent length of time before we consider such changes, and I don't reckon we have reached that time yet.
Respecting the vote and monitoring its affects is paramount.
But burying our heads in the sand, pretending everything is OK cannot last forever.
But I don't reckon I will be around when the time comes, if ever.

 

[barryd]

This is straying into territory we voted to avoid Barry.
You know my feelings about what happened, but as I much as I agree with your sentiments, this is what we voted for.
I reckon we need to wait a decent length of time before we consider such changes, and I don't reckon we have reached that time yet.
Respecting the vote and monitoring its affects is paramount.
But burying our heads in the sand, pretending everything is OK cannot last forever.
But I don't reckon I will be around when the time comes, if ever.

Some say Sunaks Windsor agreement was the first step towards this. In the total absence of any post ****** plan whatsoever for a new direction for the UK I cant see any reason against closer alignment. I dont see why waiting "a decent length of time" before considering such changes needs to happen either. I also dont reckon that either of the two main political parties has any intention of "doing" anything with ****** other than trying to make it work as if we were still members so why make it harder for ourselves?

It would be a popular decision for motorhomers I reckon. All our issues with bleeding Schengen calculators and faffing about trying to work out how to get more than 90 days in Europe solved overnight. I think its inevitable so why wait?

 

[marchie]

Some say Sunaks Windsor agreement was the first step towards this. In the total absence of any post ****** plan whatsoever for a new direction for the UK I cant see any reason against closer alignment. I dont see why waiting "a decent length of time" before considering such changes needs to happen either. I also dont reckon that either of the two main political parties has any intention of "doing" anything with ****** other than trying to make it work as if we were still members so why make it harder for ourselves?

It would be a popular decision for motorhomers I reckon. All our issues with bleeding Schengen calculators and faffing about trying to work out how to get more than 90 days in Europe solved overnight. I think its inevitable so why wait?

It's not inevitable. There is political opposition from the 2 main UK Parties and they have large numbers of supporters who believe that being out of the EU is preferable, and it's all the fault of the EU if it isn't because 'we were ruled by Brussels', which is the exact opposite of true. The convenience of a few hundred thousand motorhomers and caravanners counts for nothing [and not all Motorhomers/Caravanners would want to reverse the decision to leave the EU]

If we err massively on the side of caution, and assume 1 million Motorhomers/Caravanners would vote to reverse the 2016 Referendum, that's less than 3% of the electorate

Steve

 

[barryd]

It's not inevitable. There is political opposition from the 2 main UK Parties and they have large numbers of supporters who believe that being out of the EU is preferable, and it's all the fault of the EU if it isn't because 'we were ruled by Brussels', which is the exact opposite of true. The convenience of a few hundred thousand motorhomers and caravanners counts for nothing [and not all Motorhomers/Caravanners would want to reverse the decision to leave the EU]

If we err massively on the side of caution, and assume 1 million Motorhomers/Caravanners would vote to reverse the 2016 Referendum, that's less than 3% of the electorate

Steve

I never said anything about rejoining the EU though. What I meant was closer alignment is now inevitable. If that is going to be the case then we may as well just stop all the pain and rejoin the Single Market as "None EU members". Like Farage said. "Would it be so terrible if we were like Norway". I cited motorhomers as its a no brainer for us but its a no brainer for business, all travellers and certainly employers and most of all productivity which is what we desperately need to increase.

Both main political parties are obviously finding it difficult to state this bleeding obvious solution of course as they are afraid it will lose them votes. I'm really not sure it will anymore. Ironically it may well be the Tories that break ranks first some say.

 

[Fisherman]

I never said anything about rejoining the EU though. What I meant was closer alignment is now inevitable. If that is going to be the case then we may as well just stop all the pain and rejoin the Single Market as "None EU members". Like Farage said. "Would it be so terrible if we were like Norway". I cited motorhomers as its a no brainer for us but its a no brainer for business, all travellers and certainly employers and most of all productivity which is what we desperately need to increase.

Both main political parties are obviously finding it difficult to state this bleeding obvious solution of course as they are afraid it will lose them votes. I'm really not sure it will anymore. Ironically it may well be the Tories that break ranks first some say.

I think our situation in many ways underlines how uninformed we ALL were when voting. I mean why would people who enjoyed unlimited travel throughout the EU vote to stop doing so. Who was aware of this when voting, I wasn’t.
And I was ignorant of many other issues, which are now apparent.

I reckon eventually for all the reasons you state and more, we will re enter the SM and the CU. But it won’t happen if ever for many years. It will take years for the political will to be there, and years of negotiations with the EU for this to happen.
And as marchie stated this is not a definite, far from it.

 

[marchie]

I never said anything about rejoining the EU though. What I meant was closer alignment is now inevitable. If that is going to be the case then we may as well just stop all the pain and rejoin the Single Market as "None EU members". Like Farage said. "Would it be so terrible if we were like Norway". I cited motorhomers as its a no brainer for us but its a no brainer for business, all travellers and certainly employers and most of all productivity which is what we desperately need to increase.

Both main political parties are obviously finding it difficult to state this bleeding obvious solution of course as they are afraid it will lose them votes. I'm really not sure it will anymore. Ironically it may well be the Tories that break ranks first some say.

To return to the 'no passports' status, there would need to be a UK decision to request the EU to change the existing arrangements, and that would almost certainly involve another Referendum [EU needs to be certain that any request would not be changed by the next change of Government, and there is a related precedent for this process in the Copenhagen Treaty].

The EU would need to agree a request to either rejoin the Single Market [unlikely, given that the two main UK political parties are against the idea, so why would the EU waste time talking about doing something that UK rejected over 5 years ago? The EU has a 'Day Job' to return to, rather than waste time talking to a State that has just left the organisation, and which made specific counter proposals to curtail Freedom of Movement? BTW, the Home Office has confirmed today, after a 12 months search, that it has no evidence that the Small Boats arrivals are mainly economic refugees, despite 2 Home Secretaries and an Immigration Minister claiming otherwise ...

A variety of UK Tourist Organisations have commented today that the Passport requirement or European Visitors has caused severe damage to UK Tourism, especially amongst the French and German Visitors; and the wider post ****** Regs have prevented UK Budgie and Canary Breeders from exporting their birds to Europe, prompting fears that the gene pool will diminish, and that rare breeds of UK canaries will become extinct

A Norway Agreement has been ruled out [mainly by Norway]

In short, the EU has more pressing issues than to be bothered with more changes at the behest of UK, even if the latter were to request them. So we must continue to queue, to cope with 90 days, with or without the flexing of the EU Schengen Stay Calculator, and to accept the adverse economic impact of the 2016 Referendum decision

Steve