Dale Farm

I wonder if some of us would be quite so righteous about legal principles if wildcamping was ever outlawed....
 
It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. - Bertrand Russell
 
Pollik said:
It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. - Bertrand Russell
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...who won the Nobel Prize for championing freedom of thought. Thank goodness we all have that freedom... even if some of us (me, for instance) don't always think the right things! ;)


"Now, what I want is, facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!" Mr Gradgrind explaining his educational philosophy in 'Hard Times'.
 
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Pollik said:
Nice try Fairytooth. The fact is that it is my opinion that folks here are having way too much fun. It is a bit like watching muslim fundamentalists discussing with evangelists the merits of their respective beliefs, in a Mike Tyson/Rocky Marciano kind of way. ;)





Polly
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LOL ..... well at least I tried! As a graduate of criminology, jurisprudence and law I can promise you the answers are still out there waiting to be found. The expression 'armchair detectives' comes to mind but hey ho, whatever. It is interesting to see we have no shortage of opinions.
 
Opinions

fairytooth said:
It is interesting to see we have no shortage of opinions.
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I'm cleaning this up somewhat...

Opinions are like noses - we all have them!

So, I guess we should all pick our opinions, people...
 
Dale Farm; How long before the site will be returned to greenfield?

But given that the travelers still own the land, presumably they can move back at some stage, perhaps with more temporary caravans this time. Then the process would have to start all over again. I don't know what the terms of the eviction were.
 
Firefox said:
Dale Farm; How long before the site will be returned to greenfield?

But given that the travelers still own the land, presumably they can move back at some stage, perhaps with more temporary caravans this time. Then the process would have to start all over again. I don't know what the terms of the eviction were.
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They're interesting points. Even if the site is returned to greenfield, there's no guarantee that it won't get developed. The NPPF could see to that.

Presumably, you can't trespass on land you own.... and you have a right to go onto it. It's what you do on it that matters. Watch that space, I guess.
 
Northerner said:
Unlike you with your Texas/Massachusetts example I do not pluck figures out of the air. This is a link from the Daily Telegraph, and before you start sneering about Telegraph and Daily Mail readers, the article quotes Home Office figures.

Convicted murderers who were set free to kill - Telegraph

In the ten years previous to this 2007 report, 30 released killers went on to kill again. Perhaps you can now show me how many proven wrongful homicide convictions there were in that same period?

You claim that my wanting to exclude some murders is contemptible. No it isn't. Certain US inner city areas are war zones controlled by gangs and drug dealers and I'll be the first to admit that some of these people are not deterred by the death penalty. My point is though that this situation is akin to citing Iraq's murder rate with that of Holland and I repeat, that the murder rate per thousand in the USA is lower than in many European countries if you exclude its black on black killing in a number of inner city areas. Yes, a murder is a murder but most people are able to see the difference between murders in gang controlled, drug infested inner cities and the rest of the North American continent.

But what I find most staggering is the suggestion that people are not deterred by the prospect of losing their own life. We all accept that there are a few who are mad or psychotic but claiming that no one would be deterred by the death penalty is absurd! Victor gives just one example of the boy who killed a young girl for a free breakfast.

Hanging the wrong person does not help the victim but the chances of hanging the wrong person are slight nowadays, especially with modern DNA testing. But what hanging will do is save the lives of many other people who will not be murdered because criminals will think twice before pulling the trigger or even carrying a gun.

I note that you also skip over my point about people serving life without parole killing again. Killing prison officers and other inmates because they have nothing to lose! But what do the deaths of a few warders and other criminals matter as long as we can continue the great liberal experiment?

I shall not post on this subject any more as we're going nowhere but I will finish by saying that not all pro-death penalty advocates are some kind of red-neck backwoods' men. Many people are intelligent and like me, have given this matter careful thought after weighing the evidence. It is my view that the great liberal experiment has failed miserably and those responsible for these policies have the blood of hundreds of innocent victims on their hands. Thirty in ten years just by people released after killing once and God knows how many more by people who would have reconsidered their actions if they'd known that their own life would be forfeited.
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No figures plucked out of the air - all official statistics - and I never said released murderers never murdered again (nor did I deny that murders are committed in prison). Of course these things are true. But who is going to be the one to point to a specific individual and say that because you might do it again we will kill you? Our collective unwillingness to look someone in the eye and say it is the reason why those studies show that if hanging is an option then juries are more willing to aquit - something you avoided addressing. So the short answer is that there will be further murders whether or not we have capital punishment.

As for numbers, I could give you lots but we are talking about people, so let's personalise this. If hanging had been an option, then the following innocent people would be dead: Stephen Downing, Stefan Kizsko, the Birmingham Six, the Maguire Seven, the Guildford Four, the Bridgwater Four, Colin Stagg and Sally Clark - I could go on listing examples all morning.

And as for your touching faith in DNA and other scientific evidence, remember it was scientific evidence that convicted the Birmingham Six. Scientific evidence that was taken as absolute at the time and which was later totally discredited. There are NO absolutes and that is why we should not make any decisions that cannot be reversed. DNA can prove that a person was there but only under very limited circumstances can it come anywhere near proving whether the crime was committed by that person or another. That is why we have juries and as long as juries are composed of people there will be the possibility of them getting it wrong.

And now to the "deterrent" argument. Are you seriously suggesting that someone about to commit murder will pause, think "I'll only get locked away for 15 or 20 years, so I'll pull the trigger - now if they were going to hang me I might reconsider"? It doesn't make sense. Personally, if someone gave me the option of a quick death or a couple of decades being locked up and slowly going mad, I think I'd opt for the quick death. The reality is that the only thing that most murderers think is that they are not going to get caught (and current Home Office statistics suggest that up to 30% of them are right). There were 564 unsolved murders in the UK in the ten years to 2007 (Daily Telgraph figures!). On top of that, the rate of unsolved murders has doubled in those ten years - maybe we should concentrate more on catching murderers than on killing them when we find them. The numbers of repeat murders by those we never find almost certainly dwarfs all other figures you may throw up.
 
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You can camp for 28 days a year legally with permission of the landowner (yourself).

The travelers can generally set up some hardstanding and a bit of drainage at the flick of an eyelid... it's their trade. Maybe some asphalt "left over from the job down the road, Gov". I just wonder what the future holds for that land and what the terms of the eviction were.
 
<<I just wonder what the future holds for that land and what the terms of the eviction were.>>

I've no idea....but I imagine they will now apply for planning permission like their legal neighbours.
I don't see why those applications would be unsuccessful...they have to live somewhere...
 
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