Dale Farm

Oddly, I find myself agreeing with most of what has been said on this thread. As I pointed out on a previous thread on this subject, if anyone breaches planning law they should be prepared for the consequences, whoever they are. On the other hand, the way in which this eviction has been carried out is appalling -as well as almost unbelievably long-winded. Ask yourself what the reaction of the public and the Daily Mail tendency would have been if the people had been local farmers and upstanding members of the W.I. rather than Irish travellers.

I have to disagree, however, with some statements made by Northerner:

1. You don't believe that anyone can buy justice. The examples of the rich being able to buy their way out of trouble would fill a book - from O.J. Simpson to wealthy businessmen who, after being found guilty of fraud, are let out early because they are found to be suffering from Alzheimers -
and then amazingly get better!

2. You suggest that capital punishment should be brought back because the murder rate is higher now than it was in the past. How do you account for the fact that the murder rate in the USA, where they do have capital punishment, is greater than it is here, where we don't?

3. You claim that local councils are inhabited by "left wing jobsworths". In my experience (and I have a lot in this area) most senior officers in local government are closer to Ghengis Khan than that!
 
<<which this eviction has been carried out is appalling >>

Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't.......I really don't pay much attention to the News any more other than specific facts...
why.....because I'm from Northern Ireland and I've seen many many things over the years twisted by the media into something
they were not....for sensational reporting...or to spice up something to make it more 'watchable'...

I've seen peacful protests portrayed as something completely different by the media concentrating solely on one
incident or around one incident to the exclusion of everything else.....turned into a negative against the residents of
one area, or the police, or the orangemen....on the actions of one or two dissenters.....I've been there and when I
later saw it reported on the television it had taken on a completely different reality....it hadn't actually happened as
it had been made appear!

but the damage had been done.....it was on TV so it was the 'truth'!.
 
I hope you're all having a good day, everyone. The weather here is nice - if a bit breezy.

Hope it's good where you are, too... wherever and whoever you are.

Sorry, this is off-topic - but I suppose I started it. Wish I hadn't, somehow.

Sorry.

Take care, all. :wave:
 
John H said:
Oddly, I find myself agreeing with most of what has been said on this thread. As I pointed out on a previous thread on this subject, if anyone breaches planning law they should be prepared for the consequences, whoever they are. On the other hand, the way in which this eviction has been carried out is appalling -as well as almost unbelievably long-winded. Ask yourself what the reaction of the public and the Daily Mail tendency would have been if the people had been local farmers and upstanding members of the W.I. rather than Irish travellers.

I have to disagree, however, with some statements made by Northerner:

1. You don't believe that anyone can buy justice. The examples of the rich being able to buy their way out of trouble would fill a book - from O.J. Simpson to wealthy businessmen who, after being found guilty of fraud, are let out early because they are found to be suffering from Alzheimers -
and then amazingly get better!

2. You suggest that capital punishment should be brought back because the murder rate is higher now than it was in the past. How do you account for the fact that the murder rate in the USA, where they do have capital punishment, is greater than it is here, where we don't?

3. You claim that local councils are inhabited by "left wing jobsworths". In my experience (and I have a lot in this area) most senior officers in local government are closer to Ghengis Khan than that!
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People didn't buy justice.They had good lawyers, which is rather different! Many ordinary people get good lawyers and get off scot free. And are you seriously suggesting that only the rich con the system? Every day I read about some bloke claiming disability and then going hang-gliding! Being dishonest runs across all classes.

Capital punishment only applies in certain US states, not all, and the reason that the murder rate is higher is because some parts of the USA are far more violent. The murder rate in mid-west states for instance is much lower than in London. You can argue all you like about the morality of capital punishment but one thing is glaringly obvious. If people knew that their actions would result in their own execution they would think twice. At present you can murder someone and be out of prison in a few years. There is no doubt that a small minority will never be deterred and I would argue that we're better off without them anyway, but most would.

However, I repeat - the murder rate is many times higher than it was than when we had capital punishment, that cannot be denied! The figures are available for anyone prepared to do five minutes searching.

What is even more appalling is the number of murderers released from prison who go on to kill someone else. I suspect that the families of those victims may well now be all in favour of capital punishment!
 
Northerner said:
People didn't buy justice.They had good lawyers, which is rather different! Many ordinary people get good lawyers and get off scot free. And are you seriously suggesting that only the rich con the system? Every day I read about some bloke claiming disability and then going hang-gliding! Being dishonest runs across all classes.

Capital punishment only applies in certain US states, not all, and the reason that the murder rate is higher is because some parts of the USA are far more violent. The murder rate in mid-west states for instance is much lower than in London. You can argue all you like about the morality of capital punishment but one thing is glaringly obvious. If people knew that their actions would result in their own execution they would think twice. At present you can murder someone and be out of prison in a few years. There is no doubt that a small minority will never be deterred and I would argue that we're better off without them anyway, but most would.

However, I repeat - the murder rate is many times higher than it was than when we had capital punishment, that cannot be denied! The figures are available for anyone prepared to do five minutes searching.

What is even more appalling is the number of murderers released from prison who go on to kill someone else. I suspect that the families of those victims may well now be all in favour of capital punishment!
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No, I am not suggesting that only the rich can con the system - but my reading of your original post was that you were saying that nobody can buy their way out of justice. It was that concept that I was objecting to - and there are many more examples if you want to pursue that line.

"Some parts of the USA are more violent" ???????? What on earth does that mean? Why are there more murders in Texas than in Massechussets when the former has one of the most reactionary approaches to sentencing and the latter has one of the most measured? We could swap statistics all night but it seems to me there are two unanswerable facts here:

1. Human beings make mistakes and so any sentence that can't be reversed is unacceptable. There are literally hundreds of examples of this, including the Birmingham Six.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right - to take someone's life because they took someone else's in my view puts us on the same level as them.

I do, however, agree with you that a convicted murderer should not as a matter of course ever be released to murder again - small though that possibility is.


Btw, the increase in murder rate these days could be put down to a different moral compass. It used to be that authority was respected much more than it is in general these days. I doubt that the figures would be any different if there was still capital punishment - if only because the facts show that most people convicted of murder do not consider the punishment; they either think they will get away with it or they act in the heat of the moment.
 
John H said:
No, I am not suggesting that only the rich can con the system - but my reading of your original post was that you were saying that nobody can buy their way out of justice. It was that concept that I was objecting to - and there are many more examples if you want to pursue that line.

"Some parts of the USA are more violent" ???????? What on earth does that mean? Why are there more murders in Texas than in Massechussets when the former has one of the most reactionary approaches to sentencing and the latter has one of the most measured? We could swap statistics all night but it seems to me there are two unanswerable facts here:

1. Human beings make mistakes and so any sentence that can't be reversed is unacceptable. There are literally hundreds of examples of this, including the Birmingham Six.

2. Two wrongs don't make a right - to take someone's life because they took someone else's in my view puts us on the same level as them.

I do, however, agree with you that a convicted murderer should not as a matter of course ever be released to murder again - small though that possibility is.


Btw, the increase in murder rate these days could be put down to a different moral compass. It used to be that authority was respected much more than it is in general these days. I doubt that the figures would be any different if there was still capital punishment - if only because the facts show that most people convicted of murder do not consider the punishment; they either think they will get away with it or they act in the heat of the moment.
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Two wrongs don't make a right? Take that to its logical conclusion and we wouldn't punish anyone! There are not hundreds of examples of wrongful convictions where the death penalty occurred. There are however, far more examples of convicted killers being paroled and going on to kill again. And yes, a few crimes are done in the heat of the moment but, even with such crimes, the threat of losing their own life may just calm down that heat a little and save some lives. But let's face it, many crimes are deliberate and calculated. They take guns on robberies and, if challenged and facing capture, they will use them and again, innocent people and police officers die because liberals seem to care more for the rights of criminals than for the victims.

As for wrongful convictions I would only execute where there is concrete evidence and with modern scientific methods such as DNA testing, the chances of wrongful convictions are greatly diminished from earlier days.


Back to America - Why are there more murders in Texas than in Massachusetts? If you're taking about numbers Massachusetts has 6 million people and Texas has 25 million. There is also the view that the states with the biggest problems of inner city violence keep the death penalty because of that. The murder rate in Texas for instance may well rocket if the death penalty was abolished. It's like comparing Holland with Iraq! Iraq has the death penalty but of course it's a far more violent country and without it the murder rate may be much higher. And Texas and Massachusetts are almost as different as Holland and Iraq in terms of culture, inner city problems etc.

There's a very interesting statistic about the USA which is: America has a huge problem with black on black killings in its inner cities. Drugs and the gang culture are the main culprits. If you take murders by inner-city blacks out of the equation the US homicide rate is lower than that of most European countries. This is not being racist, it is simply a fact!

No matter how you dress it up there is one other simple and inescapable fact - most people would be deterred from killing someone if they knew that by doing so they faced losing their own lives. It is another inescapable fact that if someone is executed they cannot kill again.

You talk about imprisoning murderers for life. But they still kill even if they are imprisoned for life! There are numerous examples of prison guards dying at the hands of people serving life without parole who have nothing to lose by killing again. The are numerous examples of other prisoners being killed by those lifers with nothing to lose. Why do many liberals never seem to show concern for the victims of these people who kill again and again?

Many liberals that I encounter seem more concerned with appeasing their own consciences than they are of protecting innocent lives.
 
The death penalty does more than deter murderers. Murder can be a special crime in that it is committed by people for whom the consequence is unimportant. People who are in the grip of extreme emotion or who are insane or who kill for idealogical reasons will not be deterred by any punishment.

During my lifetime murder has gone from being a rare and dreadful incident into a crime which has become commonplace. We have always had criminals who will go as far as they dare in committing their crimes but when we had the death penalty very few were prepared to hazard their own precious necks by killing their victims. Nowadays, guns and knives are routinely carried; elderly women are killed for the contents of their purses; I need not go on. These are the people deterred by the death sentence - the restraint we once had is no longer there and we are paying for it. The violent crime rate has soared.

An authoritative source says that rate of violent crime in the USA is one quarter of the violent crime rate in the UK. I believe him.

Violent Crime Rate in USA - YouTube
 
Northerner said:
This is not being racist, it is simply a fact!
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Well, there you are, then. It's a fact, so it's incontrovertible. Statistics you can argue with. You can't argue with a fact. A fact is simply that... a fact. Like death is a fact (of life, paradoxically), or that nothing is faster than the speed of light (maybe!) Even fiction is a fact, 'cos enough people read it.

My lack of tact is a fact. So is my left big toe-nail.

Fact is... I'm tired and I'm going to bed. It's another day tomorrow... and that's a fact. Or I hope it is, anyway.

Goodnight. :sleep-040:
 
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<<People who are in the grip of extreme emotion or who are insane or who kill for idealogical reasons will not be deterred by any punishment.>>

Agreed....possibly not....certainly they will think about it at some point which just might...I say might make them think again before the point of no return.....but it will very likely stop people killing their girlfriend for a free breakfast.


<<Nowadays, guns and knives are routinely carried; elderly women are killed for the contents of their purses; I need not go on>>

Agreed...they think that if it all goes wrong and they kill someone..so what...they be out in 10 years or so on parole...all they have to do is convince the board they are remorseful.....unfortunately MOST people will do anything if the price is high enough, or the risk low enough.


Human nature doesn't change....this was written over 2000 years ago....what makes people think they know better and can change things?

Some do all the mischief they can by force and violence, as roaring lions, and not only by fraud and insinuation, as subtle serpents: They are violent men, that do all by rapine and oppression, that shut their eyes, meditating with the closest intention and application of mind to devise forward things, to contrive how they may do the greatest mischief to their neighbour, to do it effectually and yet securely to themselves.

(Quote from the New Testament)..
 
Northerner said:
Two wrongs don't make a right? Take that to its logical conclusion and we wouldn't punish anyone! There are not hundreds of examples of wrongful convictions where the death penalty occurred. There are however, far more examples of convicted killers being paroled and going on to kill again. And yes, a few crimes are done in the heat of the moment but, even with such crimes, the threat of losing their own life may just calm down that heat a little and save some lives. But let's face it, many crimes are deliberate and calculated. They take guns on robberies and, if challenged and facing capture, they will use them and again, innocent people and police officers die because liberals seem to care more for the rights of criminals than for the victims.

As for wrongful convictions I would only execute where there is concrete evidence and with modern scientific methods such as DNA testing, the chances of wrongful convictions are greatly diminished from earlier days.


Back to America - Why are there more murders in Texas than in Massachusetts? If you're taking about numbers Massachusetts has 6 million people and Texas has 25 million. There is also the view that the states with the biggest problems of inner city violence keep the death penalty because of that. The murder rate in Texas for instance may well rocket if the death penalty was abolished. It's like comparing Holland with Iraq! Iraq has the death penalty but of course it's a far more violent country and without it the murder rate may be much higher. And Texas and Massachusetts are almost as different as Holland and Iraq in terms of culture, inner city problems etc.

There's a very interesting statistic about the USA which is: America has a huge problem with black on black killings in its inner cities. Drugs and the gang culture are the main culprits. If you take murders by inner-city blacks out of the equation the US homicide rate is lower than that of most European countries. This is not being racist, it is simply a fact!

No matter how you dress it up there is one other simple and inescapable fact - most people would be deterred from killing someone if they knew that by doing so they faced losing their own lives. It is another inescapable fact that if someone is executed they cannot kill again.

You talk about imprisoning murderers for life. But they still kill even if they are imprisoned for life! There are numerous examples of prison guards dying at the hands of people serving life without parole who have nothing to lose by killing again. The are numerous examples of other prisoners being killed by those lifers with nothing to lose. Why do many liberals never seem to show concern for the victims of these people who kill again and again?

Many liberals that I encounter seem more concerned with appeasing their own consciences than they are of protecting innocent lives.
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I believe in punishment; I do not believe in taking life - that is clearly where we differ and I am glad that you can tell when someone is guilty with concrete evidence and when they are only guilty with flimsy evidence. That is not the way our legal system works. Convictions are only supposed to happen when there is no reasonable doubt but because every other human being than yourself is fallable we sometimes get it wrong. And don't forget that it has been shown that juries are more likely to aquit if they think someone will be sent to his/her death, so the argument about putting murderers back on the street works both ways.

Your claim that there are more released murderers who murder again than there are wrongful convictions has no basis in fact.

I do admit that I should not have said that there are more murders in Texas than Massachussets - I should have said the murder rate is higher in Texas. As for you wanting to exclude some murders in order to make the figures justify your case, I cannot tell you how contemptable I find that. Every life lost is of the same value in my book and I don't care whether the crime is black on black, white on white or green on purple.

Your "inescapable fact" that most people would be deterred again has no basis in fact. It may be your opinion but it certainly is not a fact.

And as for liberals caring more about criminals than victims - well, that argument is usually the last refuge of the hang-em-flog-em brigade who cannot justify their case in any other way. I care very much about victims but treating the criminal in the same barbaric way that he treated the victim belittles us all - and there is no justification for hanging the wrong person. How does that help the victim?
 
maureenandtom said:
An authoritative source says that rate of violent crime in the USA is one quarter of the violent crime rate in the UK. I believe him.
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Homicide rate in the UK - about 1.5 per 100,000 people.
Homicide rate in the USA - about 5.0 per 100,000 people.

Now THOSE are facts!
 
One can manipulate the statistics either way to show either capital punishment is a deterrent, or it is not, depending on which ones you quote. US has much more liberal gun control laws so direct comparison is tricky. Also things vary hugely from state to state there.

But whichever stats you choose, capital punishment is morally wrong and there has been multiple cases where later evidence has shown a convicted murderer was innocent. Therefore it can never be justified. That's why the more advanced countries in the world, and the more advanced states in the US have abandoned it.
 
Firefox said:
capital punishment is morally wrong
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I'm sorry I cannot agree - on the grounds on human nature. Certainly we should do the absolute best possible using
all the technology at our disposal to ensure a rightful conviction. In my opinion the rest is irrelevant because it can
be argued about indefinitely and the person/s to whom we are referring to don't give a damn about what is morally wrong.
 
Hey, back on subject .... I've heard there might be a good wilding site becoming available near there.

Any ideas peeps?
 
John H said:
I believe in punishment; I do not believe in taking life - that is clearly where we differ and I am glad that you can tell when someone is guilty with concrete evidence and when they are only guilty with flimsy evidence. That is not the way our legal system works. Convictions are only supposed to happen when there is no reasonable doubt but because every other human being than yourself is fallable we sometimes get it wrong. And don't forget that it has been shown that juries are more likely to aquit if they think someone will be sent to his/her death, so the argument about putting murderers back on the street works both ways.

Your claim that there are more released murderers who murder again than there are wrongful convictions has no basis in fact.

I do admit that I should not have said that there are more murders in Texas than Massachussets - I should have said the murder rate is higher in Texas. As for you wanting to exclude some murders in order to make the figures justify your case, I cannot tell you how contemptable I find that. Every life lost is of the same value in my book and I don't care whether the crime is black on black, white on white or green on purple.

Your "inescapable fact" that most people would be deterred again has no basis in fact. It may be your opinion but it certainly is not a fact.

And as for liberals caring more about criminals than victims - well, that argument is usually the last refuge of the hang-em-flog-em brigade who cannot justify their case in any other way. I care very much about victims but treating the criminal in the same barbaric way that he treated the victim belittles us all - and there is no justification for hanging the wrong person. How does that help the victim?
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Unlike you with your Texas/Massachusetts example I do not pluck figures out of the air. This is a link from the Daily Telegraph, and before you start sneering about Telegraph and Daily Mail readers, the article quotes Home Office figures.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540632/Convicted-murderers-who-were-set-free-to-kill.html

In the ten years previous to this 2007 report, 30 released killers went on to kill again. Perhaps you can now show me how many proven wrongful homicide convictions there were in that same period?

You claim that my wanting to exclude some murders is contemptible. No it isn't. Certain US inner city areas are war zones controlled by gangs and drug dealers and I'll be the first to admit that some of these people are not deterred by the death penalty. My point is though that this situation is akin to citing Iraq's murder rate with that of Holland and I repeat, that the murder rate per thousand in the USA is lower than in many European countries if you exclude its black on black killing in a number of inner city areas. Yes, a murder is a murder but most people are able to see the difference between murders in gang controlled, drug infested inner cities and the rest of the North American continent.

But what I find most staggering is the suggestion that people are not deterred by the prospect of losing their own life. We all accept that there are a few who are mad or psychotic but claiming that no one would be deterred by the death penalty is absurd! Victor gives just one example of the boy who killed a young girl for a free breakfast.

Hanging the wrong person does not help the victim but the chances of hanging the wrong person are slight nowadays, especially with modern DNA testing. But what hanging will do is save the lives of many other people who will not be murdered because criminals will think twice before pulling the trigger or even carrying a gun.

I note that you also skip over my point about people serving life without parole killing again. Killing prison officers and other inmates because they have nothing to lose! But what do the deaths of a few warders and other criminals matter as long as we can continue the great liberal experiment?

I shall not post on this subject any more as we're going nowhere but I will finish by saying that not all pro-death penalty advocates are some kind of red-neck backwoods' men. Many people are intelligent and like me, have given this matter careful thought after weighing the evidence. It is my view that the great liberal experiment has failed miserably and those responsible for these policies have the blood of hundreds of innocent victims on their hands. Thirty in ten years just by people released after killing once and God knows how many more by people who would have reconsidered their actions if they'd known that their own life would be forfeited.
 
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fairytooth said:
Hey, back on subject .... I've heard there might be a good wilding site becoming available near there.

Any ideas peeps?
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Nice try Fairytooth. The fact is that it is my opinion that folks here are having way too much fun. It is a bit like watching muslim fundamentalists discussing with evangelists the merits of their respective beliefs, in a Mike Tyson/Rocky Marciano kind of way. ;)





Polly
 
MartianTom said:
Even fiction is a fact, 'cos enough people read it.
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For instance, did you realise that people from all over the world still write to Sherlock Holmes at 221b Baker Street? Now, even if he had existed and was still kicking around, he'd be over 150 years old by now. I'm sorry, no... even if his telomeres had been as long as this thread, I don't think he'd have made it quite this far. Not the way he smoked that pipe. Notwithstanding this is the fact (that word again) that advances in fingerprinting, DNA profiling and forensic science have long superseded his magnifying glass - even if we still end up convicting the wrong people far too often (something Holmes never did) and sometimes needlessly putting them to death (though thankfully not in this country).

What this goes to prove as an indisputable fact, I think, is the extraordinary power of a combination of a highly creative imagination and the written word to persuade and convince otherwise intelligent people to believe in pure fantasy.

You can read into that whatever you like.
 
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