Covenants against parking motorhome on drives.

[molly 2]

I think it would difficult to find modern house without a parking covernent ,usually somone complains and the covernent is enforced giving 2 weeks to remove the vehicle, the covernent is written in the deeds

 

[marchie]

Surely this is a must know from the estate agents questions when looking.

You are joking, Kev. The Estate Agent's representative is present to show the property, not to know anything about boundaries/covenants and related matters. Tbf, most properties will be subject to a mortgage, so the Title Deeds/Land Certificate or Charge Certificate will be held by the Lender against the security of the property. And the interpretation of the boundaries/covenants/rights of way etc are the professional responsibility of solicitors/licensed conveyancers.

Steve

 

[molly 2]

These days you would be lucky to meet your solicitor just emails then a big bill .you don't get deeds these days .

 

[ricc]

As properties are sold Deeds are now copied and held electronically by land registry, so there is no need for physically deeds to be kept......llast i heard land registry was 12 months behind in llogging sales

 

[Thistle]

I owned a terraced Victorian house in Kent that had a covenants requiring maintenance of the Gas lighting in the back alley...
Where we live now there are covenants to allow access for neighbours to maintain their surface water drains that go across our field, to date that’s never happened which is most inconsiderate of them because the water keeps my pond topped up

We have two vans and two cars on the drive at the moment no parking related covenants but a neighbour did ask when this van that I had been working on would be going during lockdown no idea why!

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Judges have to be aware of precedent and if they aren't aware then lawyers will certainly make them aware to reinforce of their case. I doubt you'd see conflicting decisions on something as black and white as 'is a motorhome a caravan', ,(took me a lot of digging to find ONE!) I wouldn't have been concerned anyway had it not been for the V5 description as motor caravan.
Personally Steve, it's put my mind at rest re purchasing a house with a covenant against parking a caravan on the drive.

Self builds often get classed as "van with windows" by DVLA now.

 

[QFour]

We went to look at a new house a couple of months ago. Asked about parking MH on driveway and told categorically it was not allowed. The salesperson also stated with great delight that they had court proceedings on going against someone with a caravan and they also had court proceedings on going against two people who had built larger sheds than the 6 x 4 you were allowed. They also said there would be landscaping and a large lake and this would be maintained by a management company. We already have one of those so we wandered off.

 

[marchie]

These days you would be lucky to meet your solicitor just emails then a big bill .you don't get deeds these days .

I think it still depends on the area of the country where the property is; the original 1925 Land Regstration Act envisaged a rapid replacement of Title Deeds by Land Certificates, but this diluted to, eventually, IIRC 'when the property next changes hands'. The Ridings of Yorkshire were an anomaly, and different rules applied to land registration, and the Scottish system has now moved to Land/Charge Certificates, but there are still lots of properties where the Title Deeds are recorded in the Register of Sasines and similar. Registers of Scotland require the Scottish equivalent of a Land Certificate/Charge Certificate upon sale/change of ownership, but there may still be a need [as with our Flat] to obtain pre-registration Deeds and Documents for full explanations of rights and responsibilities and boundary delineations, especially Common Areas where all Owners have equal rights of access and equal liability for maintenance and repairs

Or, as Dougie Timmis, who worked in the West Bromwich branch [accent like Frank Skinner, but at 16 2/3rpm], and who taught on the Bank's 'Security Procedures Course', said over about 90 seconds, 'This morning we're going to be talking about land ...[10 seconds pause]; now land is one of the most complex ...[15 seconds pause], but interesting [10 seconds pause], subjects that a Securities Clerk can deal with [10 seconds pause]; well, I think it is, any road ....'

Steve

 

[JQB]

Our house is currently up for sale and we're looking at moving into a more urban setting. I've become aware that a lot of properties have covenants against the parking of caravans on the drive. Although we wont ever own a caravan we will want to park our MH on the drive so my question essentially relates to the definition of a caravan and the fact that the V5s typically refer to our MHs as 'motor caravans'. With the above in mind does anyone know of any case law pertaining to whether or not a MH has been proved or disproved to be a 'caravan' by a judge?

Our house is currently up for sale and we're looking at moving into a more urban setting. I've become aware that a lot of properties have covenants against the parking of caravans on the drive. Although we wont ever own a caravan we will want to park our MH on the drive so my question essentially relates to the definition of a caravan and the fact that the V5s typically refer to our MHs as 'motor caravans'. With the above in mind does anyone know of any case law pertaining to whether or not a MH has been proved or disproved to be a 'caravan' by a judge?

Caravan, motor caravan , it's a caravan.
But if u self converted a PV, given the DVLC's incompetance it wouls be a van with windows - sorted.

 

[JQB]

My Sister had a house in a development like that. The local planning rules dictate that there must be no more than one parking space per property (supposedly to discourage car ownership and promote use of public transport).
Obviously these kind of rules get ignored and every bit of road space is taken up with parked cars including around the little roundabouts in the estate.
No Caravans or Motorhomes I noticed but probably because finding a space to put one would be impossible (the driveways are also very short and couldn't be used to park one - I had a LWB Transporter, so approx 5.4M long and that overhung the pavement a bit when I was parked right up to the garage door).
The house was fine but I would hate to live there.5

You can mod the garage door either by moving it further into the garage, so less space in there for your valuable stored junk, or modding the door itself for the van nose to project into.
Parking on the footway could lead to trouble from pram, buggy, wheellchair users and council.

 

[merl]

Caravan, motor caravan , it's a caravan.
But if u self converted a PV, given the DVLC's incompetance it wouls be a van with windows - sorted.

Please see post 21.
A high court judge decided that a MH isn't a caravan, anyone claiming that it was would have to overturn that decision and the subsequent appeal which also came to the same conclusion.
The most significant deciding factor is that caravans can't move under their own power, motorhomes CAN and therefore are NOT caravans despite the description on the V5.
Sorted

 

[Val54]

Its perhaps worth summing up at lot of conflated views on what issues revolve around covenants ......

Firstly #merl is absolutely correct that in english law, a motorhome or any powered camper is not a caravan. That earlier decision hasn't been tested or overturned.
In planning terms, local councils can, through their local plans, require some or all new housing to have a minimum or maximum number of parking spaces. That can only be enforced by the local council and if they imposed a planning condition with that restriction at the time of granting planning permission.
Moving onto restrictive covenants which are entirely seperate from planning. Most covenants either derive from restrictions imposed by the original lord of the manor, passed onto subsequent landowners e.g mineral rights, or by the developer of the land. #Merl is concerned with the latter. Most developers will insert restrictive covenants to be able to control their site until they have finished building. As in #47, the selling agents are at least morally bound to disclose these to prospective purchasers.
If the developer has finished the site amd does not retain any legal interest in it, then covenant restrictions on parking etc cannot be enforced by anyone else because you have to have a legal interest in the property where the transgression occurs. The situation is different where there is shared ownership or a management company who will have a legal interest.
Self-help is the answer, check with the Land Registry on line for a small fee, the result will tell you if there are are restrictions, although you will have to pay extra to view them. This follows the abandonment of deeds in house sales as per #Marchie's post. There will be occasions with older houses that haven't been sold after the Act came into force where, in orde to sell, the deeds will have to be sent to the Land Registry for first registration when any covenants will be recorded.

 

[marchie]

Please see post 21.
A high court judge decided that a MH isn't a caravan, anyone claiming that it was would have to overturn that decision and the subsequent appeal which also came to the same conclusion.
The most significant deciding factor is that caravans can't move under their own power, motorhomes CAN and therefore are NOT caravans despite the description on the V5.
Sorted

Its perhaps worth summing up at lot of conflated views on what issues revolve around covenants ......

Firstly #merl is absolutely correct that in english law, a motorhome or any powered camper is not a caravan. That earlier decision hasn't been tested or overturned.
In planning terms, local councils can, through their local plans, require some or all new housing to have a minimum or maximum number of parking spaces. That can only be enforced by the local council and if they imposed a planning condition with that restriction at the time of granting planning permission.
Moving onto restrictive covenants which are entirely seperate from planning. Most covenants either derive from restrictions imposed by the original lord of the manor, passed onto subsequent landowners e.g mineral rights, or by the developer of the land. #Merl is concerned with the latter. Most developers will insert restrictive covenants to be able to control their site until they have finished building. As in #47, the selling agents are at least morally bound to disclose these to prospective purchasers.
If the developer has finished the site amd does not retain any legal interest in it, then covenant restrictions on parking etc cannot be enforced by anyone else because you have to have a legal interest in the property where the transgression occurs. The situation is different where there is shared ownership or a management company who will have a legal interest.
Self-help is the answer, check with the Land Registry on line for a small fee, the result will tell you if there are are restrictions, although you will have to pay extra to view them. This follows the abandonment of deeds in house sales as per #Marchie's post. There will be occasions with older houses that haven't been sold after the Act came into force where, in orde to sell, the deeds will have to be sent to the Land Registry for first registration when any covenants will be recorded.

I think your terminology might be slightly awry; the covenants are [scratches head and removes splinters] classed as equitable interests, rather than legal interests, but will often be legally enforceable via the Courts. Using the Local Authority as an example, the Local Planning Laws may forbid parking of, say, caravans on a housing estate. The Council has no legal interest in the properties that are subject to this Covenant, but it will have a right to take legal action under the Local Planning Laws, for those who transgress

There is a very lengthy post on a Forum where Motorhomers are alleged to have fun of a case where Worthing Council made a complete mess of an Enforcement against a M/Homer whose vehicle was deemed to be illegally parked, but where it transpired that the vehicle had broken down and the delivery of spare parts had been delayed [by COVID?]. The Council's Solicitor was deemed to be overly heavy handed, acting ultra vires, and was described by the Tribunal Chairperson of the Appeal Panel in very unflattering terms. Which goes to show that if qualified solicitors can make a total a*se of interpreting these types of issue, we should pay up the fee for legal advice, rather than proceed as the armchair equivalent of a Barrack Room Lawyer . And that definitiely includes me ...

Steve

 

[Val54]

Now whose terminology is awry, I'll re-insert the splinters following your bad example .......... the local planning authority does not use covenants, if they wish to control an activity, they can do so by imposing a condition on a planning permission. They may also use an additional legal agreement under the Planning Act but I'm not going into that level of detail here .........

 

[marchie]

Now whose terminology is awry, I'll re-insert the splinters following your bad example .......... the local planning authority does not use covenants, if they wish to control an activity, they can do so by imposing a condition on a planning permission. They may also use an additional legal agreement under the Planning Act but I'm not going into that level of detail here .........

But the Local Planning Laws/Byelaws will result in the individual property having a covenant prohibiting parking incompliance with the Law, so there does not need to be a legal interest in the property, which is what you said in your Post. Let's agree to differ, and leave it to the solicitors ...

Steve

 

[Val54]

Planning conditions (planning laws/byelaws) are not covenants but as you say let's leave it, but not to the Council's solicitor in Worthing .....

 

[GeoffL]

So, if you do own a motorhome or campervan and your covenant does only say "caravans" and not refer to motorhome, campervan or home on wheels etc (usually this limited definition only happens in very old covenants), then a court looking to uphold the covenant against a motorhome or campervan would need to overturn this high court ruling.

Not necessarily. As was pointed out, a motorhome is a caravan for some purposes (e.g. the Caravan Site Planning Regs of 1960), and that definition seems to have been applied more often than not. The only reason I suspect that the judiciary found otherwise in the cited case is because the Government stood to lose out on the VAT. So, we have a statutory definition of "caravan" that includes any self-propelled road vehicle constructed or adapted for accommodation and one, seemingly perverse, definition that differentiates for taxation purposes only. (just sayin')

 

[Mr and Mrs Tupcox]

The bungalow we just brought has one.
Solicitor words ,who is any one going to complain too.
Owners of the land who built the bungalow has long gone ,crack on.

 

[merl]

Not necessarily. As was pointed out, a motorhome is a caravan for some purposes (e.g. the Caravan Site Planning Regs of 1960)

I respectfully disagree Geoff, I've read through the case and Oak tree motorhomes never cited a previous judgment falling in their favour while presenting their case so I think it's safe to assume that there hadn't been any. There was a clear summing up by the judges (3 of them in total) including all of the various acts covering caravans (including the act you cite), dictionary definitions and also the general day to day acceptance of what people expect a caravan to be. Therefore there can't be any doubt or misconceptions about it, a motorhome ISN'T a caravan, period and will remain so in law until that decision is overturned in the high court. Something that would be so expensive and so highly unlikely to be successful that surely would never happen anyway.
I'm confident that IF my house had a covenant against parking a caravan and ANYONE told me I had to move it or face legal action because the term caravan also covers motorhomes. Id simply make them/their solicitor aware of the 2017 ruling and point out that parking on the road(assuming no restrictions of course) is another legal alternative. I'd offer to put the van into storage as long as I'm not expected to foot the bill, alternatively if they'd like to buy me a cover to make it less conspicuous I'll put that over for them.

 

[molly 2]

A neighbour had a caravan on his drive a someone complained to the council and he was given 2 weeks to remove it , I enquired about a new build bungalow a few years ago and asked about covernents and was told no caravans or motorhomes could be kept on the new estate ,he contacted his solicitor and was confirmed it was correct , perhaps modern covernents include motorhomes caravans and works vans and goods vehicles. If the covernent says motorhomes motor caravans you could be made ro remove it ,. Lots of info on Google,,