Car park New England Bay, Dumfries and Galloway.

Fisherman

Fisherman

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On another website I noticed that Dumfries and Galloway council have erected signage stating no camping or overnight parking in their New England Bay carpark/ picnic area. For those who are not familiar with this carpark, it’s very rural, and sits right outside the CMC site. It’s large could easily take 30 vans. But it’s never full always plenty of space. They had issues with people emptying their cassettes into the toilets, leaving them unfit for human use. But last year they installed an elsan point, and gutted the toilets. There are idiots in tents and vans who reckon they can stay there for weeks on end. But the signage they erected breeches the land reform act of Scotland in my honest opinion. Up here accept in very few instances (Loch Lomond and the Trossachs April to October) you can camp in any unenclosed land. I have written to them stating so, and made some recommendations. This is a stunning location, losing this would mean a lot to me personally, and I am sure many others.

So I wrote the following to Dumfries and Galloway.



Hi,

I have been shown photographs of signage erected by yourselves at the “picnic area” in New England Bay.
You state that no camping is allowed. The 2003 Scottish land reform act states clearly that any unenclosed land in all but a very few exceptions can be used to camp. I feel that both this sign and a similar sign in Port Logan breech the said act.

Also no overnight parking signs in public carparks without a traffic’s regulation order within the 1984 road traffics act have no legal bearing. Police Scotland have indicated that these signs are unenforceable.

I appreciate that you may well be having issues at this carpark. But I feel this heavy handed approach is uncalled for. I also find it strange that only last year you put up signs welcoming everyone, and even installed a chemical waste point for motorhomes. Why not do what Fife Council have done in Elie and start to charge £10 a night for overnight parking. That way the council receive remuneration, and you deter the idiots who reckon that staying there for longer than two nights (sometimes weeks) is reasonable. We have used both this carpark, and the adjoining campsite (when available) for years now. I have every intention of doing what I have done for years. I can only apologise for the behaviour of a minority within our community, but they are a minority.
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Managed to download photo of signage, I note they refer to this as a picnic area.
I am hoping this sign does not refer to the whole area.
You can see the green elsan box in this photo, only installed last year.

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Was bound to happen. Maybe also pressure from the club?

Be interesting to see what response you get. I think we can expect more of this in Scotland, parts of it are getting swamped with vans especially up on the NC500 and of course the usual bad apples spoil it for everyone else.
 
Real shame if enforceable. It's a lovely spot. Superb walks along the coastal path.
 
Are you sure the sign doesnt relate to just the grass area in front of the loos, and maybe the parking area adjacent to the beach.
We were there a couple of weeks ago, and no sign then, but we always go into the 'old' campsite bit, which is usually much quieter. There are also new bins installed so they are making a good effort.
I know someone who was there over easter, and it was pretty full...
 
davep10000 said:
Are you sure the sign doesnt relate to just the grass area in front of the loos, and maybe the parking area adjacent to the beach.
We were there a couple of weeks ago, and no sign then, but we always go into the 'old' campsite bit, which is usually much quieter. There are also new bins installed so they are making a good effort.
I know someone who was there over easter, and it was pretty full...
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This was only put up on the other site two days ago.
Yes you maybe correct, I am hoping you are.
I have been promised a reply from Dumfries and Galloway within five working days. I will post their reply on here. But they have had issues with people staying there for weeks. Fingers crossed,
 
Mickrick said:
Better idea would be to put a two or three day limit on stopping there
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The problem with this is cost of monitoring this, and enforcing it.
Charging a small nightly fee would help to finance this, and use of vehicle registration when paying for parking would help with monitoring. Also the fact that having to pay would help to stop those who reckon spending weeks there is ok. It has reduced such behaviour in Fife were an overnight charge charge of £10 was introduced. Sadly yet again poor behaviour by a few campers and motorhomes owners have created problems for everyone else. But there’s a chance this overnight ban is not for the whole site, I await clarification from Dumfries and Galloway.
 
It is always sad that motorhomers get banned because of a few problems.
Boy racers can make a noise and mess in rural car parks, doggers can continue their nefarious activities, day trippers can dump rubbish and crap in the hedge .....but cars still don't get banned from car parks.
 
Moonraker 2 said:
It is always sad that motorhomers get banned because of a few problems.
Boy racers can make a noise and mess in rural car parks, doggers can continue their nefarious activities, day trippers can dump rubbish and crap in the hedge .....but cars still don't get banned from car parks.
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A point I have made many times on here, well made.
Yes we have selfish wankers amongst us, but then so do car drivers, dog walkers, and every other group you could name, yet how many times are we alone singled out for special treatment.
 
Moonraker 2 said:
It is always sad that motorhomers get banned because of a few problems.
Boy racers can make a noise and mess in rural car parks, doggers can continue their nefarious activities, day trippers can dump rubbish and crap in the hedge .....but cars still don't get banned from car parks.
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Its the boy racing Doggers in motorhomes you need to watch out for! I bet there are some on here. :love:
 
Whilst it is nice to find free overnight stops, it is increasingly common to find payment is necessary. However, more common these days not possible for many folk because cash or bank cards are not usable in the pay machines. One needs to have the latest tech in order to pay. I know a lot of people who don’t use computers let alone more complicated tech. I support the use of cash in order to help those many people unable to keep up to speed with progress. Look at what is happening to the banks.
 
gabby82 said:
Whilst it is nice to find free overnight stops, it is increasingly common to find payment is necessary. However, more common these days not possible for many folk because cash or bank cards are not usable in the pay machines. One needs to have the latest tech in order to pay. I know a lot of people who don’t use computers let alone more complicated tech. I support the use of cash in order to help those many people unable to keep up to speed with progress. Look at what is happening to the banks.
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Gabby you are absolutely right. I recently had a tantrum in Lewes. The parking meters wouldn't accept coins or card. When I tried phoning I was unable to understand how to type in the location code. I had to give up and move to another carpark that was more expensive, but took money.
Aaaarg!!
 
I have today received a reply from Dumfries and Galloway regarding the issue at New England Bay.
They have confirmed as I stated in my email, that their signage has no legal bearing.
But as you will read in their reply they may well apply to fulfil any legal requirements after a meeting of the local council.
Can I ask anyone with an interest in this to contact them with your feelings on this matter.
Their email address is CommunityAssets-Wigtown@dumgal.gov.uk

Here is both their reply and my reply to them.

Good afternoon William,
yes I can confirm that ‘No Overnight Parking’ signage has been put out in the New England Bay picnic area along with other similar locations, you are correct that presently these signs are not enforceable in law. My colleague Mike, who is on annual leave until next week, is part of a team who are reviewing the parking regulations for D & G Council and will be presenting a report to Elected Members for their consideration of next steps. When I have had the opportunity to speak with Mike, next week, he or I will confirm back to you exactly where this process is at, the signage was put in place as a request from local community councils.

Kind regards, Stuart

And my reply.

Hi Stuart,

Many thanks for your reply.

Can I ask you to confirm what is meant by picnic area on the signage. Is this the rear area only or the front area by the shore, or is this the whole area of the car park. There appears to be confusion on this issue.
Also could I remind yourselves that the adjacent campsite is only available for six months of the year, and anyone wishing to stay overnight only has this facility for the other six months of the year.
I have been using this carpark and the campsite for years now, and apart from some emptying their toilet cassettes into the toilets, and some staying longer than they should have I have never witnessed any issues. Installing the chemical waste point has negated the toilet issue, and limiting stays to two or three nights would hopefully solve the other issue.

I am very surprised that these proposals are being put forward for a carpark in such a remote area, were there are no nearby houses.
I have never witnessed any problems even in high season with access to the carpark for local people, the car park never being full.

Many including ourselves use the carpark for two nights before heading into the campsite for the final night or two. And I can confirm after checking today that the campsite is almost fully booked until August, thus the carpark is not responsible for any loss of business for the campsite.

I look forward to hearing from yourself or your colleague Mike with any updates.
May I also suggest before taking any decisions that you contact CAMPRA for advice.


Regards
 
I have received further correspondence and things are looking bad for the whole of Dumfries and Galloway, not just New England bay. Can I ask any CAMpRA members on here to ensure that they are aware of what’s going on and for them to get involved, this is very serious for us all.
Here’s what I received this morning, and my reply.

Morning William
The picnic area is the whole area as you enter into New England bay,
I do know that the campsite is only opened for 6 months of the year,
The proposal are for all the car parks in Dumfries & Galloway not just New England bay,
We have had numerous complaints about camping in all the picnic areas in Wigtownshire,
The Eslan points where installed as visitors where disposing of the waste inappropriately,
as you highlighted earlier we cannot enforce whether visitors stay one night or several we would like visitors to come enjoy the area and leave it as they find it, unfortunately that does not happen in some cases, the signage was put in place as a request from local people and elected members as they had concerns about the amount of people visiting the area , if you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards Stuart

My reply

Good morning Stuart,

There are several issues here.
First as I have already pointed out there are limitations placed upon you regarding camping in Scotland under the land reform act.

But most importantly a Motorhome parked in a carpark is not actually camping.
Whereas motorhomes have their own toilet facilities those who camp don’t. And in my experience this is were most of the issues stem from, particularly were there are no toilet facilities. Motorhome owners rarely leave rubbish lying around, if they have dogs they ensure they don’t leave dog waste, they don’t tend to get drunk resulting in poor antisocial behaviour, they don’t race about car parks in the early hours, they don’t tend to take recreational drugs, on the whole we tend to be the best behaved visitors in car parks. I have sadly witnessed all of the aforementioned behaviour and never from any motorhome owners.

By stopping or attempting to stop all overnight parking in Dumfries and Galloway you are in effect banning Motorhome owners who pay more towards for the very facilities you wish to ban them from than the average car driver does. Yet again we alone are being singled out for such treatment. Although your signage has no legal authority, and even though most of us are aware of this, most Motorhome owners being responsible decent people will abide by them. Also by doing this you put more pressure on other regions around you who have adopted much more reasonable and pragmatic solutions. Fife council and Highland councils being prime examples. Many of these motorhomes have come from Europe, were such actions as you propose would never happen, and were provisions for motorhomes are far superior to what you currently provide, even prior to such a draconian proposals being implemented, if approved. What kind of message does this send to visitors when a whole region proposes such unnecessary and draconian action.

The vast majority of Motorhome owners are elderly people like myself, who have worked all of their adult lives and paid all of their taxes helping to improve our country, to be treated in such a manner is totally unacceptable. Also please consider that within Dumfries and Galloway you have thousands of residents who own motorhomes, who can visit other regions who don’t seek to limit their activities. These other regions don’t see us as a hinderance to be dealt with, but instead an opportunity for local businesses.

I hope that during any discussion prior to any possible implementation that someone will be given the opportunity to put forward our perspective here. By banning all overnight parking in a whole region regardless of individual circumstances, is simply not reasonable or appropriate. In my experience many who take such decisions are ignorant of all of the facts, and simply make such decisions without proper due diligence.

I really hope that these proposals are dealt with carefully.

Regards
 
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I did a search Bill for "complaints about camping in picnic areas in Wigtownshire" and then Dumfries and Galloway. Cant find anything apart from something from August 2020 about dirty tent campers around Loch Ken.

Maybe you should ask for some evidence of these complaints. This area of Scotland in my experience (Which to be fair is not that vast) is that its not as popular as many other regions. I dont remember seeing hordes of motorhomes there. However there is no doubt that places like the NC500 further north have been mobbed with campers of all descriptions and sadly bad behaviour from "vanners" does happen and I think we can assume it wont just be isolated to the NC500.

When we visited the New England Bay wild spot in September 2021 just for a look on the Scooter it was clear "camping activity" was going on and many openly admitted they were there for a good while. Motorhomes are probably an easy target though for the NIMBYs.
 
barryd said:
I did a search Bill for "complaints about camping in picnic areas in Wigtownshire" and then Dumfries and Galloway. Cant find anything apart from something from August 2020 about dirty tent campers around Loch Ken.

Maybe you should ask for some evidence of these complaints. This area of Scotland in my experience (Which to be fair is not that vast) is that its not as popular as many other regions. I dont remember seeing hordes of motorhomes there. However there is no doubt that places like the NC500 further north have been mobbed with campers of all descriptions and sadly bad behaviour from "vanners" does happen and I think we can assume it wont just be isolated to the NC500.

When we visited the New England Bay wild spot in September 2021 just for a look on the Scooter it was clear "camping activity" was going on and many openly admitted they were there for a good while. Motorhomes are probably an easy target though for the NIMBYs.
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I would rather CAMpRA got involved here Barry. they have the knowledge and skillset to deal with this.
I see my function as simply highlighting this.
However I will continue correspondence with them.
And if asked for input at any meetings I will make myself available.
But I don't have the knowledge nor the skillset that others do.
This is a serious matter, involving a large chunk of Scotland.
 
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