Birmingham Riots

[John H]

Maybe put them each in to share a cell with a hard core criminal for a month .

The problem with this is that the figures show that if you put a young fledgling thug in with an experienced one he will then emerge as a better-trained thug. I'm not saying don't lock them up but locking them up with an experienced potential teacher is not a particularly good idea.

 

[Bigpeetee]

Just wish the police would clamp down at an earlier age.

One of my bugbears, going off subject slightly, I was walking the dog one night when a couple of youths came belting down the pavement on bicycles, across the road without looking and rode up on the wrong side of the road, doing wheelies. All without lights.

They went past the local Plod who took no notice of them, when I questioned him about the lack of action, "we don't have the time"

Now to me this lets kids know that it's OK to flout the law and endanger motorist/pedestrians. I'm sure that as motorists we've all come across unlit bikes, God help us if we hit one of the darlings!!

So the kids learn that they don't have to obey the law.

When my wife ran a shop, she could see drug dealing going on in the doorway opposite, the police station was only 75 metres away, but each time she phoned, there was no one available. She even offered to video or let plain clothes wait in the shop, no response. So again, the kids think they can do as they please.

And so it goes on, around here, many of the hotels and shops have Eastern Europeans working. Good for them, because the local kids "Don't want to work in a shop or Hotel" The Eastern Europeans have taken the opportunity whilst our own kids get their parents to keep them.

The underclass is self perpetuating, where steeling and dodgy deals are becoming the norm, kids look at those involved in drug dealing and see the glamorous lifestyles of those at the bottom of the pile, never mind those at the top. Why should they work and get less than the dealers??

A young single mother I know had a daughter who was misbehaving in school, it was obvious that there were no rules at home, go to bed when she liked, did what she wanted all at the age of 5. The Mum was offered parenting assistance; the response- "Who the F**k do they think they are telling me how to look after kids" she was eighteen herself. The child is becoming wild and a future hoodie and troublemaker.

The answer, I don't have a finite answer, but getting kids to respect the law and their elders is a good start. Nip things in the bud.

PS, If you buy a child a bike, make sure you spend a few pounds on lights and check on your kids to make sure they use them and know where they are & what they're doing. Being a good parent is quite tough at times!!

 

[yorkslass]

It used to be the rule that Looters were summarily executed, shot on sight, as recently as Iraq and New Orleans, that would solve the problem. If that's too harsh, consider the situation here in the 1700s, not enough Prisons to house criminals in, the only alternative was "Deportation", OK, Australia and Georgia are no longer available but there's still the Falklands.

would you want them?

 

[robjmckinney]

Zero social mobility

Zero social mobility means no matter how hard you work or how educated you become, when at the the bottom of the pile you have no chance at getting on and moving up from the underclass!
In my day you could walk out of one job in the morning and start another in the afternoon, not so today. At the bottom you are either on the dole or a low paid job plus collecting benefits that add up to be being worse off on than on the dole. Most youths are not entitled to benefits and simply have no form of income if you are a young and single!
If I were a youth today I would be on the streets protesting but that would be illegal and I would be arrested. Once you receive a criminal record you are effective4ly unemployable so dependant on state benefits for the rest of their lives, so how good it is to give criminal record to every underclass!

 

[Bigpeetee]

I was very poor when I was young, but I still respected authority and the law.

I struggled to raise a family on very little, doing without and getting "nice" things when we could afford. Nowadays, young people expect to have everything I have struggled to get as a right.

If you are so poor, how can you have mobiles, clothes, electronics that even now I struggle to afford?

I'm sorry, yes things are tough, but it's not the first time in recent history that it's been tough.

There are jobs, less now than before, but many youngsters are refusing to work because they "don't like it" or "it's not my chosen career". I've had to do some really crap, dirty jobs when times have been tough.

I took on a youngster for 4 weeks work, at the age of nearly 60 I had more energy than him. He was tightening bolts into concrete, he didn't last a couple of days. He would only wear his best designer clothes to work and complained they got dirty.

He didn't realy want to work, but took the huff when I stopped him using his mobile to chat to his mates.

This is only one incident in many. PS A young Polish guy finished the job, shame I couldn't keep him on.

His answer, I'd rather be earning than not, it's my pride. He also could read and write better than the brit.

What do they teach them in school??

 

[Kontiki]

I consider that no punishment these rioters get will be enough to prevent it happening again, while this might have started from a peaceful protest (this is anybody's right even if we don't agree with them) once it got to causing damage then looting they are breaking the law. After the first night this was then nothing to do with original protest it was just criminal activity (even the family of the guy who was shot were against the riots). The big problem we have now is these youngsters (& some not so young) have realised that our police force isn't able to react quickly or forcefully enough to prevent damage & looting. The police/politicians seem to be taking credit for being less trouble on the streets last night, have they considered that maybe the rioters are having a break?? How long an the police keep it up, what happens if the rioters get smart enough to pick random days to get out on the streets, they have shown that it can take time for the police to get men on the ground quick enough. I would be surprised if this is going to go away any time soon, don't have any idea about how we can solve the problem, even if there were plenty of jobs about would these troublemakers be willing to do an honest days work.

 

[vindiboy]

It's our own fault, we've let the do gooders and human righters take over, these thugs have nothing to fear, they know any sentence they are given will be so lenient as to be a joke, the Police know most of the looters it seems ,from past encounters ,so it's nothing new to them, we won't allow our Police to do their job properly , they have too much paperwork,and not enough time on the beat, the Government wants to cut prison sentences if the offender owns up, ridiculous, so if anyone is to blame it is YOU [ and Me ] for letting the situation with regards to punishment fitting the crime go out of the window, all the crap about these villains having a deprived Childhood is a load of crap again spread by the do-gooders, build more prisons, lock em up and throw away the key, they are just useless Human Beings .

 

[vindideck]

It's our own fault, we've let the do gooders and human righters take over, these thugs have nothing to fear, they know any sentence they are given will be so lenient as to be a joke, the Police know most of the looters it seems ,from past encounters ,so it's nothing new to them, we won't allow our Police to do their job properly , they have too much paperwork,and not enough time on the beat, the Government wants to cut prison sentences if the offender owns up, ridiculous, so if anyone is to blame it is YOU [ and Me ] for letting the situation with regards to punishment fitting the crime go out of the window, all the crap about these villains having a deprived Childhood is a load of crap again spread by the do-gooders, build more prisons, lock em up and throw away the key, they are just useless Human Beings .

Well put Vindiboy, getting rid of the 'PC Brigade' and 'Human Righters' should be the Government's first job tomorrow but i think
they will still be sulking about being recalled.

 

[kimbowbill]

I was listening to the radio yesterday and of course the topic was the police, an old man came on to tell his story, he had been burgled, came through his window whilst he was in the back garden, stole his wallet, some ornaments and jewllery, he phoned the police and asked if someone could call round, they said no,there was no one available and wanted to give him a crime number, he insisted someone call round, he wanted to speak to someone, but still they said no, he then said,' dont you understand, i've been burgled,' the officer replied, 'what do you want us to do about it sir'

and this is before the cuts

 

[ostersund]

Public BIRCHING worked in the Isle of Man

How about bringing back conscription and the birch for a start.

Until the advent of the HUMAN RIGHTS ACT which has managed to tie everybodies hands including the POLICE who are worried
to death about infringeing the rights of CRIMINALS. We had a society which was permitted to discipline thugs & muggers etc,but
now NOBODY is allowed to say or do anything in case you contravene the RACE RELATIONS ACT or Their HUMAN RIGHTS.
BRING BACK PUBLIC BIRCHING INSTEAD OF TELLING THE LITTLE ?????????? HOW NAUGHTY THEY ARE

 

[maureenandtom]

These words were taken from a paper partly published by the Sunday Times more than twenty years ago. The unrest we are seeing now was forecast then. I've put a link to the nearest I can find to that paper after the quotation. The paper I've been able to find is from 1996 but as far as I remember it, it's the same.

" . . . when large numbers of young men don’t work, the
communities around them break down, just as they break down when
large numbers of young unmarried women have babies. The two
phenomena are intimately related. Just as work is more important
than merely making a living, getting married and raising a family
are more than a way to pass the time. Supporting a family is a
central means for a man to prove to himself that he is a ‘mensch’.
Men who do not support families find other ways to prove that they
are men, which tend to take various destructive forms. As many have
commented through the centuries, young males are essentially
barbarians for whom marriage—meaning not just the wedding vows,
but the act of taking responsibility for a wife and children—is an
indispensable civilising force. Young men who don’t work don’t make
good marriage material. Often they don’t get married at all; when
they do, they haven’t the ability to fill their traditional role. In either
case, too many of them remain barbarians."

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/cw33.pdf

If you can get through that, you can get through anything so here is a little update - this is much easier to get through - from about three years ago.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article_assets/articledir_1/652/The_Underclass_and_Crime final.pdf

The problem is identified. So is the solution.

 

[Deleted member 207]

would you want them?

I can think of a few Aboriginal and catholic communities that could do with a few extra "bum boys", maybe they'd leave the children alone then!!!

Personally I think it maybe time to intervene in Darwin's Law of Evolution and castrate the lot of them so that they cant breed another generation of morons. Although I'd use the two bricks method of castration to ensure that they fully understood that their human rights were being violated forever.

 

[vindideck]

I was listening to the radio yesterday and of course the topic was the police, an old man came on to tell his story, he had been burgled, came through his window whilst he was in the back garden, stole his wallet, some ornaments and jewllery, he phoned the police and asked if someone could call round, they said no,there was no one available and wanted to give him a crime number, he insisted someone call round, he wanted to speak to someone, but still they said no, he then said,' dont you understand, i've been burgled,' the officer replied, 'what do you want us to do about it sir'

and this is before the cuts

If this ever happen to you and the Police will not attend, just tell them that you have shot the burglar, they will be round in a flash.
When they say you lied, tell them that they lied (no one available !!!)

 

[John H]

I still think that there is a tendency to blame the wrong thing here. It is not the Human Rights Act or "political correctness" that is at fault here; it is the way these thugs have been brought up (or rather the lack of it). There have always been those who "knew their rights" long before anyone had ever heard of the HRA or PC but now they are are larger, better organised (via twitter etc) group who can "play" with the police. You will not solve the problem by abandoning social legislation or by bringing back the birch (however good it may make you feel). The only way to solve the problem is to break the chain of non-parenting that is going on here. I don't pretend to have the answer but we won't get anywhere if we look for it in the wrong place.

 

[Bigpeetee]

Get back to basic values, respecting the law and expecting the law to be enforced.

Stop letting scams like "whiplash" crimes. It's commonplace and seen as a way of "Hee Hee" getting some money by a great number of young people. I've seen it happen, whilst true whiplash is a painful experience, a minor knock doesn't make you traumatised, unable to work etc.

Give people real expectations of what the real world is all about, I'm afraid that I do put some blame on the teaching institution, not necessarily individual teachers, but the way children are treated. If, a Carol Vorderman stated, that 75% of children who PASS GCSE maths at grade C don't understand fractions and percentages, it brings into question the validity of the exam result and the teaching that got there.

We as a nation are "Letting our kids get away with things", we are frowned upon if we stipulate boundaries, if a child is given a deadline, ie. a piece of work has to be handed in by a certain time, if it's late, never mind.

Please teachers, lecturers, don't deny this happens as I've seen it in my work, and even more so from graduates, who have never been punished for late work.

Colleagues at the local university where I worked virtually called me a liar when I explained that in my apprenticeship in electronics, we were in the apprentice training school 40 hrs a week, learning or on a block release course, where a years course was crammed into 3 months 9-5 with homework.

I was told that it was IMPOSSIBLE to learn for 40 Hrs a week. We had to, if you failed, you were out.

I'm sure there's a lot of "Old School" people on the forum with similar experiences. Maybe that's why it's called "Old School" because the "New School" doesn't seem to be working all that well in turning out rounded human that had respect for their teachers and peers.

PS, I went to a comprehensive, nothing posh.

Let's start at an early age.:idea-007::idea-007::idea-007:

 

[John H]

Can't argue with any of that, Pete. I never claimed the education system was perfect (far from it) but if the parents of young thugs won't teach them right from wrong then somebody has to and schools would seem to be a place to start. The fact that some parts of our education system need reform is certainly a complication!

I might add that one of the reasons I think that people are getting high grades but seem to lack the basics is because of the nonsensical emphasis put on league tables, which encouraged schools to teach to the test instead of teaching what they should be teaching. Schools became paranoid about falling down the league tables and successive governments demanded ever-increasing pass-rates to show how good their education policies were. What everybody seemed to ignore was that half the population will be below average by definition and so we got to the ludicrous situation where the vast majority were claimed to be above average in this mythical ever-improving system. We do our kids no favours by pretending.

 

[Bigpeetee]

Question is, how do we teach the parents? Half of the illiterate/uneducated.

Whilst I'm not in any way religious, the 10 commandments are a great basis for a good society. Other religions have similar values, I'm only using the Christian Code as it's probably most recognised.

Whilst numbers of our police force are in the Manchester/Salford/Liverpool helping the local force, the cash cow, I mean speed camera vans are still active locally. If they've got excellent cameras, why not utilise them for recording the faces of the thugs?

 

[John H]

Question is, how do we teach the parents? Half of the illiterate/uneducated.

Whilst I'm not in any way religious, the 10 commandments are a great basis for a good society. Other religions have similar values, I'm only using the Christian Code as it's probably most recognised.

Whilst numbers of our police force are in the Manchester/Salford/Liverpool helping the local force, the cash cow, I mean speed camera vans are still active locally. If they've got excellent cameras, why not utilise them for recording the faces of the thugs?

There are times, Pete, when you have to admit defeat. You may not be able to teach old dogs but you might just be able to break the cycle by getting to their kids. And I agree with you about religion - I'm an atheist myself but religion does have a good moral basis (as is witnessed by the amazing attitude of that Muslim dad who had just lost his son to the riots). There's always a downside, though - as is evidenced by the Al Qaeda interpretation of religion! It seems to be always one step forward and one step back - you have to be in it for the long game! Agree also about the cameras.

 

[Coolasluck]

If we can change anything in this country we also need to combat the european courts.
We seem to need their approval before we can do anything these days.
This court and its human rights act is what is going to stop us from doing what needs to be done in this country,it has already been mooted about when the publication of rioters and their photographs was mentioned,it makes a mockery of this country and the people who need common sense restored.I am wondering if we can opt out of being ran from brussels,if not we may as well get rid of our goverment and be ran straight from the E.U.

The royal mail has public ascent from our goverment for privatisation to go ahead,but before privatising our goverment needs permission from the E.U before it can go ahead.I wonder where it will all end.

 

[Coolasluck]

Another message that no doubt will only apply to the non religous:


David Cameron today in parliment stated:

He announced a crackdown on facemasks and a review of curfews during an emergency recall of Parliament.



I wonder if he means it and does that now mean that muslim women with their veils now tow the line with the rest of us or will it mean one rule for us whilst the muslim faith(or religon in general should anyone think i am being not politically correct) carries on as normal complaining to the E.U and its human rights.

Actions are what are needed now instead of talking.Lets tell Brussels that this is what we have decided and it is now end of story.