Aluminium air battery

Sharpie

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Don't you just hate a smarty pants that's either been on the course or even worse-----------------------university
Sorry for bringing up tedious facts and data, but that's what engineers like to do.

Here's another observation:

My little Kipor IG1000 generator, similar to a small Honda, rated at 900W continuous, is specified to produce 1 kWh using 550g of petrol that I can get anywhere, and weighs 14kg. That's about 0.75 litres, costing about 90p.

So the efoy fuel costs are five times higher, but it is a completely different thing.

The smallest efoy (though they all the same physical size and weight, just different fuel cell stacks inside) outputs 40W. Enough to deliver 80Ah per day (running continuously).

Consuming 0.87 l of fuel, costing £4.35

If I increased my charger capabilities to say 50A which the generator and even a single LiFePO4 should easily handle, with spare 240V to power other things as well, I could put in 80Ah in about 1.6 hours running. And do it as often as required. For a fifth of the fuel cost.

Put it another way, 5000 hours of efoy usage ~= 200 hours of generator time. During which the generator maintenance will have been one oil change and a check of the spark plug. It should be nicely run in by then, fit for many years more service.
 
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trevskoda

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50 years ago many country homes here had no lecy and we survived,todays culture of gadgets is to blame,good side is we are all in touch and more savvy than our parents were. ;)
 

MarkJ

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I’d fancied an Efoy because I like the idea but the costs did put me off. But wouldn’t it be nice if you had a non-polluting, silent box generating electricity.

But, as with electric cars, delving deeper might be interesting. The energy required to build an electric car is greater than that required to build a conventional car; so with the Efoy, I wonder what it takes to make the Efoy and the fuel?
 

jagmanx

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Yes, I like the idea of EFOY and the smallest unit would do us.
But the outlay is simply too much for the benefit.
They also take up space which would be a nuisance.
We only use MoHo in summer so we can live quite happily without anything other than our 120Watt Solar Panel and single 90AH battery
April and September we use sites with EHU. As has been posted a small Genny is still a good solution for most
As to the underlying costs and Eco-unfriendliness of Efoy E-Cars etc etc ????
 

channa

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I’d fancied an Efoy because I like the idea but the costs did put me off. But wouldn’t it be nice if you had a non-polluting, silent box generating electricity.

But, as with electric cars, delving deeper might be interesting. The energy required to build an electric car is greater than that required to build a conventional car; so with the Efoy, I wonder what it takes to make the Efoy and the fuel?
Generators over 5000 hrs = 12 altercations and 3 smacks on the nose ...so how do you measure that ?

On a more serious note, all this talk of renewables or more efficient the overall energy requirements are interesting but now you get the issue of commerce starting to rear it’s head.

A chap I was involved with on the air con business side re installed an air con plant in the midlands the contract value £7 million including the land and buildings giant chiller rooms and fridge freezers ...the existing units using gasses that have become illegal and cost too much to realistically convert ,,,,the old units sold to Nigeria where things aren’t so strict ,,,by all accounts the companies largest reservation was in global market selling a cost base so much cheaper to Nigeria they feared becoming competitive .,,,how many scenarios similar to this influence outcomes it makes you wonder
 
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Okta

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I’d fancied an Efoy because I like the idea but the costs did put me off. But wouldn’t it be nice if you had a non-polluting, silent box generating electricity.
I really appreciate the convenience of my Efoy. Not only does it not disturb me it looks after itself. I just leave it on standby monitoring the battery and it cuts in automatically if the battery gets low. I can leave it in standby all winter when the mh is in storage. A generator would be cheaper but it has to be set up/started and probably should not be left unattended. It does away with the need for a second battery, takes up about the same space and weighs a lot less. It works for me but it is not a global panacea.
 

QFour

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We had a battery fail this year in Spain it was a bit inconvenient but we did find a local place that had two standard lead acid batteries in stock. Using non standard parts that you rely on could be the end of a holiday and expensive. The lithium batteries that everyone is jumping up and down about at £1000 a pop could cause you a few problems if one fails in Greece / Spain Etc. They are constructed from individual cells that are all welded together. One cell fails and thats the end of your battery. After looking at the video of cutting one apart and realising that it was built the same way as I built my electric bike batteries apart from the fact that I can replace an individual cell as they are all screwed together. There are now Super Lead Acid batteries that can be discharged the same as Lithium. They will last longer than lithium because what the manufacturers failed to tell you about lithium is if you keep discharging it completely the number of charge cycles decreases considerably. When you think that you can buy 7 or 8 lead acid batteries for the same price as one lithium battery and the lead acid battery is easy to recycle why would you want to go down the lithium route. It will be interesting to see how long they last and wether it is just a fad.
 

Okta

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We had a battery fail this year in Spain it was a bit inconvenient but we did find a local place that had two standard lead acid batteries in stock. Using non standard parts that you rely on could be the end of a holiday and expensive. The lithium batteries that everyone is jumping up and down about at £1000 a pop could cause you a few problems if one fails in Greece / Spain Etc. They are constructed from individual cells that are all welded together. One cell fails and thats the end of your battery. After looking at the video of cutting one apart and realising that it was built the same way as I built my electric bike batteries apart from the fact that I can replace an individual cell as they are all screwed together. There are now Super Lead Acid batteries that can be discharged the same as Lithium. They will last longer than lithium because what the manufacturers failed to tell you about lithium is if you keep discharging it completely the number of charge cycles decreases considerably. When you think that you can buy 7 or 8 lead acid batteries for the same price as one lithium battery and the lead acid battery is easy to recycle why would you want to go down the lithium route. It will be interesting to see how long they last and wether it is just a fad.
I know that LiFePO4 is not the answer for everyone and they are expensive but they have not been “£1000 a pop“ for a while now. Even 3 years ago I bought my 100Ah Relion for £900 and I suspect I could get one a fair bit cheaper now. Unlike a lead acid battery a single Li cell failure would not take down the whole battery. My Relion is wired as 20 parallel banks of 4 cells in series, so a single cell failure would take out 4 cells and knock 5Ah off the total capacity. That is why they are marketed for military applications. Discharging my battery to 100% reduces the cycle life to 600, similar to the claims made for the lead crystal one linked above. At a more sensible 50-80% discharge the LI is very significantly better than the lead crystal. The Li also has a battery management system that will protect it from low discharge damage. You can get a few quid for recycling a lead acid battery but the chemicals in a LiFePO4 battery are less hazardous and present less of a long term environmental hazard.

I am certainly not knocking the lead crystal battery, it looks interesting. However there are some false LiFePO4 myths out there because they seem to get confused with other types of Li-ion batteries, with different chemistries.

As for a battery failure in a remote location the Li can just as easily be replaced with a local lead acid one as any other battery. It would not cause a premature end to my holiday.
 

Nabsim

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Its totally dependent on how you use and can recharge batteries plus what amp you need that will justify Lifepo4 or not. If you have a need they meet then they are hard to argue with, if you are a light user then they will never be right for you.

Solar is absolutely brilliant and for approx 6/7 months a year I need no other charging source but this time of year in the UK it just isn't viable if you are in the van all the time. Will be interesting to see what they do with this new style power cell. If it was to generate power to recharge my main batteries (B2B) it could be interesting. May even get me to leave generator at home lol
 

jagmanx

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Its totally dependent on how you use and can recharge batteries plus what amp you need that will justify Lifepo4 or not. If you have a need they meet then they are hard to argue with, if you are a light user then they will never be right for you.

Solar is absolutely brilliant and for approx 6/7 months a year I need no other charging source but this time of year in the UK it just isn't viable if you are in the van all the time. Will be interesting to see what they do with this new style power cell. If it was to generate power to recharge my main batteries (B2B) it could be interesting. May even get me to leave generator at home lol
Given what you write and winter a Genny is the best solution...If we were winter campers we would need a Genny and would have to work out how to keep it/store it etc. IMO even Lithium x2 would not be enough..Unless you drive too much !
Ok for us Sept/April a few days with EHU works
Given "Sharpies" post re his Genny costs etc..I agree
An underslung LPG genny would be handy BUT expensive (I know) and inefficient (I believe)
 

jagmanx

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Just a thought
Would an air battery power an (electric) Air guitar.
May have to FENDER off a few comments !
 

Okta

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Just a thought
Would an air battery power an (electric) Air guitar.
May have to FENDER off a few comments !
OMG I can see where this thread is now heading. Still no need to fret, it will probably strike a chord with somebody, especially someone who has enough neck to string us along.
 

Sharpie

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I really appreciate the convenience of my Efoy. Not only does it not disturb me it looks after itself. I just leave it on standby monitoring the battery and it cuts in automatically if the battery gets low. I can leave it in standby all winter when the mh is in storage. A generator would be cheaper but it has to be set up/started and probably should not be left unattended. It does away with the need for a second battery, takes up about the same space and weighs a lot less. It works for me but it is not a global panacea.

Okta, if you isolate you batteries, any decent ones, be they lead or lithium, should survive several months during winter storage with acceptable self discharge.

Put them away fully charged, isolate, then come back in the Spring, all should be good. Otherwise you might have a dud, which needed replacing anyway. Charge them up again and set off with confidence.

Really I do think some over-think and perhaps are tempted to put in far more stuff than they actually need. I don't need much 'leccy, a modest amount of solar (not the entire van roofed with panels) in the Summer is all, but the generator is essential in the winter, when I use more power, if not moving on every day.

LiPO4 batteries have many advantages, much lighter weight, more usable capacity, fast charge acceptance etc. Even durability if you believe the numbers. If starting again I'd consider one. Perhaps lithium might be almost a lifetime investment. Whereas lead is a consumable, prepare to replace them as and when, as you do your tyres and brake pads, it's just a running cost. Look after them well and they can give great service.

I don't obsess over power anxiety, the basic display gives me a clue, if worried I know how to use a multimeter to be more precise. If I fitted a Lithium I'd want to have a decent monitor for it, more expense and complexity. In any case I have a pretty good idea of what my simple installation uses and what I have is more than adequate, particularly if moving on every few days.

I still carry the generator in the Summer, if only to power the Remoska to cook up something that I couldn't do on the gas hob. No I do not have a huge inverter either. Coffee makers, microwaves, electric kettles, hairdryers etc. No I don't have nor want these sorts of things. Nor a bunch of IT that steadily sucks power. Just a couple of mobiles, tablets, a laptop and a rarely-used telly.

My generator only cost me £80 from ebay. Used once, put away for several years, wouldn't start, sold for spares or repair. Took me an hour to take it entirely to bits to satisfy my curiosity (they are very well made), clean the carburettor, then use. I was previously very skeptical about generators, but now I wouldn't be without one.

Everyone has different requirements, and many options are available. What suits me may be completely different for others. Thankfully many options are now available.
 

Okta

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Okta, if you isolate you batteries, any decent ones, be they lead or lithium, should survive several months during winter storage with acceptable self discharge.

Put them away fully charged, isolate, then come back in the Spring, all should be good. Otherwise you might have a dud, which needed replacing anyway. Charge them up again and set off with confidence.

Really I do think some over-think and perhaps are tempted to put in far more stuff than they actually need. I don't need much 'leccy, a modest amount of solar (not the entire van roofed with panels) in the Summer is all, but the generator is essential in the winter, when I use more power, if not moving on every day.

LiPO4 batteries have many advantages, much lighter weight, more usable capacity, fast charge acceptance etc. Even durability if you believe the numbers. If starting again I'd consider one. Perhaps lithium might be almost a lifetime investment. Whereas lead is a consumable, prepare to replace them as and when, as you do your tyres and brake pads, it's just a running cost. Look after them well and they can give great service.

I don't obsess over power anxiety, the basic display gives me a clue, if worried I know how to use a multimeter to be more precise. If I fitted a Lithium I'd want to have a decent monitor for it, more expense and complexity. In any case I have a pretty good idea of what my simple installation uses and what I have is more than adequate, particularly if moving on every few days.

I still carry the generator in the Summer, if only to power the Remoska to cook up something that I couldn't do on the gas hob. No I do not have a huge inverter either. Coffee makers, microwaves, electric kettles, hairdryers etc. No I don't have nor want these sorts of things. Nor a bunch of IT that steadily sucks power. Just a couple of mobiles, tablets, a laptop and a rarely-used telly.

My generator only cost me £80 from ebay. Used once, put away for several years, wouldn't start, sold for spares or repair. Took me an hour to take it entirely to bits to satisfy my curiosity (they are very well made), clean the carburettor, then use. I was previously very skeptical about generators, but now I wouldn't be without one.

Everyone has different requirements, and many options are available. What suits me may be completely different for others. Thankfully many options are now available.
The winter storage problem lies with the engine battery not the leisure one, which as you say once isolated could sit there all winter without coming to any harm. Tracker, alarm and ecu all take a small but steady current from the engine battery and if left it needs charging after a couple of weeks. I tried solar but my storage position is shaded and in winter solar does nothing. The Efoy needs to be left connected to 12V and the fuel cartridge for the winter (or taken home and kept warm) so I let it look after the battery which saves me from having to worry. I just checked my tracker info and it tells me my engine battery is sitting there comfortably at 12.95V.
 

Sharpie

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Okta, I think that your starter battery drain in storage might be mostly down to the base vehicle. My Ducato for example will flatten the very big starter battery in less than a month. I've checked how much the steady drain is, can't remember the numbers, but it is lots.

I expect most other modern vehicles are similar.

A Ducato for example keeps all the complex vehicle electronics and busses live, all the time. They do however provide a simple isolator on the battery to turn all that off. You have to rummage in the battery compartment to access it.

Flip the lever, pull it off the negative terminal, totally isolated. Neither is your van likely to be had away in this state.

There is some complexity before and after you have done so e.g making sure that you have locked the doors with the central locking, with the battery still connected, before isolating it, then exiting through the drivers' door and turning the key. Accessing the battery hatch is easy from the nearside, but that won't help, because you first have to close that door, trip the locks, then isolate whilst grovelling on the floor. No such trouble on an LHD version.

Since you have other things to keep powered such as a Tracker, well that's another matter. I'd be surprised if they were a significant drain.
 
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