advice : on no overnight sleeping and caravans signs

misunderstanding

I do not think the penny has dropped yet
Just retread what you have written

You use a layby. And other parking areas. For years
Then you wonder why the council has put up restriction signs


Just may be you have over stayed your welcome just a little

I wild 90% of the time. I do not stay at one spot I move on
It's the gypsies in large groups staying for weeks that get the places noticed. I find if you keep below the radar and don't over stay. People done go reporting to the council
I don't know how this misunderstanding occurred. I am not good at correspondence. I live a few hundred yards from the layby. I arrive at about 9 or 10pm but could be 1 am, and leave for work at about 4 or 5 am. whyt is always this layby....is because the council restricted the other 3 or 4 I used.
 
possible misunderstanding

I do not think the penny has dropped yet
Just retread what you have written

You use a layby. And other parking areas. For years
Then you wonder why the council has put up restriction signs


Just may be you have over stayed your welcome just a little

I wild 90% of the time. I do not stay at one spot I move on
It's the gypsies in large groups staying for weeks that get the places noticed. I find if you keep below the radar and don't over stay. People done go reporting to the council
,.
I live down the road. I arrive sometimes 6 pm, sometimes 11 pm, If I am under a great deal of stress......I will drive here at 1am...to this layby. I am gone usually at 5am if I have early work, or by 7 am if work is not pressing. (need to get home to shower etc before work)....I don't live here in the layby. If I am lucky to have the week end off...I might be here for 36 hours. This refers to shellness, as I no longer use any other area I previously used, as I no longer have dependant kids.

The other areas I used....was for beach parties for my kids birthdays as they grew up. Instead of upsetting my neighbours with loud noise...we used the beach. So 3 times a year as I have 3 kids. Then add on special occasions, like valentines, bonfire night. Both my neighbours with kids also used the beach for parties...that's where I got the idea from...It isolated, away from houses, and in my opinion , especially as I am now living next door to the neighbours from hell with over 25 members living there...the least offensive to neighbours.

I am sad that the next generation can not enjoy what myself and neighbours kids enjoyed. Its better to have of group of 14.15.16 year olds on a beach under supervision of adult, fishing and bbq and listening to music, than have them throwing stones at windows and causing trouble in town and getting drunk on cider because of boredom and causing problems in town. My kids can not offer their kids or their partners kids the life they enjoyed.

Pre 14 of age, we enjoyed another venue...as a cheap cost....no one mined paying the cost.......that's not possible now to even pay to be there.........


I am not good at communications and expressing myself so sometimes I confuse people..i have apologised several times over on several threads.
 
yes

An interesting solution - and it got me thinking. Has anyone ever been told to immediately move on by any Council official - other than where there is a specific TRO which would apply to all, traveller or not? I know of no-one, so does the problem really exist?
YES HERE IN SHELLNESS. When knocking on the door at 5 to 6 am, people were told not to be here tomorrow. Recently in sussex I was told 24 hours to be off the beach or 500 pound fine
 
YES HERE IN SHELLNESS. When knocking on the door at 5 to 6 am, people were told not to be here tomorrow. Recently in sussex I was told 24 hours to be off the beach or 500 pound fine

Were you told to move on by an official (as opposed to an angry member of the public or self-appointed guardian) and is there a TRO/by-law in force at this spot? If the answer to the former is yes and to the latter is no then it would be the first example I have heard of and I would be very interested to hear on what basis they thought you should move.
 
success

I apologise to those interested who had to read through 17 pages, like I had to, and had no idea this would go to all those pages. after all, its just a little layby...

The good news is , thanks to andy **********....... all these illegal signs are being removed. I am here tonight to check on the progress.

Although now in a retirement age, I only use the one location, I wanted several locations challenged, for the next generation. I wanted whatever grand kiddies I might have, or my neighbours, and theirs, to enjoy the freedom, all of my generation had...the freedom to play music on the beach, cast a few rods out, have a good deal of friends around, have burgers and sausages on the bbq, fall asleep when needed, wake up next day to breakfast on the bbq.... no neighbours nearby.....nearest neighbour is 0.7 miles..........This was not possible for 10 years because of the illegal or enforceable signs.

I have always been a passive and submissive person......and sadly always took the easy path / route.......submit/ accept.

Having been humbled by andys motto..........you deserve what you get cause you do nothing about it.......you just accept cause its the easy route.......

He was so right........but I just didn't know how to stand up for myself or to question.....I mean .one just does not question the police or council or anyone who is a man..

I am a new person........or trying to be......traveling recently from sandbanks to all along the coast line....back home......challenging the signs.......with andy giving me advise.........

I come home to find...... signs are being removed...........

Please be courageous when you feel you cant be.... Do take that first step....especially if you are a female/male traveling alone. It takes the first step to make you be courageous about other areas in your life....
Because I felt so passionate about this layby......and was determined to do something about it....with assistance, it has given me courage to challenge other areas in my personal life.....and I am a stronger person all round.
 
An interesting solution - and it got me thinking. Has anyone ever been told to immediately move on by any Council official - other than where there is a specific TRO which would apply to all, traveller or not? I know of no-one, so does the problem really exist?

well ,i have traveled this land of ours in cars ,vans ,and our motor home we had since the late 60s ,up to a few years ago .we have lived in our last van aswell for nigh on two years .and at no time were we told to move on ,by the council/police or for that matter locals that lived in houses close to where we parked up .we parked in local housing estates ,lay byes and public car parks, town centers, middle of nowhere , and industrial estates ,in fact if i could park i did do (we even overnighted once near to londons kings cross station a few years back ) anyway many had notices saying no overnighting or sleeping in vehicles ,no camping and no cooking in vehicles , and i have never been told to move on the only time i had any hassle was from ignorant boy racers ,and that was once only . if or when we get another van we will still keep on wild camping irrespective of notices that may or may not be there .personally i never looked for them . we always had one rule arrive late and leave early and leave no trace ,except our memories and of those we have many over the years .i think our first recollection of wild camping was in my uncles old scout bell tent ,on top of scalby mills cliffs at scarborough , when we were first married in the early 70s ,i even managed to get our old vauxhall HA viva that cost all of a fiver in 1972 to the top of the cliffs as-well ,god knows how .
there will always be wild camping available if we decide to ignore the notices that councils decide to put up.
 
No idea how many of you have ever looked at the TSRGD or the manual that accompanies it. There is a draft TSRGD out for "consultation" with release intended for 2015 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...hment_data/file/307150/draft-dft-circular.pdf
It's supposedly is about reducing sign clutter and does to remove regulations on signs One change is on terminal signs for speed changes. Expect to get nicked for speeding when you have no idea of a speed limit change. Another change isn't about the signs themselves but unless I've miss read things will make a big difference to parking restrictions.

Traffic orders
3.5 The requirement for an underpinning traffic order has been removed for the following:  Single or double yellow line waiting prohibitions  Stopping on school entrance markings prohibitions  Exception for cycles at no entry, mandatory turns, and left or right turn
prohibitions
 Mandatory cycle lanes
 
Camp sites

Makes me wonder sometimes when i read about all us camper van and motor homers who apparently fill are larders full to the brim with food from the shops in the area that we live in and fill up with fuel too.
I think common sense will tell you the more you put in your van the heavier it will be so the more fuel we use so the need to fill up when there is necessary. And as for filling up cupboards with tons of food which no doubt would mostly tinned and dry foods Don't think so?.

Back to the campsites that are apparently loosing money because of us selfish campers I wonder where the owners of these campsites the ones that have there own camping shops on site where we can buy over priced goods Do you think they go to the corner shops in their own little towns or villages to buy all their stock and help keep the local economy running Do they hell they go to the out of town wholesalers buy as cheap and sell expensively as possible. I know that when i go anywhere on my travels for a few days or weeks i use the cafes when sight seeing. use the pubs for food and drink use their petrol stations Their DIY shops, Their Souvenir shops, Their Fishing tackle shops, Spend £20-50 quid a day to fish on their waters use the local launderette.

Rant Over.
 
Back on Topic again.

The TSRGD prescribes the designs and conditions of use for traffic signs, (which includes road markings, traffic signals and pedestrian crossings), to be lawfully placed on or near roads in England, Scotland and Wales, with a limited number prescribed for use only in England or in Scotland.

The TSRGD contains all the signs that are prescribed to be erected on the highway. Local Authorities can also apply to the Secretary of State for approval of a sign that is not currently in the TSRGD. Only these signs can be displayed on the highway. The highway includes a band up to the building line or fence line or 15 yards from the road in the case of common land. Unofficial signs are therefor unlawful.

The TSRO contains a prescribed sign that used together with a P sign to indicate parking place for caravans towed by cars and Motor caravans.
uksi_20023113_en_073 Sign 804 3 Parking Place for Motorised Caravans or Caravans drawn by a moti.jpg

There is a prescribed prohibition sign prohibiting the parking of caravans towed by a motor vehicle.
uksi_20023113_en_041  622.7 Towed Caravans prohibited.jpg

There is a no waiting sign (Approved sign R) that has been approved for use in England. This sign is to prohibit the waiting for motor caravans, between certain hours.
Authorised Sign R  Motor Caravans Prohibited  Section 8.jpg Authorised Sign R  Motor Caravans Prohibited  Sign.jpg

Please note the words that are permitted, anything else is not. This sign is not approved for use in Wales or Scotland. This has been determined by use of FOI requests. Northern Ireland has its own regulations. Any new signs not conforming to this are therefor unlawful.

Motorhomes are strange beasts, not quite fitting into the law as it relates to cars.
Try finding anything to do with motorhomes in the Highway Code and you’ll be disappointed. But they are still road vehicles,

Responsible motor caravanners' will want to obey the law but it is sometimes hard to find out just what those laws are – and you may be surprised to learn that it can often be just as difficult for the enforcement authorities.

Legally, motorhomes do not quite fit into the law on cars, nor those on heavier vehicles, but lie somewhere in between. So what is a ‘Motorhome’? or ‘motor caravan’, or ‘living van’, ‘leisure vehicle’, or ’campervan’ for that matter? There is not even one agreed description in English for it!

They are defined under Directive 2002/24/EC as Special purpose, Motor vehicles with at least four wheels: Category M: used for the carriage of passengers

5. "Special purpose vehicle" means a vehicle of category M, N or O for conveying passengers or goods and for performing a special function for which special body arrangements and/or equipment are necessary.

5.1. "Motor caravan" means a special purpose M category vehicle constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:

- seats and table,

- sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats,

- cooking facilities, and

- storage facilities.

This equipment shall be rigidly fixed to the living compartment; however, the table may be designed to be easily removable.

So we have a situation where a Motorhome is a vehicle defined under the 1984/88 Road Traffic Act as a "motor car" if it weighs under 3050kg unladen or a "heavy motor car" of over that weight. However speed limits are defined for vehicle above or below 3500kg laden. Confusing! Speed limits relate to un-laden weight not laden.

The Department for Transport (DfT) vehicle stats, do not know either. When asked about the number of motorhomes registered in the UK I received the following data
Licenced 2014
March
Category 2014 q1
Missing 166,170
M1 10,464
N1 17,515
N2 1,884
Other 37,749
Total 233,782
SORN 37,634
Total 271,416

M! are passenger vehicles N1 and N2 are goods vehicles. Yet "Directive 2002/24/EC" specifies Motorhomes as Special Purpose, Motor vehicles with at least four wheels: Category M: used for the carriage of passengers. So what are "Missing" and "Other". They are obviously taxed, MOTd and Insured to be licenced. I have not used the individual figures for SORN.

Reading the vehicle categories there is no provision for Special Purpose, passenger carrying, goods vehicles.

Caravan sites are not what they were when set up under The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. This Act was amended in 1968 to accommodate units, larger than those that could be legally towed on the road and twin units. Sites have increasing been turned into parks for Static Residential and Holiday Units and increasingly now lodges. Their initial function as places for touring has been lost. However local authorities licence them as caravan sites. Many local authority official do not understand, or refuse to accept, that there is a difference. Some seem to think they are car parks for Motorhomes that you can just drop into or leave as you wish using the dump facilities on site with no need to book. Again this had become apparent from FOI requests.

Laws have been passed to regulate the Residential Parks and in Wales a move is afoot to do the same for Holiday Static Parks. However all if these new regulations define the unit as a caravan using most of the definition of a caravan in the 1960 Act.

The Highways Agency has issued a new circular defining the activities that can take place on Motorway Service Areas. This replaces the 2008 circular. The 2013 circular has removed the whole section from the 2008 on concerning motorhomes pars 81 to 84. This provided the possibility of MSA providing drinking water and waste (black and grey) water disposal facilities on MSAs. Again motorhome users have been disregarded by those drafting UK regulations.

Unless we make our presence felt we will lose more and more facilities.

Northern Ireland has an approved sign for motorhome facilities. This has been recommended for inclusion in the 2015 TSRGD

Motorhome Service Point Sign NI.jpg

This sign at present is not approved for use in the rest of the UK. Northern Ireland and the Republic now have Aire similar to the rest of Europe. The UK has no Aires with services only a few stopover locations, such as Hawick and Torridge.
 
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Makes me wonder sometimes when i read about all us camper van and motor homers who apparently fill are larders full to the brim with food from the shops in the area that we live in and fill up with fuel too.
I think common sense will tell you the more you put in your van the heavier it will be so the more fuel we use so the need to fill up when there is necessary. And as for filling up cupboards with tons of food which no doubt would mostly tinned and dry foods Don't think so?.

Back to the campsites that are apparently loosing money because of us selfish campers I wonder where the owners of these campsites the ones that have there own camping shops on site where we can buy over priced goods Do you think they go to the corner shops in their own little towns or villages to buy all their stock and help keep the local economy running Do they hell they go to the out of town wholesalers buy as cheap and sell expensively as possible. I know that when i go anywhere on my travels for a few days or weeks i use the cafes when sight seeing. use the pubs for food and drink use their petrol stations Their DIY shops, Their Souvenir shops, Their Fishing tackle shops, Spend £20-50 quid a day to fish on their waters use the local launderette.

Rant Over.

80% of Motorhomes are licenced for road use at any one time (DfT) vehicle stats. A maximum of 20% are SORNED in December of any year from 2011 to 3013. This drops to 11% in summer. Caravan sites are only open during a season normally Easter to October at the longest. This closed season is imposed on them, by the licence issued by the local authority. Abroad a lot of closed caravan site have Aire facilities open all year. Our local authorities don't want to know this.
 
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agree

Makes me wonder sometimes when i read about all us camper van and motor homers who apparently fill are larders full to the brim with food from the shops in the area that we live in and fill up with fuel too.
I think common sense will tell you the more you put in your van the heavier it will be so the more fuel we use so the need to fill up when there is necessary. And as for filling up cupboards with tons of food which no doubt would mostly tinned and dry foods Don't think so?.

Back to the campsites that are apparently loosing money because of us selfish campers I wonder where the owners of these campsites the ones that have there own camping shops on site where we can buy over priced goods Do you think they go to the corner shops in their own little towns or villages to buy all their stock and help keep the local economy running Do they hell they go to the out of town wholesalers buy as cheap and sell expensively as possible. I know that when i go anywhere on my travels for a few days or weeks i use the cafes when sight seeing. use the pubs for food and drink use their petrol stations Their DIY shops, Their Souvenir shops, Their Fishing tackle shops, Spend £20-50 quid a day to fish on their waters use the local launderette.

Rant Over.
I worked out this week, financially, I cant be on the road that often with current expenditure. I need to do some cut back money wise. Being single, I cant be bothered to cook...so with fags, breakfast, dinner at cafe out, bait for the day, replacement of a few fishing stuff etc, large bottle of water...works out at £30 min a day.
 
camp site

80% of Motorhomes are licenced for road use at any one time (DfT) vehicle stats. A maximum of 20% are SORNED in December of any year from 2011 to 3013. This drops to 11% in summer. Caravan sites are only open during a season normally Easter to October at the longest. This closed season is imposed on them, by the licence issued by the local authority. Abroad a lot of closed caravan site have Aire facilities open all year. Our local authorities don't want to know this.

There is a partition going around to sign/join up for an aire... once again

My last trip ...... with an energy problem in the van, i tried to get into a campsite. Had to drive some 80 miles inland .......every other campsite was full. Got there and they didn't have any electric hook ups.

Why are the council trying to get us to use campsites, when there are all full?
 
not sure

Were you told to move on by an official (as opposed to an angry member of the public or self-appointed guardian) and is there a TRO/by-law in force at this spot? If the answer to the former is yes and to the latter is no then it would be the first example I have heard of and I would be very interested to hear on what basis they thought you should move.

Sorry, not ignoring you, just not computer literate. pressed some buttons and your question came up.

I was told to move on officially... 24 hours notice , 12 people got the letter...i have a letter telling me so, delivered to me by hand. Don't think there is a tro .it mentions a seafront bylaw...which was not there when i got there the night before. They said. they saw me being there at 7 am. It was delivered about 4 pm when i was cleaning my fishing rods. ok. i was not fishing at 7 am .but how do they know? Suddenly there was a sign posted........and gaffer taped to the life saving ring. I have the copy of the ticket i was warned with and the thing gafferer taped the life saving ring. how do i post it on here? or send it to you.?
 
Sorry, not ignoring you, just not computer literate. pressed some buttons and your question came up.

I was told to move on officially... 24 hours notice , 12 people got the letter...i have a letter telling me so, delivered to me by hand. Don't think there is a tro .it mentions a seafront bylaw...which was not there when i got there the night before. They said. they saw me being there at 7 am. It was delivered about 4 pm when i was cleaning my fishing rods. ok. i was not fishing at 7 am .but how do they know? Suddenly there was a sign posted........and gaffer taped to the life saving ring. I have the copy of the ticket i was warned with and the thing gafferer taped the life saving ring. how do i post it on here? or send it to you.?

Hi

It looks as if they are claiming there is a by-law but a couple of things come to mind: did they give you the details of the by-law so that you can contact the council and check it out? And if the signage was not there (or not adequate) when you arrived then they cannot prosecute successfully. If a by-law or a tro are not in force then they cannot order you to move on and any notice will be illegal; if there is a valid by-law or tro then they probably can - but only if the signage is legal and adequate. Good luck.
 
In reply to an FOI request to Borough of Swale District Council which covers Shellness.

Matt Cotton
Service Coordinator
Parking Services
Swale Borough Council, Swale House, East Street, Sittingbourne, Kent ME10 3HT
t 01622 602376 f 01622 690721 w Home

No facilities are available for the parking of caravans / motorhomes / campervans in any off-street car park or on-street parking bay within the Borough of Swale; please refer to Car Parks

This is utter nonsense. Motorhomes are motor vehicles if under 3050kg un-laden they are Motor Cars under the Road Traffic Acts of 1984/1988. Above 3050kg unladed they are Heavy Motor Cars.

The Traffic Regulation Orders are here Traffic Regulation Orders
There are links to the on-street parking orders and off-street parking orders.


It would be interesting to see just what the notice justdoitviv received says.

If you could take a picture of it and post it on here, using the insert image (fourth from the right hand side of the second bar of icons) when you go to post. Use post from Computer. Also pictures of the notice.
 
Back on Topic again.

So we have a situation where a Motorhome is a vehicle defined under the 1984/88 Road Traffic Act as a "motor car" if it weighs under 3050kg unladen or a "heavy motor car" of over that weight. However speed limits are defined for vehicle above or below 3500kg laden. Confusing! Speed limits relate to un-laden weight not laden.

on the gov.uk site they say speed limits are above or below 3.05 tonnes unladen and don't seem to mention laden weight, I'm confused now, are they both really the same thing, I always thought my Fiat Rapido could go up to the normal national speed limits, but I'm not sure now if I can only go up to 50 and 60mph on single and dual carriageways

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
 
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on the gov.uk site they say speed limits are above or below 3.05 tonnes unladen and don't seem to mention laden weight, I'm confused now, are they both really the same thing, I always thought my Fiat Rapido could go up to the normal national speed limits, but I'm not sure now if I can only go up to 50 and 60mph on single and dual carriageways

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
If your vehicle is registered as a motor caravan then regards speed limits it is the tare weight, aka completely empty weight of the vehicle that is the deciding factor, but only if the maximum permissible weight is no more than 3,500 kg. This you will find on a small plate, usually under the bonnet.
 
The VIN plate shows Maximum Gross Weight (i.e. laden weight), but the allowable speed limits depend on "maximum unladen weight". So no, the figures on the Vin plate will not determine what you are allowed to do with your vehicle.
 
Interesting question, to which I know not the answer I'm afraid. "Maximum unladen weight" seems to be a definition used only for the purposes of UK statutory speed limits!

It could be the same as MIRO (mass in running order - often used by caravan manufacturers) or kerbweight as used by car manufacturers but assessed differently by different manufacturers - some French ones (Renault rings a bell?) include the driver and passenger I think whereas others don't, so the whole thing is a minefield.

The Fiat handbook tells me my van's kerbweight is 1900Kgs - but the Swift handbook for the conversion doesn't tell me what it is at all - I assume it won't be the same as it doesn't have the steel bodyshell that Fiat intended, but of course it does have lots of additional equipment.

The VIN plate shows Maximum Gross Weight as 3,000 Kgs and the V5C concurs - referring to it as the Revenue Weight (Gross).

I really don't know the answer - anyone else have any ideas?
 
well here is the plate on my iveco 59 c 12 which relates to 5.9 ton c twin rear wheels & 12 which is hp 120,but the replat by coach builder shows this picy. so what are my speed limits please
 

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