advice : on no overnight sleeping and caravans signs

[John H]

Hi John H

As you can see we live in Ireland but we come over a lot to the Uk - we are from Sunderland originally. but new to this motorhome/wildcamping thing from 2012. So when we find somewhere to park up I just wanted to know that we are not going to get moved on or arrested!!! :sleep-040:

Without been rude or objectionable to the person banging on your door , what is the best way to say F**K off.or sim.. if its the police !!

If a sign has no reference to a TRO then it is probably unenforceable - especially if it says something vague like "no overnight parking" - but I always take the view that I'd rather not park where I'm not wanted. My motorhome is precious and I don't want it damaged by a local with a grudge, whatever the legal situation. However, you have to make individual judgements and some remote lay-bys with signs are far from anyone who might be disturbed and if you park discretely no-one will bother you.

As for getting rid of people who might knock at the door I find that a good way of dealing with them is to apologise profusely, say you didn't see any sign telling you not to park but now they've drawn your attention to it you will certainly give it consideration. Then ask them to show you their identification so you know who you're talking to. They will, of course, have no such identification because there is nothing to enforce if you are on the public highway. The police will be highly unlikely to trouble you. I have several friends in the police and they all say they have better things to do with their time. I know of no-one who has been woken up by the police under these circumstances. Be discrete and polite and you will be fine, in my view.

 

[Deleted member 775]

when we had our van only times we had any interest from the police was in a roundabout way for them to scrounge a cuppa .if you are nice and give them a brew then you wont have any probs with them, and if you offer them a bacon sandwich then they will love you forever .

 

[JoMutch]

when we had our van only times we had any interest from the police was in a roundabout way for them to scrounge a cuppa .if you are nice and give them a brew then you wont have any probs with them, and if you offer them a bacon sandwich then they will love you forever .

Works with MOD police as well

 

[justdoitviv]

update

This morning the council has erected a couple of signs in a local layby saying. No overnight sleeping and caravans. Nearest campsite is XXXXXX

Can the council do this?

I feel quite upset about this as I have used this layby, right by the sea, for about 30 years. It is not near any houses. I spend at least a third of my time in this layby. It is popular with motorhomes in summer, and fishermen all year round. I had a feeling this was going to happen as last year the council men were knocking on the doors of motorhomes saying they cant sleep the night. Even though there were no signs. There has never been a problem with waste laying around or rowdy behaviour that I know of. Last year for the first time, two caravans parked there long term, and made themselves at home. But this was the first time. Down the road is heavily populated with campsites, and chalets.

The reason why I am upset about this is that I used to park by some lakes, quarter of a mile from my home as well, and then the council put gates on the path so no one can drive in any more. I also parked up the road on the sand banks. Then the council made it an expensive paying car park, with no overnight sleeping. I also parked up the road, by the cliffs opposite the beach, then that was made into a car park. No my last remaining place has no overnight sleeping.

I feel my freedom and rights have slowly been stripped away.

The council I heard had complains from the campsite, which is now advertised on the notice board, that he was loosing business. I can understand it with caravans, but not motorhomes as most have their own electric, and carry water, so don't need a campsite. Surely with all these councils doing this, people will stop buy motorhomes as what is the point if you have to book into a campsite.

Is there anything I can do about this?
Thanks

after two phone calls to the council, I am still waiting for them to inform me if they put up the signs. Weekly/daily, the signs are turned around facing different directions, and one has been pulled down. but there is a mystery here.!!!!!!!!!!! The sign states, under the no overnight sleeping bit, "your nearest campsite is Muswell manor, 300m ahead. " Well out of curiosity I called to find out the prices. They only have static caravans, and don't accept tourers.

 

[alcam]

Thanks for the feedback. If they did not provide detail of the traffic order, which I understand must be displayed on the sign, are the just huffing and puffing with no substance?

Scottish and English law differ . Does this TRO apply in Dundee ?

 

[champstar]

why would it apply in Dundee unless there is a specific TRO in force in that area for a specific spot

 

[maureenandtom]

I came across this thread and have read a lot of the pages ... not all ! I get the idea that this will not get sorted/ changed .. unless we try approaching to start with campsite owners maybe ! Asking / suggesting that if they feel they are losing out with motorhomes that if they say offer a refresh/top up services of maybe £5 ! Where we can drop toilets, and grey water and top up again.
My hubby and me like to - sometimes visit a town / city do some shopping, a bite and a few drinks then head to our bed. we find a lot of campsites are usually out of town and not a handy walk back. So maybe this way they may feel they are getting some business from us. Im not saying we don't go onto campsites but most of the time we like to free wheel.
Its a pity they don't realise that caravans mostly have to go to them but motorhomes don't always have to.

Also ... these signs that are legal and not is there any chance that a pic could be put on so that we might know what to look for !!

Now I guess this the start the thread up again !

Sometimes councils will erect signs which they have no legal right to erect. Like this council - North Yorks County Council.

The only way to know is to ask them; they will be unwilling to tell you and you may have to ask using the Freedom of Information Act.

It is up to you then to decide whether you insist that the council bows to legality and removes the signs or whether you shouldn't make them angry by doing so. I don't mind making them angry.

 

[maureenandtom]

I've never noticed them getting angry. Just insufferably smug about it. It's other motorhomers, some on here, who worry about coucnils getting angry. I've often been told we must not get councils angry or they will do something worse than erect illegal signs.

They might erect signs properly and with a legal process.

Now wouldn't that be awful? It would take all the fun out of wondering which are legal and which are not. Now wouldn't that be boring? Knowing that all our road signs meant what they said?

At least with legal process you get to have your say. Let them get away with doing what they want outside the rules and you don't have a say.

 

[maureenandtom]

Yes, I'm sorry - my inadequate attempt at irony. I've never grown used to the idea of using smileys.

Some councils have been told and some councils have removed illegal signs.

I have no idea how many illegal signs there are around the country but I think there are a great many and, I think, some are still, even now, being erected.

 

[landyrubbertramp]

Councils don't get angry as the staff are just that staff they arnt that bothered after all it's unlikely le they live in the area of the parking . They are just following policy or in most cases making policy up as cllrs do not hold them to account properly . Parking issues are mainly down to residents giving local council and thiers cllrs grief till thier is enough protest because of lost votes for the cllrs then they attempt to crack a but wit a sledge hammer and as shown in many cases illegally . They turkey in ppl not parking when they erect an illegal sign and they know that 99 percent of ppl will not challenge the sign legally . I'm the one percent that do and ignore illegal signs .

 

[Sharon the Cat]

There were reports of the council in Anglesey recently putting up no overnight parking signs in response to residents complaints. The usual campervans leave rubbish sort of thing.
This was enough to put us off spending our money there.
Why don't the councils tackle & prosecute the real problem - the litter louts, as I believe that there are already laws in place for this sort of problem?

 

[landyrubbertramp]

Hi Sharon the reason the council do not do enough to tackle litter and prosecute as even after a sussesful fine it costs the council more money a lot more than the fines worth and at the mommdnt it's all about money with the council also the person who drops the litter despite being in the wrong gets aggrieved stating thier are thrives and bank robbers yet they pick on me for a cig butt and tend from that moment be anti council with everyone esle from then on and vote if they do vote against which ever party controls the council . It's all about politics in afraid and hidden agendas

 

[justdoitviv]

out in the papers tomorrow

This morning the council has erected a couple of signs in a local layby saying. No overnight sleeping and caravans. Nearest campsite is XXXXXX

Can the council do this?

I feel quite upset about this as I have used this layby, right by the sea, for about 30 years. It is not near any houses. I spend at least a third of my time in this layby. It is popular with motorhomes in summer, and fishermen all year round. I had a feeling this was going to happen as last year the council men were knocking on the doors of motorhomes saying they cant sleep the night. Even though there were no signs. There has never been a problem with waste laying around or rowdy behaviour that I know of. Last year for the first time, two caravans parked there long term, and made themselves at home. But this was the first time. Down the road is heavily populated with campsites, and chalets.

The reason why I am upset about this is that I used to park by some lakes, quarter of a mile from my home as well, and then the council put gates on the path so no one can drive in any more. I also parked up the road on the sand banks. Then the council made it an expensive paying car park, with no overnight sleeping. I also parked up the road, by the cliffs opposite the beach, then that was made into a car park. No my last remaining place has no overnight sleeping.

I feel my freedom and rights have slowly been stripped away.

The council I heard had complains from the campsite, which is now advertised on the notice board, that he was loosing business. I can understand it with caravans, but not motorhomes as most have their own electric, and carry water, so don't need a campsite. Surely with all these councils doing this, people will stop buy motorhomes as what is the point if you have to book into a campsite.

Is there anything I can do about this?
Thanks

The council finally called me today, after the reporters called them, to say they did put the signs up, there is no tro, its only advisory and not enforceable. The local parish requested the signs put up to help the local businesses (campsite down the road), and because of environmental issues like rubbish. He couldn't comment on the cost of these signs or if the money came from rate payers, or the fact that environmental health workers were knocking on peoples doors at 6am telling them they cant park there, and must use the campsite, as its different council departments.

So the story runs tomorrow in the local paper.

Campaigner Andy Strangway will be assisting on this matter, and my neighbours who are wild campers and local campaigners for Sheppey will be writing the emails and putting forward ideas of other possibilities for the layby .....like more bins. I am not good at official letter writing, and don't cope with stress well, and cant afford to upset the council as they issue me with my business licence every 5 years, so all I will be doing is research to see what other councils are offering for motorhomers, and forwarding them to my neighbour. For this I have started another thread asking for links.

Thank you all for your help. I will post any developments which have been achieved, (or not) although it might take a while as I have a feeling nothing gets done quickly when dealing with the council.

 

[landyrubbertramp]

Hi wints I was not referring to me lol I did have one cig at 15 and after one drag realised smoking was not for me lol

 

[Deleted member 38556]

I do not think the penny has dropped yet
Just retread what you have written

You use a layby. And other parking areas. For years
Then you wonder why the council has put up restriction signs


Just may be you have over stayed your welcome just a little

I wild 90% of the time. I do not stay at one spot I move on
It's the gypsies in large groups staying for weeks that get the places noticed. I find if you keep below the radar and don't over stay. People done go reporting to the council

This morning the council has erected a couple of signs in a local layby saying. No overnight sleeping and caravans. Nearest campsite is XXXXXX

Can the council do this?

I feel quite upset about this as I have used this layby, right by the sea, for about 30 years. It is not near any houses. I spend at least a third of my time in this layby. It is popular with motorhomes in summer, and fishermen all year round. I had a feeling this was going to happen as last year the council men were knocking on the doors of motorhomes saying they cant sleep the night. Even though there were no signs. There has never been a problem with waste laying around or rowdy behaviour that I know of. Last year for the first time, two caravans parked there long term, and made themselves at home. But this was the first time. Down the road is heavily populated with campsites, and chalets.

The reason why I am upset about this is that I used to park by some lakes, quarter of a mile from my home as well, and then the council put gates on the path so no one can drive in any more. I also parked up the road on the sand banks. Then the council made it an expensive paying car park, with no overnight sleeping. I also parked up the road, by the cliffs opposite the beach, then that was made into a car park. No my last remaining place has no overnight sleeping.

I feel my freedom and rights have slowly been stripped away.

The council I heard had complains from the campsite, which is now advertised on the notice board, that he was loosing business. I can understand it with caravans, but not motorhomes as most have their own electric, and carry water, so don't need a campsite. Surely with all these councils doing this, people will stop buy motorhomes as what is the point if you have to book into a campsite.

Is there anything I can do about this?
Thanks

 

[Deleted member 38556]

What is council TAX???

Not had any of that for years n years now

Lucky me !!!!

 

[FULL TIMER]

who said council tax what's that , does it come with a telly licence

how's it going Ian, looks like we'll be seeing you at Rutland we're out and about most of that week then heading to the Brandon Meet for a night or two

 

[John H]

Sometimes councils will erect signs which they have no legal right to erect. Like this council - North Yorks County Council.

The only way to know is to ask them; they will be unwilling to tell you and you may have to ask using the Freedom of Information Act.

It is up to you then to decide whether you insist that the council bows to legality and removes the signs or whether you shouldn't make them angry by doing so. I don't mind making them angry.

There is nothing illegal about putting up a sign saying "No Overnight Parking". It would be illegal if they attempted to impose a penalty but a deterrent sign is not illegal in itself.

As for knowing whether or not any sign has the backing of a TRO, then the answer is that if all it says is "no overnighting" then it doesn't. You don't have to do any research at all; the term "no overnighting" has no legal meaning. If the sign says no parking between the hours of xx and xx then it may have the backing of a TRO, which will usually be referred to on the sign and which should be publicly available from the council. Any attempt to withhold that information can be taken to mean that there is no TRO - if there were then the council would be only too willing to release it. Thus the picture is much clearer in reality than some would like us to believe.

And it has nothing to do with not making councils angry - simple common sense says that if you approach councils politely you are more likely to get what you want than if you attack them from the start.

 

[Firefox]

Yes, I wish people would stop talking about illegal signs.

They are not illegal just advisory, and everything was fine; we could ignore the signs in peace. Until that is, certain people have seen fit to meddle on the grounds of their own interpretation, for the sake of personal crusades. And some of those people have also been rude and confrontational to the councils.

A fine way to represent motor-homers, alienate councils, and ensure we don't get listened to for some time to come.

 

[John H]

I tend to agree with you that it is disreputable - and when I was a council leader I refused to sanction any such signs. My point, however, is that it is simply wrong to say they are illegal. You never win an argument by getting your facts wrong.

Further, since we all know those signs are unenforceable, do we really want to push councils into a corner where they use TROs as a first resort rather than a last one? I cannot see that would be of any benefit to us at all. This is not about letting councils get away with something; it is about doing what is likely to benefit us.