A long and mysterious tale

[maingate]

There is a thread on Motorhome Fun at the moment about staying for days in a car park. A MHF member (weejocky) is incensed at somebody doing this.

If that was you maureenandtom, he is the one who shopped you. Give him a good kick in the b*****ks.

 

[Kontiki]

The only grounds I could possibly see to you not being able to cook in your van on a car park is on safety grounds & that being very unlikely unless your motorhome was unsafe then you shouldn't be cooking anywhere. As for sleeping in your van just what is the problem, you aren't causing any harm & you aren't disturbing anybody. Just where is the difference from leaving your van in a car park with the blinds drawn to actually being asleep in the van Just what are they afraid of, your snoring disturbing the peace. I have no sympathy for anybody leaving rubbish or waste & think they should be prosecuted but thankfully no responsible motorhome owner would do this. I wouldn't condone anybody using a technicality to escape a fine for things such as speeding but in the case of sleeping in your own vehicle or as mentioned on another thread staying longer than 2 hours on a motorway service area then it's time we stood up to them.

 

[Tbear]

The only grounds I could possibly see to you not being able to cook in your van on a car park is on safety grounds & that being very unlikely unless your motorhome was unsafe then you shouldn't be cooking anywhere. As for sleeping in your van just what is the problem, you aren't causing any harm & you aren't disturbing anybody. Just where is the difference from leaving your van in a car park with the blinds drawn to actually being asleep in the van Just what are they afraid of, your snoring disturbing the peace. I have no sympathy for anybody leaving rubbish or waste & think they should be prosecuted but thankfully no responsible motorhome owner would do this. I wouldn't condone anybody using a technicality to escape a fine for things such as speeding but in the case of sleeping in your own vehicle or as mentioned on another thread staying longer than 2 hours on a motorway service area then it's time we stood up to them.

Kontiki

Very well said. I guess the reason behind all this has nothing to do with safety. People are cooking in their homes all around you, why not in their Motorhomes. Just an excuse to make life hard for the travellers, stop groups of them moving in and setting up camps and we have all seen the damage they course.

 

[lebesset]

I personally agree with most of the comments here ...except I agree with the 2 hour rule on motorway service areas

motorways are are high traffic area 24 hour roads , the areas are for people to stop and have a break ...if people are allowed to stop for long periods they will soon get blocked up

 

[Deleted member 3011]

Ah, right. Ok.

I'm struggling a bit to take this in, Tony.

Are you saying that we should be docile and just accept illegal actions by councils? I think you have been offensive and are being offensive and I'm truly struggling to understand what you're saying and why you're saying it.

Are you truly saying “If this is what the council says then, right or wrong, you'd better accept what they say. If they can't get their illegal way one way then they will get it in another and I'm frightened of them so you'd better do anything they say.”

I see you are a believer in the politics of fear. Tony, this is not the way. You must not be frightened of these people. We have already seen from another poster that height barriers are being challenged in a hgher court and they might not be allowed to erect barriers willy-nilly. But I take it, you would then be frightened of what they would do next.

I can't believe you think it is wrong to challenge them. To make them act within the law. I can't believe you think we make laws, rules, pay for administration and that, somehow, these people are untouchable. That goes deeply against everything believe in.

Your faith in Local Government has touched my heart. Please accept this token of my deepest sympathy.

Excessive use of the word "Offensive" and other similar protestations of having been wronged is a bit of a dead giveaway that the you don't have a valid argument.
If you can put forward a supposedly hypothetical scenario - or even a real one, then you should be tolerant of those putting forward a realistic result of following the path you have outlined.
Instead of being supposedly offended and falling back on ineffectual personal insults and pathetic sarcasm that advance your argument and your character not a jot, why don't you have a go at taking your scenario a bit further and discussing the likely outcome of larger scale civil disobedience - a sort of reductio ad absurdum argument - rather than just confining it to one piddling incident. If height barriers are not a logical outcome of improper use of public or private facilities, then why are there so many around - not only on your overcrowded patch, but in many places on the Continent as well.

 

[maureenandtom]

Interesting.

Why "improper"?

 

[vwalan]

we do have to condsider the words used improper , civil disobediance .
parking a m,home is not improper in a car park. a m,home is a car as defined in law. the civil disibediance .is a none starter as the authorities are already breaking some laws. they are the ones making improper rules and punishing improperly. shifting blame on to a motorist is not the way forward . as for hieght barriers there are laws that indicate they are discrimnating high vehicles . there is no reason to think they can or will stop improper use as rubbish throwers or indesirables can be in low height cars. or small pickups. some may say two wrongs dont make a right but the parking of a m,home is correct. there is only the one wrong . miss use of authority. and waste of public money making the signs and patroling the area giving incorrect penalty tickets . we can use the laws we have to stop this type of abuse by council officials . and we should .its about time uk people stopped letting these type of missuse of authority go on. stand now and question them .make them abide by the laws we have to.
cheers alan.

 

[maureenandtom]

Thank you Alan. I have to thank Tony for putting his finger, unwittingly, on the point of the whole mysterious tale.

It is my opinion, and I think it is a good opinion, that my use of the car park was proper. The notice was improper in that the council took on itself the right to display such a notice when it had no legal right to do so. We are under no obligation to obey an illegally displayed notice.

My evidence that the council notice is improper is at least three fold.

(1) There has been at least one other council who admitted that it had no legal authority to display such a notice. I published that evidence in this thread and the likelihood is that all such notices have no legality. Where's Channa when we need him?

(2) When challenged, they withdrew the attempt to fine me; they aren't normally in the business of issuing fines and withdrawing them, and

(3) the specific offence of “cooking, camping, sleeping” has been withdrawn from their list of offences.

Councils must, and I say MUST, not be allowed to make up their own rules. The rules are our rules; they are no more than the administrators of our rules and we, and they, forget this at our peril.

So, Tony or anyone else who thinks councils can do no wrong, I ask again, “Why improper?”

 

[vwalan]

its a bit like going to spain .i would never go now with out the ..........
instrution 08/v-74 de la dirrecion general de traffico relativa a las autocarananas ...............it was from the minister of interiour pere navarro olivella to all units of the agency. and it was made available to the public.
i have it in spanish and english . you can get it off the web. it was first put on by one of the spanish m,home clubs. it s ideal for waving in the face to the guardia and policea in spain. they usually leave me alone or even show me to a better place to stay. cheers alan.

 

[Kontiki]

I personally agree with most of the comments here ...except I agree with the 2 hour rule on motorway service areas motorways are are high traffic area 24 hour roads , the areas are for people to stop and have a break ...if people are allowed to stop for long periods they will soon get blocked up

I can't see that the motorway parking areas would get blocked up, after all who would want to stay longer than necessary at a motorway service station. At night time they are relatively quiet anyway.
2 hours is hardly enough to have a decent break if you are tired, there are sometimes very few service areas on some motorways.

 

[bill2b]

I personally agree with most of the comments here ...except I agree with the 2 hour rule on motorway service areas

motorways are are high traffic area 24 hour roads , the areas are for people to stop and have a break ...if people are allowed to stop for long periods they will soon get blocked up

Yes but when we came back from France last year after a glorious 10 days of free motor homing (and car racing) we were due to catch the late ferry and we decided to stop somewhere in UK to have a sleep, well all the laybys and a lot of the roads from Kent were full to the brim of (mostly foreign lorries) in fact we never found a layby with any room in it till Grantham but by then we only had 20 odd miles to go.
All the motorway signs tell you not to travel when your tired but then you are threatened with ridiculous charges if you dare to stay longer than 2 hours.

Its a disgrace the way our motorways are run and to say you support the 2 hour limit is complete b0llix

Its better to have a rest than drive tired, what would you do just drive on till you fall asleep and have an accident?

 

[bill2b]

PS
I'm with you Maureen and Tom

Well done

 

[tf bundy]

!

Maureen and Tom, I agree totally with you. We should never lay down and roll over for these petty officials. Your example is an inspiration to me, and one that I will test in the near future.

Remember this all who doubt Maureen and Tom's tale............ultimately, its all about money, thats all.

Money from fines, money from taxes that we pay at every single opportunity, money for the camp site owners who complain because we are not giving them OUR money to park in a particular part of the world, and who in turn pass on some of that money in the form of tax.

Those who believe that we should just "give in" have forgotten what life is all about, and I will tell you one thing, its NOT about petty minded officials enforcing pointless regulations. I have always resisted them, and I always will. Without meaning to sound all citizen smith, we are all equal in this life, its just that some of us (council officials) choose to try and rule us, note I say rule us, and not serve us. I believe that very few of those in power do so out of some civic duty, but out of ego and economic self progression. After all, who would want to rule the people?? A few may choose to serve, but they are very few and far between.

So, this is about money and lies, designed to bully and instill a sense of legal fear into us.
Well done Maureen and Tom, you have kept your values true. I applaude you.

"Power to the people" LOL, now I am citizen Smith!!

 

[Viktor]

An Excellent Thread!

Please Phil make this sticky so it appears at the top of the listings for attention.

 

[Admin]

Thread reopened

 

[maureenandtom]

My thanks to Phil for reopening the thread that I might make this, possibly, final post.

North Devon Motorhomes, trailers and motorbikes

"If your motorhome is under 3.500 kg and can fit within a normal parking bay, you are welcome to park in any car park, displaying a valid pay and display ticket."

 

[Tezza]

I think I would not pay, even though I knew full well that I was committing the offence if I did park there (assuming it is an offence, but does it have any legality). If they have their facts wrong i.e. the time of the alleged offence & you have a witness (your mother) then they can't expect you to pay up.

I would question what council official would be doing the job at that time of the night, unless he was actually on the 'clock' (this is working as a council official & paid to be doing the job at that time of night) the ticket has then been issued by just another member of the public who doesn't have any more right than you or me to put a ticket on your vehicle.

Weymouth council have one warden on call every night. Police see unauthorised parking and just give him a call

 

[Captain Biggles]

Here's one for our ED

I think that it's about time that we lobbied our M.P's and in addition drew up a list of 'Motorhome Friendly Councils' who we'd be pleased to promote buy staying and spending money there and a list of 'Motorhome Un-friendly Councils' where we would suggest that we do not stop and part with a single farthing (are they still legal tender now):cool1:

Here's one for starters a 'Motorhome Friendly Council' is Powys, they allow motorhomes to park in any of their Car Parks overnight from 6pm-8am totally free of charge with a limit of 1 night in summer & 2 nights in Winter. There's a good one in Brecon almost next to Morrissons, quiet, lit, safe and very handy for your all day breakfast at Morrissons nearby and of course the Town Centre.

These lists ought to be promoted and passed widely to anyone or any organisation in order to promote our cause and shame the 'Non-Motorhome Friendly Councils' into sunmission.

Just a thought Mr ED

Captain Biggles lane:

 

[Sharon the Cat]

I think that it's about time that we lobbied our M.P's and in addition drew up a list of 'Motorhome Friendly Councils' who we'd be pleased to promote buy staying and spending money there and a list of 'Motorhome Un-friendly Councils' where we would suggest that we do not stop and part with a single farthing (are they still legal tender now):cool1:

Here's one for starters a 'Motorhome Friendly Council' is Powys, they allow motorhomes to park in any of their Car Parks overnight from 6pm-8am totally free of charge with a limit of 1 night in summer & 2 nights in Winter. There's a good one in Brecon almost next to Morrissons, quiet, lit, safe and very handy for your all day breakfast at Morrissons nearby and of course the Town Centre.

These lists ought to be promoted and passed widely to anyone or any organisation in order to promote our cause and shame the 'Non-Motorhome Friendly Councils' into sunmission.

Just a thought Mr ED

Captain Biggles lane:

I wish I could give this some sort of mega-like

 

[maingate]

I wish I could give this some sort of mega-like

John Thompson (WC Member) and the TMCTO have been doing this for some time.

You can join the organisation and even give them a small donation to cover their expenses. They do this voluntarily and will obviously have some costs involved. As they are doing this on our behalf, the least we can do is join the organisation so that they represent a large number of motorhome owners and carry more weight.

Motorhome Tourism Organisation

I hope some genuine WC members do join but in my view, too many motorhome owners have no regard for anyone else but themselves, which results in the bad headlines we get.