A long and mysterious tale

[maureenandtom]

Well, yes. But it's a bit of a dilemma yes? Well, yes. I was guilty but I wasn't guilty of what I got a ticket for. Do you not think there's a bit of a difference? I remember my Mum giving me a little smack once. Sixty years ago and I still remember it. “What's that for?” I was outraged. “I haven't done anything!” “Well,” I remember her saying, “it's for when you do do something.”

The council can't just make up an offence NOW because of an offence that I know, but they can only suspect, I committed over the past few nights. Lots of people get suspected of lots of things; you can't just convict them because you suspect them. That way lies some sort of anarchic society. No, I don't think “done the crime. do the time” counts on this one.

But I see where you're coming from. I was guilty really, I just wasn't guilty when they said I was.

But, anyway, you would have paid up, yes? And you think I should pay up too. Yes, ok.

Alan. Yes, this was a genuine council parking ticket.

 

[Kontiki]

I think I would not pay, even though I knew full well that I was committing the offence if I did park there (assuming it is an offence, but does it have any legality). If they have their facts wrong i.e. the time of the alleged offence & you have a witness (your mother) then they can't expect you to pay up.

I would question what council official would be doing the job at that time of the night, unless he was actually on the 'clock' (this is working as a council official & paid to be doing the job at that time of night) the ticket has then been issued by just another member of the public who doesn't have any more right than you or me to put a ticket on your vehicle.

 

[Tbear]

I think I would not pay, even though I knew full well that I was committing the offence if I did park there (assuming it is an offence, but does it have any legality). If they have their facts wrong i.e. the time of the alleged offence & you have a witness (your mother) then they can't expect you to pay up.

I would question what council official would be doing the job at that time of the night, unless he was actually on the 'clock' (this is working as a council official & paid to be doing the job at that time of night) the ticket has then been issued by just another member of the public who doesn't have any more right than you or me to put a ticket on your vehicle.

One of the locals will have seen that you are camping there and complained. If it goes to court it is the local council tax payers will have to pay for it all and what have they done wrong. Don,t be one of those bl***y travellers and pay up before they hight restrict it for the rest of us.

 

[Kontiki]

He was not camping, he was sleeping in his vehicle. WIKI DEFINITION OF CAMPING even then not at the time that was on the ticket.
They will stick up height barriers whatever, to say that any of us are classed as 'travellers' (as in the sense of the type who park illegally & leave a load of rubbish) is way off the point.

 

[vwalan]

better not to pay and stand up and be counted . have you broke any laws . i think they may just be out of order .many authorities are . you cant trust them. we do still need more info though . have you checked up to see if they have a proper order . it will be documented somewhere. they cant ban it for all as its a car park. a m,home is a car . height barriers discriminate .it will be in eu court soon about height barriers . there are laws that we can use to protect us from shoddy authority. if you give in they win . the trouble is too many bacvk down . thats why authority gets away with it .yes sir thank you sir . toff cap . cheers alan.

 

[Tbear]

better not to pay and stand up and be counted . have you broke any laws . i think they may just be out of order .many authorities are . you cant trust them. we do still need more info though . have you checked up to see if they have a proper order . it will be documented somewhere. they cant ban it for all as its a car park. a m,home is a car . height barriers discriminate .it will be in eu court soon about height barriers . there are laws that we can use to protect us from shoddy authority. if you give in they win . the trouble is too many bacvk down . thats why authority gets away with it .yes sir thank you sir . toff cap . cheers alan.

Alan
If you want to challenge something then fine. You write a letter or make a phone call, have word, if you win then park up and enjoy. If you don,t then move on. Don,t try and get away with it winge if they catch you.
I agree it would be nice to have a bit more info, is this some private company trying it on? I suspect on this occasion a contract has been entered into with the local council and brocken.
Richard

 

[vwalan]

then write to the council tell them at the time you werent in the van .and you would like them to take you to court . tnhey wont . it costs to go to court. tell them you have abided by the sign . somewhere on here is loads of advice how to word it . i do my own. never tell them you were in it later the offence is at the time mentioned . so its not fair to pay. if thdey take you gtop court explain that you cant see the relevance of the excess charge . it seems excesive. and specialy as you wasnt in the vehicle at the time . if you were you would expect to be woken up and explained to. also you were visiting your mother have proof of her living close by. no court will do anything .i would be suprised if it went further . i think you would hear no more.the date on the ticket is 3 yr old is it still going on.

 

[maureenandtom]

PART FOUR

While working yourself up into a tantrum you read the parking ticket more fully and through the growing red mist you see that you haven't been fined for sleeping overnight; you've been fined for “Offence No 11” which you read on the back of the parking ticket – and on the notice board – is for the offence of “Cooking, sleeping, camping” - none of which you were actually doing at quarter past midnight because you were away at your mum's. And,don't forget this – overnight parking is perfectly legal.

Also you have a retentive memory and you remember seeing this:

Council powerless to ban camper vans (From Bournemouth Echo)


Briefly. A council wanted to discourage overnight parking by campervans so it displayed notices saying that overnight parking by campervans was forbidden. They failed to enforce this ban.

Local taxpayers complained about the lack of enforcement and the council had to come clean that they were only having everybody on. They had no powers for the ban and they had just pretended them as a deterrent. The council wanted its own way, had no right to it, but was ready to lie to get it. Was ready to spend tax-payers' money on notice boards to get it.

Is that not fraud? Is it not illegal to spend our money on projects they have no right to enforce? It's fraudulent to us in campervans and it is fraudulent to the local residents who think their council is acting legally and who wonder why we in campervans get away with it.

Perhaps by now you're feeling a bit outraged that councils can lie to their employers. That somehow they feel they can impose their own rules on us rather than what I think is proper and simply administer our rules on our behalf. See the difference? We don't do what they want. We pay them to do what we want. Our Rules. Administered on our behalf. Nothing to do with them what the rules are. They shouldn't just make them up like they did in this case.

Do you now say, with resignation, well you can't beat city hall and anyway, in all honesty, you were guilty really and you're quids in so you pay the fine.

Or do you have the tantrum properly? Tell the council you have no intention of paying their fine, that you will see them in court and they will jolly well have to prove they have the power to impose a fine. For good measure you tell them that countries have gone to war about petty government officials creeping about checking up on citizens at midnight and that you are looking forward to making all this public in court.

What do you do now? Pay up or take on city hall?

 

[vwalan]

dont mention anything you have told us go to court . been there done it won the case . forget wars we were (i wasnt too young)lied to then and lied to now. we must abide by laws so must they. you are dragging it out we shall play the game bu we win they lose . others pay because they either cant read or have no back bone and possibly would be shot by now.

 

[Deleted member 3011]

What do you do now? Pay up or take on city hall?

I think I already mentioned that the councils will have the last laugh against the bush-lawyers, opportunists and nit-pickers.

They will just install height barriers in yet another car park thereby seriously inconveniencing those who do do the right thing.

 

[maureenandtom]

Ah, right. Ok.

I'm struggling a bit to take this in, Tony.

Are you saying that we should be docile and just accept illegal actions by councils? I think you have been offensive and are being offensive and I'm truly struggling to understand what you're saying and why you're saying it.

Are you truly saying “If this is what the council says then, right or wrong, you'd better accept what they say. If they can't get their illegal way one way then they will get it in another and I'm frightened of them so you'd better do anything they say.”

I see you are a believer in the politics of fear. Tony, this is not the way. You must not be frightened of these people. We have already seen from another poster that height barriers are being challenged in a hgher court and they might not be allowed to erect barriers willy-nilly. But I take it, you would then be frightened of what they would do next.

I can't believe you think it is wrong to challenge them. To make them act within the law. I can't believe you think we make laws, rules, pay for administration and that, somehow, these people are untouchable. That goes deeply against everything believe in.

Your faith in Local Government has touched my heart. Please accept this token of my deepest sympathy.

 

[maureenandtom]

PART FIVE – THIS IS THE FINAL PART

Well, I had the tantrum. I declared war on the council. And I won. They cancelled the parking ticket. I don't know why; I didn't ask and they didn't tell me. I was on my way to France and didn't pursue it.

However, for the next couple of years when I visited my home town I just parked on the road outside relatives' houses and slept on the roadside. I kept a low profile and turned up late and left early.

I did the same a couple of months ago – again on my way to France. I stayed in my home town on a duty visit but this time a sadder duty visit to a grave and my visits home won't be so frequent in future.

By chance I walked through the car park where I offended and the same “No overnight sleeping” sign is there. However, I read through the list of offences and there is now no offence of “Cookng, sleeping, camping.” The offence has disappeared. Gone. It is no more. Can't be used.

So, it seems to me that although the sign prohibiting overnight sleeping is still there, it now has no teeth. There is now no offence number which can be listed to impose a fine.

It's my guess that the council had no powers to impose the fine they tried to impose on me. It's my guess that they didn't pursue me in court because their impotence would have been made public and I would have been found not guilty. Not guilty because the offence did not exist legally – there was nothing to be guilty of.

It's my guess that the council would not wish this to be made public because (1) they would have had to pay back every fine they had ever collected for Offence No 11 and (2) their entire parking policy becomes suspect. Which parts are legal and which parts are just made up? How would you know? They become completely untrustworthy when it comes to parking policy.

I think, but don't know for sure, that we can now park overnight with immunity from a fine. I think the council has been compelled to bow to legality but it still seeks to impose its will with an empty threat. A threat it has no legal power to impose for a rule it has not been given the legal right to make.

I think that, far from spoiling things for the rest of us, I was instrumental in forcing the council into a little legality. I think they now don't ban something they have no legal power to ban although still pretending they have the power. See! See! Not spoiling things for the rest of us; making things better.

So what will you do now? If you should visit my home town? Obey the notice? Ignore that part of the notice and obey the rest​ Agitate with the council as to why it seeks to impose a possibly illegal condition on its car parks?

Do you think this council is alone? Do all councils tell lies about what powers they have? Why aren't we all defying councils acting illegally? What do you think they would they do in France?


Why do you think France has all those Aires?


What do you do now? I'm truly interested. What?

 

[Tbear]

maureenandtom

I am very sorry to hear about your mother.
Three years later you still don't park in that carpark and you still seem very stressed about it. What sort of victory is that
Some of us are trying to change local councils minds about their attitude to motorhomes and people parking where they clearly asked not to is not helping.
After saying that, I in no way agree with the practice of private companies and individuals sending out fines for large amounts of money for people going over their time in a car park by 5 mins.

Richard

 

[maureenandtom]

maureenandtom

I am very sorry to hear about your mother.
Three years later you still don't park in that carpark and you still seem very stressed about it. What sort of victory is that
Some of us are trying to change local councils minds about their attitude to motorhomes and people parking where they clearly asked not to is not helping.
After saying that, I in no way agree with the practice of private companies and individuals sending out fines for large amounts of money for people going over their time in a car park by 5 mins.

Richard

Thank you Richard.

Then I'd like to join you in trying to change councils' minds. May I? What shall we do? I've already tried. If you look back at my posts you will see that I have been active in a minor sort of way. Copeland Council, Forestry Commission. Other things too. But now, if you tell me what you're doing, I'd like to help.

The evidence is that so far you haven't been successful. I have been. In what way was my appeal against my parking ticket unhelpful? It was successful. It must have been helpful. The offence was removed from the offence list. Why was it wrong to appeal? I'm lost. And waiting for enlightenment.

I'm not being a bush-lawyer or nit-picking or anything like that. I just want to know. Though I think that was just gratuitous abuse - not really meant.

 

[Tbear]

Thank you Richard.

Then I'd like to join you in trying to change councils' minds. May I? What shall we do? I've already tried. If you look back at my posts you will see that I have been active in a minor sort of way. Copeland Council, Forestry Commission. Other things too. But now, if you tell me what you're doing, I'd like to help.

The evidence is that so far you haven't been successful. I have been. In what way was my appeal against my parking ticket unhelpful? It was successful. It must have been helpful. The offence was removed from the offence list. Why was it wrong to appeal? I'm lost. And waiting for enlightenment.


I'm not being a bush-lawyer or nit-picking or anything like that. I just want to know. Though I think that was just gratuitous abuse - not really meant.

Abuse was not my intent in any way shape or form. If you want to help approach your council with a simple polite argument on why we should follow the French Aires system giving reasons for and against and posible profit and expenditure, benifits to the enviroment, etc. Find a posible site, consider sewage, drainage, fresh water and electric supply and don't be too offended by people telling you that you are having no success

 

[maureenandtom]

But you think we shouldn't appeal against parking tickets?

(Edit - Sorry, just being a little malicious. I know you agree with the appeals procedure and wouldn't want it abolished.

I do think we should use the approach you advocate and I have used it myself. Unsuccessfuly. And it needn't be our only route. My greates success using your method was with Copeland Council whose tourist people were with us all the way until they came up against their own parking people who thought their parking policy was carved into blocks of marble - unchangeable. )

 

[Tbear]

But you think we shouldn't appeal against parking tickets?

(Edit - Sorry, just being a little malicious. I know you agree with the appeals procedure and wouldn't want it abolished.

I do think we should use the approach you advocate and I have used it myself. Unsuccessfuly. And it needn't be our only route. My greates success using your method was with Copeland Council whose tourist people were with us all the way until they came up against their own parking people who thought their parking policy was carved into blocks of marble - unchangeable. )

You have a legal right to appeal anything you like.
Forgive my ignorance but does Copland come under the national parks rules if it does you may have more of a problem than I do. Even so, ask for help on here, some of the members have a wealth of knowledge. Appeal their decision

 

[vwalan]

we dont have to be a bush lawyer to know and look at law. i have very succesfully acted in courts to defend the rights of innocent drivers . there are laws the councils ,police etc must obey the laws .they are not imune . i play a part in many groups that stand up for correct obeying of the laws . we are here to obey and as a law abiding citizen you have rights . trouble is many run around doffing caps to authority and never realise they are being lead down the garden path. just make good investigations , it apears authority gets it wrong as many times as it gets it right . but still punishes the innocent. you could lose your job ,but nobody in authority loses theirs it was just an oversight. cheers alan.

 

[Tbear]

we dont have to be a bush lawyer to know and look at law. i have very succesfully acted in courts to defend the rights of innocent drivers . there are laws the councils ,police etc must obey the laws .they are not imune . i play a part in many groups that stand up for correct obeying of the laws . we are here to obey and as a law abiding citizen you have rights . trouble is many run around doffing caps to authority and never realise they are being lead down the garden path. just make good investigations , it apears authority gets it wrong as many times as it gets it right . but still punishes the innocent. you could lose your job ,but nobody in authority loses theirs it was just an oversight. cheers alan.

Hi Alan

I don't doubt for one second that some officials are prats and are happy for us to suffer because of there arrogance and incompetence but what I am looking for is laws, acts,etc that would help in a positive way, in the setting up of quality, safe, legal motorhome parking. Rather than just pi**ing them off by proving what prats they are. However please don't let me stop you doing it as its good to have a stick to beat them with if and when they don't listen.

Richard

 

[vwalan]

the laws are already there we dont have to change hardly any . we just have to make sure that they are implemented properly. you cant chage legislation easy and the answer is it could get changed for the worse. use todays legislation thats in place . i hope i explain it better putting it like this.