A long and mysterious tale

[maureenandtom]

PART ONE

This is a long and mysterious story. Because of this I'll tell it in several parts and I'd like to invite your comments. This is not a humorous story and the comments I hope to get are asked for in all seriousness.

Let's say you return to the town of your birth in your campervan , visiting parents and other family and suddenly, in the car park you are used to using you see this sign.

Do you say to yourself, perhaps, that people with knowledge and authority have decided that campervans should not be allowed here and immediately go off to book into a campsite? After all the people who live here should decide how the car parks they pay for should be used.

Or, do you say to yourself; this is completely unfair. Overnight parking is permitted; what's it got to do with anybody else what goes on in my car after I park up? All sorts go on in cars. I know, I got up to some of them. So do you ignore the sign, park up and go to sleep for the night? There's a whole lot of other offences listed separately but we needn't concern ourselves with them - they don't apply to us.

Do you, perhaps, see that overnight parking is permitted – it's just sleeping here that isn't - so do you park up anyway and go and sleep on your mother's sofa for the night? Or perhaps you park up overnight but go and book into a bed and breakfast place? Or maybe just unscrew the notice and put it in the nearest wheelie bin?

What do you do and what do you think I should have done.

 

[Tbear]

PART ONE

This is a long and mysterious story. Because of this I'll tell it in several parts and I'd like to invite your comments. This is not a humorous story and the comments I hope to get are asked for in all seriousness.

Let's say you return to the town of your birth in your campervan , visiting parents and other family and suddenly, in the car park you are used to using you see this sign.

Do you say to yourself, perhaps, that people with knowledge and authority have decided that campervans should not be allowed here and immediately go off to book into a campsite? After all the people who live here should decide how the car parks they pay for should be used.

Or, do you say to yourself; this is completely unfair. Overnight parking is permitted; what's it got to do with anybody else what goes on in my car after I park up? All sorts go on in cars. I know, I got up to some of them. So do you ignore the sign, park up and go to sleep for the night? There's a whole lot of other offences listed separately but we needn't concern ourselves with them - they don't apply to us.

Do you, perhaps, see that overnight parking is permitted – it's just sleeping here that isn't - so do you park up anyway and go and sleep on your mother's sofa for the night? Or perhaps you park up overnight but go and book into a bed and breakfast place? Or maybe just unscrew the notice and put it in the nearest wheelie bin?

What do you do and what do you think I should have done.

Check the POI file for another local spot?

 

[vwalan]

i would have several options .1 park up it doesnt say no m,homes.
2 sleep in your mums .
3 sleep but dont draw the curtains or something like that.
4 have a look at the rest of sign and see if it quotes a bye law that restricts sleeping etc .
is it a private car park or council. ?
ask around if anybody knows of a bye law.
may have difficulty staying as it appears they want money.
there is the option to go somewhere else. cheers carry on whats the catch.
cheers alan.

 

[David & Ann]

1. It does not state motorhomes are not permitted.
2. Now I am scoring points!!! Yes, you can sleep in the motorhome. I say this, as you are sleeping in your motorhome and not in the car park, where the sign does not mention motorhomes. Your being/body has no contact with the tarmac of the car park. Boy, is this complicating. One of you lads are going to give me some stick. I am signing off.

 

[Deleted member 3011]

Which part of the sign are you having problems understanding?


Next step will be height barriers so even the dumbest motorists don't have a problem deciding.

 

[maureenandtom]

Which part of the sign are you having problems understanding?


Next step will be height barriers so even the dumbest motorists don't have a problem deciding.

No need to be offensive, Tony. I hope to provoke a discussion. It would have been enough to say that you would obey the sign without question. I want opinions. Even of the whinging, petulant sort like "you'll spoil things for the rest of us." But not offensive, please.

However, I did say that it is a long and mysterious tale so on to Part Two.

PART TWO

Let's introduce some hard economic facts into the decision making process. On to Part Two of my long and mysterious tale.

Let's say you see that if you do stay in your van you might incur a fine of £50 if you get caught. However, if you pay this fine promptly it will be reduced to £25. As a pensioner used to budgeting you quickly calculate that local campsites will charge you £20 for the night (you've been told that's the price) and that if you get two nights sleeping here overnight before you get a ticket then you will have had two nights for £25 instead of £40 to a campsite showing a profit of £15 over the two nights. If you get more nights in before getting a ticket then you're even more in profit.

And it's late; you've been driving all day to get here. You reckon they can't have car park wardens on the night shift. Also you know that car parking has been decriminalised so the police won't bother you.

Does this make up your mind to stay overnight and use the profit for something more interesting. Some flowers for your mother, perhaps.

Or do you think that if you park here you'll maybe spoil things for the rest of us (people are always saying that) so do you spend that £20 on a campsite. You're going to be in your home town for a week; that's £140 for the week to a campsite owner? For a parking place! That's £40 more than a week's state pension.

But what now? Do you stay overnight and accept the ticket with good grace and without rancour if you get one? What will you do when the rest of us say, “You b*?&%$£, you'll spoil things for the rest of us?”

Tell me please. What do you do now? I reckon you're going to stay. That's what I'm going to do.

 

[Tbear]

No need to be offensive, Tony. I hope to provoke a discussion. It would have been enough to say that you would obey the sign without question. I want opinions. Even of the whinging, petulant sort like "you'll spoil things for the rest of us." But not offensive, please.

However, I did say that it is a long and mysterious tale so on to Part Two.

PART TWO

Let's introduce some hard economic facts into the decision making process. On to Part Two of my long and mysterious tale.



Let's say you see that if you do stay in your van you might incur a fine of £50 if you get caught. However, if you pay this fine promptly it will be reduced to £25. As a pensioner used to budgeting you quickly calculate that local campsites will charge you £20 for the night (you've been told that's the price) and that if you get two nights sleeping here overnight before you get a ticket then you will have had two nights for £25 instead of £40 to a campsite showing a profit of £15 over the two nights. If you get more nights in before getting a ticket then you're even more in profit.

And it's late; you've been driving all day to get here. You reckon they can't have car park wardens on the night shift. Also you know that car parking has been decriminalised so the police won't bother you.

Does this make up your mind to stay overnight and use the profit for something more interesting. Some flowers for your mother, perhaps.

Or do you think that if you park here you'll maybe spoil things for the rest of us (people are always saying that) so do you spend that £20 on a campsite. You're going to be in your home town for a week; that's £140 for the week to a campsite owner? For a parking place! That's £40 more than a week's state pension.

But what now? Do you stay overnight and accept the ticket with good grace and without rancour if you get one? What will you do when the rest of us say, “You b*?&%$£, you'll spoil things for the rest of us?”

Tell me please. What do you do now? I reckon you're going to stay. That's what I'm going to do.

Hi maureenandtom
At risk of repeating myself, check the POI file for a close alternative.
Richard

 

[vwalan]

in fact i cant make a decision as there is more to the sign .i need to see more info. its decieving us to just show that part of the sign. at the moment we have already to believe you are visiting your mother but we trust you so without the rest of the sign we cant really carry on giving ideas.
tony .there are many signs in the world that have no value or meaning legally .infact many are illegal and shoulnt be there to start with. big brother needs watching. authority is the biggest trickster out there . more info please .cheers alan
i do get involved with this sort of thing very often and very ofter find the sign is a bluff .

 

[maureenandtom]

You haven't got SatNav. It's out of order or you're a free member and haven't access to it or it's late and you're tired. Unfortunately, that isn't an option.

Don't forget, overnight parking is perfectly legal here. It is permitted under the rules. The notice says, "No Sleeping". And even sleeping is allowed - but not "Overnight Sleeping." Who is to know you've got your head down. Other than you, of course.

It's you and your conscience.

 

[maureenandtom]

Alan,

Sorry, I posted at the same time as you. You're right. If you obey completely every sign you see then you would never park outside my house because I'd put a sign up.

So, more please. So far, I've decided to stay overnight.

 

[maureenandtom]

The rest of the sign. Actually, it is the rest of the sign is it was a couple of months ago. I may have a copy of the sign as it was at the time but I lost a lot of pictures about a year ago. I'll search for it.

By null at 2010-10-24

 

[Tbear]

You haven't got SatNav. It's out of order or you're a free member and haven't access to it or it's late and you're tired. Unfortunately, that isn't an option.

Don't forget, overnight parking is perfectly legal here. It is permitted under the rules. The notice says, "No Sleeping". And even sleeping is allowed - but not "Overnight Sleeping." Who is to know you've got your head down. Other than you, of course.

It's you and your conscience.

Maureenandtom,

First grumble at wife for not bringing a working sat nav
Second get out, fresh air,wake up, look at rest of signs, good scan of local area, speak to mum, make decision!
As the sign was was put up by someone who is a bit anal, to have so much detail. I have a feeling that a traffic warden will be around every half hour or never so mum should know best. Has she ever seen a ticket/clamp on a car or van?

Richard

 

[wildman]

first let me say there is always someplace to park other than a carpark, however back to the sign, none of the contraventions listed include sleeping in a legally parked and paid for parking space. So I would say the no camping is a bluff with no specific local byelaw to prohibit it.
Me I'm sleeping on mums couch, you want to sleep there, then go ahead.

 

[maureenandtom]

True, there's always somewhere else to park. So if you sleep on Mum's sofa - where do you park the van? It's perfectly legal to park overnight even right under the notice. So leave it there? Other people leave their cars there overnight so your van should be safe there on its own.

Seems a bit much to leave the van there all alone. Unprotected. Full of a television, satellite equipment - all the comforts of home, in fact - all your nice things.

I have found the original photograph of the contraventions but it's blurred and not fit to be shown. However, it's just like the modern one except that the orginal had one more contravention "PCN 11 - Cooking, camping, sleeping."

 

[vwalan]

a motor home is a car definition category m1. so why not park in a car park and give who ever loads of grief. but carry on we still need more info . who put the sign up is it local authority or private and did you getr a ticket .tell us as we may be able to help you. one of my specialities arguing with authority. so far have never lost.

 

[Airecraft]

An interesting post. I no longer take any notice of No Overnighting signs unless they are legally sound, showing penalties. When the 2006 Golf Open was staged near my house the council put up "no overnight parking for MH" signs. When I rang them to complain that I couldn't park my MH outside my own house they said to ignore the signs which had no weight in law. I no longer take any notice of No Overnighting signs unless they are legally sound, showing penalties.As this one does I personally wouldn't park there but agree with the economics of a multi night stay and a single fine. The only reasons I can see for these restrictions is envy, campsite greed or resentment of someone getting something for nothing - none of which are valid, IMHO.

 

[maureenandtom]

PART THREE

And this is where the story turns a little more sinister. I had stayed four nights – turning up late, leaving early. I was quite unobtrusive. But I was quids in, right? It would be £25 for the fine but £100 not spent on campsite fees. This was a total of five nights. Yes, I know - pushing it a bit.

But yes, I did get a ticket. This one.

And you see that the parking attendant wrote out the ticket at quarter past midnight having observed me peacefully sleeping at eight minutes past midnight.

Do you think that perhaps we have here a nice man to have let you sleep the night away when he could have woken you and sent you on your way. In the dark. Oh, what a nice man.

But then you think, hang on, I didn't get in until well after midnight. I was out visiting my mum, wasn't I? Didn't get back until about one.

Do you think that; well hang on, maybe that nice man did bang on the door. Maybe he got no reply. Because you weren't there. Maybe he thought to himself that he might as well give you a ticket anyway even though overnight parking is allowed – it's just overnight sleeping that isn't. And that overnight sleep won't have been completed by midnight anyway. So there has been no offence at eight minutes past midnight. But if you pay it then you're guilty, aren't you? Paying it is admitting it.

Do you think to yourself that there might be something wrong with a society which has parking attendants, who are petty officials working for us, the public, creeping around issuing parking tickets at midnight? Do you think it stinks? Some manager, maybe, put on some overtime just to catch you and not caring whether you're there or not or whether you are guilty or not? No need to prove anything, just issue a ticket. Or, perhaps some would-be little Hitler going home from the pub and just happens to have the parking ticket pad in his pocket and sees an opportunity to bump up his quota?

What do you do? Do you count up how much you're in profit, smile sweetly and smugly, and pay up? Or do you have a tantrum?

 

[vwalan]

me .i wouldnt pay . but i still say i need to see more of the ticket to know if its a private one or a council one and then make a search to see if the order is legal. looks like it isnt from what i see . but cant be certain. dont like the term excess payment. i ould have wrote a letter saying i wasnt asleep in the vehicle . it was parked . in a car bay . as permitted and i was not camping etc . anyway carry on . some think mines a lorry but i can prove its a light car and caravan. if i want t o. sometimes its nice to be a lorry . i wear different hats when it suits me .ha ha cheers alan.

 

[Kontiki]

If you have all the blinds drawn & are making no noise, how does anybody know you are in there? Also you say the fine was for overnight sleeping how could they prove you were asleep, I'm a bit hard of hearing & mightn't here anybody knocking on the door, I have the blinds drawn for privacy BUT am I asleep.

Often if we park on a car park day or night we will draw the blinds if we are leaving the vehicle. As you could be sleeping on your mums couch (assuming she will back you up) ask them to prove you were in the vehicle at the time they stated.

Another point - what is the actual definition of overnight?? If I arrive after midnight then it is early morning so am I overmorning not overnighting When does morning start in the eyes of the law. I do tend to take notice of signs saying no overnight parking or sleeping in vehicles, signs just saying no camping I often ignore as I am not camping just parking overnight.

The whole fiasco is a bit ridiculous, I can park legally up to a certain time but then after a magic hour at night I am committing an offence even if I have paid any amount requested.

 

[Tbear]

You did the crime now do the time. Have the good grace to pay up and move on.