No Gaslow or Health & Safety vigilantes.REFILLING PROPANE

[Deleted member 207]

Just a quick question.

Do the UK bottles have a bleed screw on the valve?

Bottles in Australia and elsewhere I've seen have a bleed valve which is connected to a little tube that goes down inside the bottle to the 80% full mark. When filling the bottle and opening the bleed valve you get liquid coming out when you hit 80%, close both valves and hey presto an 80% filled bottle. Just the problem of escaping LPG on a servo forecourt with copious amounts of ignition sources.

 

[biggirafe]

Just a quick question.

Do the UK bottles have a bleed screw on the valve?

Bottles in Australia and elsewhere I've seen have a bleed valve which is connected to a little tube that goes down inside the bottle to the 80% full mark. When filling the bottle and opening the bleed valve you get liquid coming out when you hit 80%, close both valves and hey presto an 80% filled bottle. Just the problem of escaping LPG on a servo forecourt with copious amounts of ignition sources.

No they don't, The forcourt pump will pump until the pressure in the cylinder reaches the max set by the pump, Not accurate at all, temperature and the setup of the pump all make a difference so its possible for the bottle to end up completley or very near to full.

The usual practice by those filling these bottles is to completley empty the bottle and measure in by volume the correct amount for the size of bottle.

Which is fine for those with a brain Sadly the gadget that was available on ebay could be bought by those devoid of a brain , The twat that overtook me on the motorway towing a caravan in the outside lane at 90mph has probably got one

 

[lebesset]

the real danger in european temperatures is that if you overfill you might get some liquid propane up the pipe to your appliances ; a decided no no ; I know it isn't likely but it could in theory happen
out of interest I once filled a bottle until the pump wouldn't put any more in [ I hasten to say I didn't use it on the motorhome ] ; pump gauge showed it gave 10 bar pressure [ test pressure on bottles is 30 bar ]

simple arithmetic showed it to have filled to 86 % ; calor say they fill their bottles to between 80 and 87 %

has anyone ever accurately weighed a full gas bottle , then weighed it again when empty to see how much gas they ACTUALLY had purchased ...maybe it is my nasty suspicious mind but it sometimes seems to me that you don't always get what you pay for !

 

[biggirafe]

the real danger in european temperatures is that if you overfill you might get some liquid propane up the pipe to your appliances ; a decided no no ; I know it isn't likely but it could in theory happen
out of interest I once filled a bottle until the pump wouldn't put any more in [ I hasten to say I didn't use it on the motorhome ] ; pump gauge showed it gave 10 bar pressure [ test pressure on bottles is 30 bar ]

simple arithmetic showed it to have filled to 86 % ; calor say they fill their bottles to between 80 and 87 %

has anyone ever accurately weighed a full gas bottle , then weighed it again when empty to see how much gas they ACTUALLY had purchased ...maybe it is my nasty suspicious mind but it sometimes seems to me that you don't always get what you pay for !

I expect your suspicions are well founded

We were out recently with the local DA of the C&CC, I was surprised by the number of caravans with Gaslow and similar refillable bottles. I had not expected that as I would think they would need to put the bottles in the car to be able to fill them unless they know of a garage where they can get the van in and out the pump.

But when chatting with one guy they have the same discussions as us and he says that the price of gas and ease of filling in europe makes it a no brainer even if it is a little more hastle for them. Nice to know the same discussions go on elsewhere.

 

[Deleted member 3802]

not going to take part in the argument but have filled my bottles for a long time i have three 6KG bottles as one comes empty i turn it on and leave it upside down,we use lpg on the house so when i go to pickup the 47kg bottles the guy fills my 6kg /12 lts @52p a litre £6ish,

 

[maingate]

As Arthur has pointed out, it is cheaper to get LPG for heating purposes because the VAT rate is a lot lower than for use in engines on the road.

 

[Deleted member 207]

No they don't,

When the bottles reach their 10 year hydrostatic test how would they void the air/gas in the tank?

 

[jogguk]

Just a quick question.

Do the UK bottles have a bleed screw on the valve?

Bottles in Australia and elsewhere I've seen have a bleed valve which is connected to a little tube that goes down inside the bottle to the 80% full mark. When filling the bottle and opening the bleed valve you get liquid coming out when you hit 80%, close both valves and hey presto an 80% filled bottle. Just the problem of escaping LPG on a servo forecourt with copious amounts of ignition sources.

Most American RV's with fixed LPG underfloor tanks have this bleed valve, I believe it is called a "ullage valve" (sp?). Owners do not seem to have any problems with this simple overfill indicator. However, it relies on you or a helper being able to "see the bleed valve" while having your finger on the pump start button.

--John

 

[Geoff.W]

The usual practice by those filling these bottles is to completley empty the bottle and measure in by volume the correct amount for the size of bottle.

And therein lies the problem!

All proffesionally filled cylinders are filled by weight not volume, a standard propane cylinder is filled and sold with 13Kg of propane not 26Ltrs.

The problem with "flow" type meters is that they can and do go wrong, I can recall at least 2 occassions when I strongly suspected that I received a great deal more gas than the meter registered (or I paid for), on 1 occassion I would think I was charged for less than half of what I actually received.

With a 80% cut off valve this is not a problem and my gain, WITHOUT

To also correct another point that has been made in this thread, provided that the cylinder contains some liquid the pressure inside the cylinder will remain constant and will only change with temprature. ie. pressure at 20% liquid content will be the same as pressure at 80% liquid content.

(Note:- Unless evacuated the cylinder is always full it is only the liquid to gas ratio that alters)

Anyone who claims that any sort of pressure limiter makes filling safe is quite simply lying.

 

[Geoff.W]

When the bottles reach their 10 year hydrostatic test how would they void the air/gas in the tank?

Think relative density.

 

[biggirafe]

A
To also correct another point that has been made in this thread, provided that the cylinder contains some liquid the pressure inside the cylinder will remain constant and will only change with temprature. ie. pressure at 20% liquid content will be the same as pressure at 80% liquid content.

Hi Geoff
Ah interesting, so out of curiosity how does the forcourt pump know when to turn off? And given the oportunity would it fill the bottle to the brim? I remember reading somewhere in one of these threads that there was a cut off on the pump to prevent overfill

Personally the thought of liquid propane squirting out of the cooker and expanding to its natuaral state was enough to make me go out and spend the £100 on a proper refillable cylinder.

 

[Deleted member 3802]

As Arthur has pointed out, it is cheaper to get LPG for heating purposes because the VAT rate is a lot lower than for use in engines on the road.

52p is the pump price, i pay £34 for a 47kg bottle =94lts=36p a lt

 

[Geoff.W]

Hi Geoff
Ah interesting, so out of curiosity how does the forcourt pump know when to turn off? And given the oportunity would it fill the bottle to the brim? I remember reading somewhere in one of these threads that there was a cut off on the pump to prevent overfill

Hi Mark.

Inside the cylinder there is a float valve (like the ball cock in a toilet cistern), when this reaches the level equal to 80% fill it shuts of the inlet, causing an increase in pressure in the fill pipe which triggers the pump switch.

 

[AndyC]

Hi Geoff
Ah interesting, so out of curiosity how does the forcourt pump know when to turn off? And given the oportunity would it fill the bottle to the brim? I remember reading somewhere in one of these threads that there was a cut off on the pump to prevent overfill

It cuts off when the cylinder pressure reaches the pump cut off pressure. If the pump is running fairly fast it may cut off while there is still a bit of LPG in the gaseous state, inside the cylinder, that hasn't 'condensed' to liquid.

Personally the thought of liquid propane squirting out of the cooker and expanding to its natuaral state was enough to make me go out and spend the £100 on a proper refillable cylinder.

In my 'day job' I once saw a boat that had a couple of liquid offtake propane cylinders fitted to the gas supply. The owner had 'got them cheap', they were designed for fitting to a forklift. The liquid propane was getting into the regulator and evaporating there causing it to ice up, and the flames on the cooker were a foot high...

He'd complained that the gas supply seemed 'a bit erratic'

AndyC

 

[Kontiki]

I remember in the late 80's when we live in California we had a VW camper that had a small refillable tank. When we had it refilled the pump attendant would connect it up with a couple of spanners then open the bleed valve, when liquid came out of the bleed valve he would stop filling. During this time we would have to stand a safe distance away. Never knew anything about 80% filling then but obviously whoever fitted the tank knew about it.
We also had a Chevvy Malibu that run on LPG & petrol (absolutely useless couldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding) again with that we had to all get out of the car & stand some distance away while the attendant would fill it up how times have changed.

 

[lebesset]

marknnicole

have you ever actually been inside a bottle filling station , may I ask where ? accurate system ? what a joke ; I have been in more than one country and watched the operatives at work ...near enough is good enough , natural enough if you had to stand there squirting gas into bottles all day
btw , I never saw a bottle tested ! off the truck and onto the line

if you don't believe me try the ...weigh full bottles then weigh when empty , you won't get exactly the same amount twice

on the other hand the lpg pumps are precise , they are regularly tested by law , just like petrol pumps ; the electric pumps are only capable of pumping at a maximum pressure of 10 bar , so can only pressurise your bottle to that pressure ..naturally ,it pushes back ; no way can you fill a bottle 100% ; with a test pressure of 30bar that is hardly dangerous !

personally having had , as I stated once before , three 80% cut off floats fail , I stick to the safe method of just filling with the design quantity

if mr boyle read some of these posts he would turn in his grave !

 

[Deleted member 775]

well been loking through this and other posts of similer ilks. it is posible to decant from one bottle to the other and also to refill an empty bottle but it is also possible to blow yourself to kingdom come we fulltime and use gas for heating and cooking the only way realy it is expensive but it is safe dont mess and try to save a few quid live and enjoy life

 

[biggirafe]

Hi Mark.

Inside the cylinder there is a float valve (like the ball cock in a toilet cistern), when this reaches the level equal to 80% fill it shuts of the inlet, causing an increase in pressure in the fill pipe which triggers the pump switch.

Ah yes this is with a refillable bottle such as Gaslow which i have, but how do they work with a non refillable bottle using the adapter you can buy on ebay

 

[biggirafe]

marknnicole

have you ever actually been inside a bottle filling station , may I ask where ? accurate system ? what a joke ; I have been in more than one country and watched the operatives at work ...near enough is good enough , natural enough if you had to stand there squirting gas into bottles all day
btw , I never saw a bottle tested ! off the truck and onto the line

if you don't believe me try the ...weigh full bottles then weigh when empty , you won't get exactly the same amount twice

on the other hand the lpg pumps are precise , they are regularly tested by law , just like petrol pumps ; the electric pumps are only capable of pumping at a maximum pressure of 10 bar , so can only pressurise your bottle to that pressure ..naturally ,it pushes back ; no way can you fill a bottle 100% ; with a test pressure of 30bar that is hardly dangerous !

personally having had , as I stated once before , three 80% cut off floats fail , I stick to the safe method of just filling with the design quantity

if mr boyle read some of these posts he would turn in his grave !

hi lebesset

Yes I have in Southampton there is a big plant, In this country its very accurate when done correctly, The operator enters the full weight of the bottle from the tag around the neck and the machine fills until it hits that weight. I'm sure they have a tolerance that it has to be between so no its never going to be spot on and bottles weigh different amounts so no 2 can be the same, Not really interested in what they do in other countries tbh there are plenty of countries around the world where you can kill yourself thru bad practice thankfully we know better, or I thought we did

IMHO relying on people to calculate themselves how much to put in is a bit hit and miss, as said before I'm sure many such as yourself are safe doing this but not everyone is capable or safe and thats why it should not be allowed.

As far as I can tell and until someone tells me different there is nothing to stop a forecourt pump filling a normal the bottle to the top or near enough so the potential is for liquid propane to come out when you use the bottle.

You say you've had 3 x 80% valves fail, thats terrible, what make of cylinder is that as I'm sure we should all steer clear of them?

 

[lebesset]

for 25 years I ran on lpg so have pumped a lot of gas in my time , sometimes 60Kg/day on long trips
the tanks on lpg vehicles use 80 % valves , I had two failures on landi -hartog equipment , used as OE by volvo , the other was of italian and have forgotten the name

having been in the weighing machine business maybe you can tell me the specification of the equipment you saw so that I can judge it's accuracy, it will certainly be less than an lpg pump I can assure you

you say you think that it is a bit hit and miss to rely on people calculating how much to put in ...personally I think people can manage their 2 x table quite easily

and as calor state on their website they fill up to 87% , there must be a good margin for error , don't you think ? ; I have , as previously stated , filled a bottle with lpg as far as the pump would let me , and I didn't manage to get liquid out , no doubt calor et al have higher pressure pumps than are permitted in filling stations ; but , again as previously stated , I stick to the rated capacity as marked on the bottle , belt and braces is my motto

let me be quite clear , I don't commend to anyone that they fill their normal bottles ; what I object to is them being told it is dangerous , because it is no more dangerous than driving down the road ! less so in fact !
you might as well say that being in bed is dangerous because more people die there than anywhere else