peter palance
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Llandullas Fine's Issued
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spigot
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brotherjoe
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Finally found the councils letter rejecting my appeal which I have attached below.
brotherjoe
Guest
To clarify the councils position.
The parking ticket is correctly issued because:
Their off street parking order 1997 stipulates only cars/light vans at llanddulas beach car park.
Signage was updated after complaints of motorhomes parking over night, sometimes for long periods.
That DVLA website says all motor caravans are also known as camper vans, motorhome and recreational vehicles.
Their signage is correct. There's no requirement to display the issuing authority, only the restriction in place.
They argue the sign is within the correct height, slightly high but only after having been tampered with previously.
Therefore insufficient grounds to cancel the ticket.
The parking ticket is correctly issued because:
Their off street parking order 1997 stipulates only cars/light vans at llanddulas beach car park.
Signage was updated after complaints of motorhomes parking over night, sometimes for long periods.
That DVLA website says all motor caravans are also known as camper vans, motorhome and recreational vehicles.
Their signage is correct. There's no requirement to display the issuing authority, only the restriction in place.
They argue the sign is within the correct height, slightly high but only after having been tampered with previously.
Therefore insufficient grounds to cancel the ticket.
brotherjoe
Guest
My original appeal...
I refer to the above numbered PCN issued on 17/09/2017 at Llanddulas beach and wish to appeal as I believe it was issued unfairly and illegally.
Firstly your notice states I was parked in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle, but that wasn’t clear, or made aware to me when I arrived about 6am.
There is only a small sign, which is virtually impossible to read unless you’re right by it and placed about 8ft off the ground, the effect of which is to make it out of site of a driver’s line of site on entry to the parking area. When it is dark this is made even worse.
I believe the signage is clearly inadequate, small unlit signs with small writing, poorly placed and no further warning signs in the car park itself.
Compare that to the numerous yellow signs present that warned people to stay off the rocks, all placed about 4ft off the floor and placed about every 10 metres along the sea front. These were far more visible.
Secondly I saw no notice that showed it was a council run car park and that the council had any authority to issue PCN’s. There was no signage explaining how to park, where to park, any excluded vehicles, parking charges and any penalties if these were broken. There was no mention of byelaws, traffic orders or parking orders, all of which would have made it far clearer that there were terms and conditions for parking there.
Thirdly I would refer you to EU legislation extracted from 2007/46/EC last amended 385/2009, adopted by all states in 2012 and currently used by DVLA for Licencing MOT purposes etc .
That I do not own one of the vehicles prohibited on the tiny, poorly placed sign. That my registration document says I own a Motor Caravan and therefore the term Camper van used on your signage purely generic and not a legal one and I believe renders the PCN void.
For the reasons listed I feel the PCN was issued unfairly and ask that it be cancelled with immediate effect.
I would also like to take the opportunity to moan about your general short sightedness in attempting to discriminate against certain vehicles and classes of people.
When I did a search for Llanddulas beach car park to see if anyone had experienced a similar parking problem I was surprised to find that your rough gravel pot hole ridden waste ground ‘car park’ was front page news as a sex hot spot..
Residents say beach car park is now a popular dogging spot after police started crackdown at another site - Wales Online
So while a law abiding citizen who often goes round collecting up litter and rubbish when I stop somewhere and my teenage son visit llanddulas to try some sea fishing, then basically we are not welcome, while at the same time you’re allow all types of sexual activities to take place and making no visible effort to ban, penalise or impede any of this other anti social behaviour.
It’s nice to know the council has its priorities in the correct order!
Why not try a radical progressive solution.
Set up proper visible signage allowing vehicles to park over night for a set charge, maximum stay 1 or 2 nights which could be managed by the existing officer who visits the area.
Then the visible presence of a few law abiding elderly motor caravan users would act as a visible deterrent against boy racers, fly tippers, sexual whatever’s and other anti social behaviours occurring after dark.
This would be a win win situation for the council, local residents and the motor caravan users.
Yours sincerely
I refer to the above numbered PCN issued on 17/09/2017 at Llanddulas beach and wish to appeal as I believe it was issued unfairly and illegally.
Firstly your notice states I was parked in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle, but that wasn’t clear, or made aware to me when I arrived about 6am.
There is only a small sign, which is virtually impossible to read unless you’re right by it and placed about 8ft off the ground, the effect of which is to make it out of site of a driver’s line of site on entry to the parking area. When it is dark this is made even worse.
I believe the signage is clearly inadequate, small unlit signs with small writing, poorly placed and no further warning signs in the car park itself.
Compare that to the numerous yellow signs present that warned people to stay off the rocks, all placed about 4ft off the floor and placed about every 10 metres along the sea front. These were far more visible.
Secondly I saw no notice that showed it was a council run car park and that the council had any authority to issue PCN’s. There was no signage explaining how to park, where to park, any excluded vehicles, parking charges and any penalties if these were broken. There was no mention of byelaws, traffic orders or parking orders, all of which would have made it far clearer that there were terms and conditions for parking there.
Thirdly I would refer you to EU legislation extracted from 2007/46/EC last amended 385/2009, adopted by all states in 2012 and currently used by DVLA for Licencing MOT purposes etc .
That I do not own one of the vehicles prohibited on the tiny, poorly placed sign. That my registration document says I own a Motor Caravan and therefore the term Camper van used on your signage purely generic and not a legal one and I believe renders the PCN void.
For the reasons listed I feel the PCN was issued unfairly and ask that it be cancelled with immediate effect.
I would also like to take the opportunity to moan about your general short sightedness in attempting to discriminate against certain vehicles and classes of people.
When I did a search for Llanddulas beach car park to see if anyone had experienced a similar parking problem I was surprised to find that your rough gravel pot hole ridden waste ground ‘car park’ was front page news as a sex hot spot..
Residents say beach car park is now a popular dogging spot after police started crackdown at another site - Wales Online
So while a law abiding citizen who often goes round collecting up litter and rubbish when I stop somewhere and my teenage son visit llanddulas to try some sea fishing, then basically we are not welcome, while at the same time you’re allow all types of sexual activities to take place and making no visible effort to ban, penalise or impede any of this other anti social behaviour.
It’s nice to know the council has its priorities in the correct order!
Why not try a radical progressive solution.
Set up proper visible signage allowing vehicles to park over night for a set charge, maximum stay 1 or 2 nights which could be managed by the existing officer who visits the area.
Then the visible presence of a few law abiding elderly motor caravan users would act as a visible deterrent against boy racers, fly tippers, sexual whatever’s and other anti social behaviours occurring after dark.
This would be a win win situation for the council, local residents and the motor caravan users.
Yours sincerely
maureenandtom
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Then you now have to decide whether to take the appeal further. I like your informal appeal. It's free to keep the appeal going but you will probably lose the discount for early payment if your appeal fails. Here's a few thoughts.
There's no reason why you can't argue with them before they issue the notice to owner; they might still withdraw the PCN if they think you're determined and if they are bit unsure of their grounds. The danger is that you might lose the discount.
So, for information right now. There's a youtube video about this same car park and some of the comments under it might be useful. Llanddulas Parking Restrictions; Motorhomes Not Welcome in North Wales - YouTube
I've not been able to find the Conwy County Borough Council (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1997 but I know it exists because I can easily find some amendments to it.
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Conwy/CQ19.pdf
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Conwy/CQ23.pdf
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Conwy/CQ10.pdf
The potentially useful one is the 2008 amendment (CQ19) which seems to list all their car parks. Beach Road Car park is not listed. It may have been listed in the original order but, like I said, I can't find the original order. Maybe there is no order covering this car park. You might like to use the Freedom of Information Act to as for details of all complaints of motorhomes using the car park over, say, three years. My experience is that there have hardly ever been any complaints. No complaints - no reason for the ban and the council is a liar.
So … is it listed in the original order or is it not? It may be non-chargeable and the list in the 2008 amentment is for chargeable – could have been left off the amendment for this reason.
You'll have to check the DVLA website for proof that all motor caravans are also known as campervans, motor homes and recreational vehicles. It worked for Channa in Blackpool – look again at his appeal.
Signage. Now this is really very interesting. The council says: There is no requirement to stipulate the name of the issuing authority. Now, I've always been sceptical about this but in my experience all off-street car parks do contain the name of the issuing authority and a list of the offences and of the penalty codes and the penalty amounts. Comments on the youtube video also believe the signs are not valid without the relevant authority. So I think it is probably worth pursuing this with the traffic penalty appeals tribunal. The sign is within the correct height. I've never seen a height stipulated so the council might be right. But, it's still worth a try- your arguments are good ones - the print is small, they are high and so on.
I've taken a few car parks at random from the 2008 amendment and looked at them on street view. All the ones I've looked at you can't see the front of the signs because they're inside the car parks but all of them look to me like the conventional signs which we're familiar with. Perhaps the signs at the Beach Car Park are not enforceable after all. Why would the council put proper signs on all their other car parks but not at this one?
Some councils have proven themselves liars when it comes to signs. Here's an example.
Given councils ability to be a little less than straightforward you wonder. on reflection, that given the shortcomings of the sign, whether it is, in fact, enforceable. Or is it simply a deterrent as with some other councils?
Just a few thoughts. Best of luck whatever you decide. If I come up with more thougts, I'll let you know.
There's no reason why you can't argue with them before they issue the notice to owner; they might still withdraw the PCN if they think you're determined and if they are bit unsure of their grounds. The danger is that you might lose the discount.
So, for information right now. There's a youtube video about this same car park and some of the comments under it might be useful. Llanddulas Parking Restrictions; Motorhomes Not Welcome in North Wales - YouTube
I've not been able to find the Conwy County Borough Council (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1997 but I know it exists because I can easily find some amendments to it.
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Conwy/CQ19.pdf
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Conwy/CQ23.pdf
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Conwy/CQ10.pdf
The potentially useful one is the 2008 amendment (CQ19) which seems to list all their car parks. Beach Road Car park is not listed. It may have been listed in the original order but, like I said, I can't find the original order. Maybe there is no order covering this car park. You might like to use the Freedom of Information Act to as for details of all complaints of motorhomes using the car park over, say, three years. My experience is that there have hardly ever been any complaints. No complaints - no reason for the ban and the council is a liar.
So … is it listed in the original order or is it not? It may be non-chargeable and the list in the 2008 amentment is for chargeable – could have been left off the amendment for this reason.
You'll have to check the DVLA website for proof that all motor caravans are also known as campervans, motor homes and recreational vehicles. It worked for Channa in Blackpool – look again at his appeal.
Signage. Now this is really very interesting. The council says: There is no requirement to stipulate the name of the issuing authority. Now, I've always been sceptical about this but in my experience all off-street car parks do contain the name of the issuing authority and a list of the offences and of the penalty codes and the penalty amounts. Comments on the youtube video also believe the signs are not valid without the relevant authority. So I think it is probably worth pursuing this with the traffic penalty appeals tribunal. The sign is within the correct height. I've never seen a height stipulated so the council might be right. But, it's still worth a try- your arguments are good ones - the print is small, they are high and so on.
I've taken a few car parks at random from the 2008 amendment and looked at them on street view. All the ones I've looked at you can't see the front of the signs because they're inside the car parks but all of them look to me like the conventional signs which we're familiar with. Perhaps the signs at the Beach Car Park are not enforceable after all. Why would the council put proper signs on all their other car parks but not at this one?
Some councils have proven themselves liars when it comes to signs. Here's an example.
Given councils ability to be a little less than straightforward you wonder. on reflection, that given the shortcomings of the sign, whether it is, in fact, enforceable. Or is it simply a deterrent as with some other councils?
Just a few thoughts. Best of luck whatever you decide. If I come up with more thougts, I'll let you know.
Channa
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Tut tut for a council officer, He /She is well aware that common names a Motor Caravan may be referred to on websites etc , But the legal standpoint is only a motor caravan exists. Therefore the signage has no merit in a legal sense which they know
The EC laws I quoted earlier are adopted by DVLA
Channa
Canalsman
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A few observations.
Earlier in this thread there's a picture of what seems to be an earlier sign with similar wording. The earlier sign references a weight limit of 1.5 tonnes. This would rule out motorhomes as was pointed out in this thread.
That sign also had no issuing authority identified or reference to a TRO.
In February 2016 Conwy Council identified this car park as one of a number that were surplus to their requirements. These car parks were to be offered to local councils or sold. Apparently they offered the Beach (Road) car Park to Lllanddulas Community Council who declined, towards the end of 2016, to take it.
In whose ownership is this car park now? Has it been sold? If so when? Was Conwy Council able to issue a PCN if they didn't own the land?
Earlier in this thread there's a picture of what seems to be an earlier sign with similar wording. The earlier sign references a weight limit of 1.5 tonnes. This would rule out motorhomes as was pointed out in this thread.
That sign also had no issuing authority identified or reference to a TRO.
In February 2016 Conwy Council identified this car park as one of a number that were surplus to their requirements. These car parks were to be offered to local councils or sold. Apparently they offered the Beach (Road) car Park to Lllanddulas Community Council who declined, towards the end of 2016, to take it.
In whose ownership is this car park now? Has it been sold? If so when? Was Conwy Council able to issue a PCN if they didn't own the land?
campervanannie
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FYI
This TRO is a strange thing when I was in the south I called at Goring gap no longer on the POIs as Worthing council had a few meetings over MHs and issued a TRO on marine drive whilst down there I read all the minutes of the meeting that took place when the TRO was issued and a strange thing came up, on the Q & A a local lady asked as the TRO has only been issued to the South side of Marine drive what is to stop motorhome a parking on the Southside during the day as permitted then turning their vehicles round and parking overnight on the north side of Marine Drive the councillor replied nothing but the situation is being monitored and should it become a problem we will apply for a TRO for the north side of Marine Parade. On the north side of Marine Drive are double yellow lines barely visible and overgrown with grass from the farmers field so take from that what you will fellow campers we did overnight on the Northside but further along nearer Worthing .
This TRO is a strange thing when I was in the south I called at Goring gap no longer on the POIs as Worthing council had a few meetings over MHs and issued a TRO on marine drive whilst down there I read all the minutes of the meeting that took place when the TRO was issued and a strange thing came up, on the Q & A a local lady asked as the TRO has only been issued to the South side of Marine drive what is to stop motorhome a parking on the Southside during the day as permitted then turning their vehicles round and parking overnight on the north side of Marine Drive the councillor replied nothing but the situation is being monitored and should it become a problem we will apply for a TRO for the north side of Marine Parade. On the north side of Marine Drive are double yellow lines barely visible and overgrown with grass from the farmers field so take from that what you will fellow campers we did overnight on the Northside but further along nearer Worthing .
wildebus
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"That DVLA website says all motor caravans are also known as camper vans, motorhome and recreational vehicles."
The appeal rejection letter did not actually say "That DVLA website says all motor caravans are also known as camper vans, motorhome and recreational vehicles". There was a superfluous comma in the sentence within the letter which allows ambiguity in how to read the sentence, but it is not correct to say the council made that statement.
Maybe councils end up not being able to fill in potholes and provide improved services as so much staff time is wasting on dealing with spurious appeals by people who know full well that while their vehicle may be technically be classed as a "Motor Caravan", 99% of the public - and I am sure the large majority of owners - refer to them as Motorhomes or Campervans.
If the sign stated "Motor Caravans" not permitted, then I bet most people with a Motor Caravan would think it would NOT apply to them as they are not towing a Caravan. (Ignorance there? Yes. But Reality? Also yes)
How about a radical approach and actually base your actions on the spirit of a law or rule?
Loads of posts on this forum about how this or that could done if only the councils, police, government, etc, would be less up their own arse with regulations (a fair point) but at the same time those same people are picking out the minutiae of a parking sign where the intended restrictions are in truth clearly understood. Those who had chosen to either ignore them or where the sign not seen (As it was a wee bit higher than the norm to avoid vandalism, as I surmised in a previous post) OR LOOKED FOR have to deal with the consequences.
The appeal rejection letter did not actually say "That DVLA website says all motor caravans are also known as camper vans, motorhome and recreational vehicles". There was a superfluous comma in the sentence within the letter which allows ambiguity in how to read the sentence, but it is not correct to say the council made that statement.
Maybe councils end up not being able to fill in potholes and provide improved services as so much staff time is wasting on dealing with spurious appeals by people who know full well that while their vehicle may be technically be classed as a "Motor Caravan", 99% of the public - and I am sure the large majority of owners - refer to them as Motorhomes or Campervans.
If the sign stated "Motor Caravans" not permitted, then I bet most people with a Motor Caravan would think it would NOT apply to them as they are not towing a Caravan. (Ignorance there? Yes. But Reality? Also yes)
How about a radical approach and actually base your actions on the spirit of a law or rule?
Loads of posts on this forum about how this or that could done if only the councils, police, government, etc, would be less up their own arse with regulations (a fair point) but at the same time those same people are picking out the minutiae of a parking sign where the intended restrictions are in truth clearly understood. Those who had chosen to either ignore them or where the sign not seen (As it was a wee bit higher than the norm to avoid vandalism, as I surmised in a previous post) OR LOOKED FOR have to deal with the consequences.
maureenandtom
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No need for a TRO and all that consultation nonsense. The council has issued a Public Spaces Protection Order https://www.adur-worthing.gov.uk/media/media,141630,en.pdf covering at least part of Marine Drive - maybe your part. All it had to do was, maybe, ask a question of residents "Do you approve of camping on Marine Drive" - nobody will - and there you are; crime created, which a TRO could not do.
Channa
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Would that be the same time wasted, In York over the Lendal Bridge Fiasco, or the Scottish Highlands erecting non legally enforceable signage ? Would that be the same time invested on signage claiming "No liability whatsoever for damage caused etc" Equally non enforceable ,you cannot absolve youself of negligence in law , most A level student knows that much
Where are local authorities actions based upon the spirit of the law or their own rules ?They set the rules and have a duty of diligence to make sure they are proposed correctly ,,,they erect non enforceable signage (no tro etc )and we are supposed to believe they are acting with in the spirit. Are you suggesting we accept their ineptness because of "spirit" We obviously live in a different world.
Channa
brotherjoe
Guest
If the council tell me they have a problem with motorhomes parking on that car park why don't they put in a 6ft 6" overhead bar to stop them entering?
Why do they display 2 small signs, away from any drivers line of sight, with small writing, placed over 8ft in the air and with no other mentions of No Parking anywhere else in the car park?
Why are there about a dozen signs warning you not to climb on the rocks but no mention of prohibited vehicles?
They strike me as a deliberate attempt on the part of the council to hide that they have prohibited certain vehicles so as to make the car park more profitable by issueing fines.
(reading through the Llanddulas local council meeting minutes they discussed being offered the car park by Conwy Council who were looking to off load any car park not earning them at least £7,000 per year.
They gave an estimation to Llanddulas that it might earn about £6,000 per year and was thereford unviable for them. Previously it earned them nothing until they prohibited certain vehicles last year. At £35 per vehicle (reduced rate) they only need 200 tickets a year, or 4 a week. At the full £70 fine thats only 2 a week and they will cover their £7,000 target)
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brotherjoe
Guest
Bit the bullet and decided to send a further appeal letter. See how it goes.
I thank you for your letter dated 27/09/2017 and note the contents therein.
I appreciate you may have a 1997 order restricting certain vehicles from the Llanddulas beach car park, but you then acknowledge that signage was only amended to reflect this in 2016 and having experienced it first hand, I do not feel you have made sufficient efforts to display this information to anyone entering the car park area.
If you have had problems with a few inconsiderate users in the past then I have no problem you restricting access, but not if it’s done in such a way as to entrap people and I feel that is what your lack of signage in this car park does.
You acknowledge the sign is ‘slightly’ higher than normal. I disagree, the sign is so high as to stop anyone tampering with it, which is what you suggest has happened before.
The result of placing the sign so high is to make it virtually invisible to the very people who you wish to deter (my vehicle, like many others I imagine, has a cab that extends above the drivers head which restricts the view of signs placed in such a high position)
On entering the car parks there are also rocks placed dividing the two parking areas. Every driver’s eyes will be focused on avoiding those rocks, not looking for a sign hidden 10ft in the air and 15ft to the side.
On parking in the car park there is extensive signage telling visitors not to climb on the rocks. I counted at least 12 signs warning of the dangers. However there was not one further sign to warn newly prohibited vehicles that they shouldn’t park there.
This was my first trip to llanddulas in over 5 years and neither your parking officer nor anyone else will have noted my vehicle there, either before or after this new signage was introduced so I feel it grossly unfair to be penalized in such an underhand way. I always obey signage (where it’s visible) and have no wish to park places I’m not welcome or am likely to incur fines or penalties.
Considering the above, if you are unable to cancel the charge then I feel I have no choice but to pursue the matter further and make formal representations if need be.
Yours sincerely,
I thank you for your letter dated 27/09/2017 and note the contents therein.
I appreciate you may have a 1997 order restricting certain vehicles from the Llanddulas beach car park, but you then acknowledge that signage was only amended to reflect this in 2016 and having experienced it first hand, I do not feel you have made sufficient efforts to display this information to anyone entering the car park area.
If you have had problems with a few inconsiderate users in the past then I have no problem you restricting access, but not if it’s done in such a way as to entrap people and I feel that is what your lack of signage in this car park does.
You acknowledge the sign is ‘slightly’ higher than normal. I disagree, the sign is so high as to stop anyone tampering with it, which is what you suggest has happened before.
The result of placing the sign so high is to make it virtually invisible to the very people who you wish to deter (my vehicle, like many others I imagine, has a cab that extends above the drivers head which restricts the view of signs placed in such a high position)
On entering the car parks there are also rocks placed dividing the two parking areas. Every driver’s eyes will be focused on avoiding those rocks, not looking for a sign hidden 10ft in the air and 15ft to the side.
On parking in the car park there is extensive signage telling visitors not to climb on the rocks. I counted at least 12 signs warning of the dangers. However there was not one further sign to warn newly prohibited vehicles that they shouldn’t park there.
This was my first trip to llanddulas in over 5 years and neither your parking officer nor anyone else will have noted my vehicle there, either before or after this new signage was introduced so I feel it grossly unfair to be penalized in such an underhand way. I always obey signage (where it’s visible) and have no wish to park places I’m not welcome or am likely to incur fines or penalties.
Considering the above, if you are unable to cancel the charge then I feel I have no choice but to pursue the matter further and make formal representations if need be.
Yours sincerely,
brotherjoe
Guest
Received a further reply from the council basically referring me back to their previous letter, reminding me I can make formal representation at Notice to Owner stage and then further extending the discounted payment period by another 14 days.
Clearly they have no interest in changing their mind.
Clearly they have no interest in changing their mind.
Channa
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I still stand by my earlier comments, the fact that the dvla apparently class a motor caravan s as campers motorhomes etc is of no relevance ...Motor caravan is the correct legal term, even on the DVLA site they state there interpretation is not a legal description that can only be decided by the courts and the legal definition is motor caravan to claim other terms is not legal and that is what matters legal definition not colloquialisms. Inadvertently they have admitted that Their original reply states their interpretation not the laws and use dvla info to bamboozle yet the dvla state it is their interpretation
Secondly you entered signage at unreasonable height , dusk it was not legible no illumination therefore you entered a contract it with limited information, and on that basis alone the case should be dismissed
Motor caravans are the same as cars same classification exactly as a car you were using the vehicle as a passenger carrying vehicle body type is of no relevance...had the sign disclosed a weight limit namely 1500 kgs that is the popular one you would have difficulty but it doesn't ..
I beat Blackpool council with this tact. ( spirit has nothing to do with it) in the end they relented.
There is another route you could go too, You chose to park illegally therefore no contract was entered into so their terms and conditions become redundant ...they can only apply to remove you for trespass but you have moved on so no chance of that .....they could sue for loss but in a free car park what is that loss...( I think you are too late for that dialogu already is questioning contractual terms)
I perhaps sound militant and pedantic, not at all , If councils want to restrict parking etc it should be done correctly if they cant be arsed to do that which is common throughout the land you have every right to challenge their ineptness
good luck
At this stage you could if yo lose get the full wallop, I still think you have a case. Remember they will play bluff and bluster ...
Channa
Secondly you entered signage at unreasonable height , dusk it was not legible no illumination therefore you entered a contract it with limited information, and on that basis alone the case should be dismissed
Motor caravans are the same as cars same classification exactly as a car you were using the vehicle as a passenger carrying vehicle body type is of no relevance...had the sign disclosed a weight limit namely 1500 kgs that is the popular one you would have difficulty but it doesn't ..
I beat Blackpool council with this tact. ( spirit has nothing to do with it) in the end they relented.
There is another route you could go too, You chose to park illegally therefore no contract was entered into so their terms and conditions become redundant ...they can only apply to remove you for trespass but you have moved on so no chance of that .....they could sue for loss but in a free car park what is that loss...( I think you are too late for that dialogu already is questioning contractual terms)
I perhaps sound militant and pedantic, not at all , If councils want to restrict parking etc it should be done correctly if they cant be arsed to do that which is common throughout the land you have every right to challenge their ineptness
good luck
At this stage you could if yo lose get the full wallop, I still think you have a case. Remember they will play bluff and bluster ...
Channa
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alcam
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Perhaps but worth your while taking next step . In my experience they often get fed up before you ; 'whilst you were parked illegally in this instance we will not pursue ......'
I would personally keep going even after the discount on the fine has expired . Understandable if you don't want to go that far
brotherjoe
Guest
I may have found the original 1997 order but I haven't found anything in it that helps me so far.
The files to large to upload so I've put the link below, I believe its code CQ18
Traffic Regulation Orders | Traffic Penalty Tribunal
There are also long lists of other local authority TRO's so it might be a useful resource for others in the future.
Chris356
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Only just read this post and we have been to llanddulas today but we parked at the beach caravan park we had a walk towards colwyn and must have got to the mentioned car park it was partitioned by rocks I too would have parked there didn't notice any signs there was a yellow long wheel base transit campervan there bet they too didn't know
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Geraldine
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The TRO is in place for the hours of 9pm to 8am. Therefore just head in land if you need to sleep, then return in the morning.Beautiful spot by the sea, enjoy.
David