Tyres

[merl]

I can't disagree with what you say there Merl

You know Rob, when I posted the last bit about being a twat I thought someone would be along real quick saying I was dead right.

 

[mark61]

You know Rob, when I posted the last bit about being a twat I thought someone would be along real quick saying I was dead right.

Well, I was tempted to suggest, at least they have the "applicable data", but I decided against it.

 

[colinm]

I should also note that as I posted earlier, I found very little difference in grip from crossclimates and summer tyres, but in snow there is a huge difference, and for those who think 'well I don't use the van in the middle of winter' we have driven back along A30 at Easter in the snow.

Posted that from my phone and missed a bit, I'll clarify.
On tarmac in warm conditions, whether dry or wet I didn't notice much differance in grip, as it got colder the crossclimates had noticeably more grip, much of this I put down to the poor cold weather performance of the summer tyres the car came with. In snow there was a vast difference.
Whilst the crossclimates are not designed as an offroad tyre they gave much better grip in mud, I was looking at a van shod with Michelin Crossclimates a few weeks ago, and they looked much more 'agressive' than the tyres on my Suzi, I would guess they give a lot better grip in mud than standard summer tyres.

 

[merl]

I decided against it.

Glad you did mate otherwise I'd have been offended

 

[wildebus]

Posted that from my phone and missed a bit, I'll clarify.
On tarmac in warm conditions, whether dry or wet I didn't notice much differance in grip, as it got colder the crossclimates had noticeably more grip, much of this I put down to the poor cold weather performance of the summer tyres the car came with. In snow there was a vast difference.
Whilst the crossclimates are not designed as an offroad tyre they gave much better grip in mud, I was looking at a van shod with Michelin Crossclimates a few weeks ago, and they looked much more 'agressive' than the tyres on my Suzi, I would guess they give a lot better grip in mud than standard summer tyres.

My first experience of Cross-Climates was a few years ago on my DS5 Car.
I found in the Summer, they were better than the standard tyres the car came with. And in Winter, they were better than the dedicated Winter tyres I bought. I am convinced from my experience that they are worth the slight extra over other premium brands and are my 'go to' tyre over all others now.

If people run two sets of tyres - one for Summer, one for Winter - it is tricky to know the best time to switch between them in both the spring AND autumn, as for a period, the optimum tyre will be different from day to day as the temps vary. The Cross-Climates get round that problem very well, plus avoids the need and expense to keep two sets of wheels and tyres (and it is definately an extra expense for people who do low miles as the tyres will expire through age long before mileage).

@merl, I am not sure what you read in my post to make the reply you did when quoting my post? I just said what I do and why. Not telling anyone else what they should do at all, except maybe saying penny-pinching on the main product that keeps you out the ditches is not always a good move.

I will eventually be getting Cross-Climates on my current car, but while the current tyres (original tyres and a premium brand) still have decent tread on them, I won't be swapping them out (and they show no sign of ever wearing out!). But when the first pair hit that replacement tread level point, rest assured I will be changing all 4 and certainly not just the two. But that is MY modus operandi. Others can do what they see fit.

 

[merl]

I am not sure what you read in my post to make the reply you did when quoting my post? I just said what I do and why. Not telling anyone else what they should do at all, except maybe saying penny-pinching on the main product that keeps you out the ditches is not always a good move.

I know you weren't 'telling' David, and I'm sorry, you simply misunderstood what I was getting at. As I said in the post I know you simply suggested and passed on experience and asked questions, all fine and certainly wasn't taking a pop at you.

 

[merl]

when the first pair hit that replacement tread level point, rest assured I will be changing all 4 and certainly not just the two. But that is MY modus operandi. Others can do what they see fit.

I'd do the same on the car TBH, the missus drives it mostly and if she puts it in a ditch I'll have no one to cook me dinner.

 

[GMJ]

Not that I can tell.

as a matter of interest when they were fitted they had 9mm tread depth, rather than the 10mm the old camper tyres did. I’ve checked them now after 9000 miles and they’re down to 5mm. That suggests perhaps another 6/7000 miles and they’ll need changing.

That mileage seems awfully low to me for a set of front tyres. On that bases I'd have to be getting a new set of front every 18 months with the mileage we do.

Are cross climate tyres know to wear more than 'normal' or CP tyres?

 

[SimonM]

That mileage seems awfully low to me for a set of front tyres. On that bases I'd have to be getting a new set of front every 18 months with the mileage we do.

Are cross climate tyres know to wear more than 'normal' or CP tyres?

Is yours FWD or RWD? My Burstner is Fiat FWD and weighs around 3850kg loaded. From my previous useage I think I’m getting the usual use out of the tyres.

 

[colinm]

From my previous useage I think I’m getting the usual use out of the tyres.

That would be the relevant figure, we all have different size vans, and different driving styles, I still recall Don Madge having a very similar van to mine of the time, and him getting considerably better MPG and tyre life.

 

[Nabsim]

When I had Saabs I found Michelin tyres gave very poor road holding, they tramlines going on white lines and I thought they were just too hard a compound. On those cars I found Firestone far superior. I never used to fit different tyres winter or summer with the exception of running some studded tyres briefly one year. This was all in the Peak District back in the days we used to get snow. I notice no comments have been made about different makes of tyre so far on this thread. Is this because most people automatically go with big brands.,

With my van I don’t know if I was lucky or unlucky in that only Continental made a tyre in the right size that would meet rear axle load rating. I have had a choice of two or three flavours of Conti and that’s it. When I needed tyres 3 of the four were getting near to their limit and the 4th was 12 years old so I decided to get 4. As I use the van all year round and only in the U.K. I went for a set of Four Seasons. They have been excellent for grip, road holding and wear.

After reading all the posts I thought I would have a look at what Conti say, I will add the link as there are a couple other pages about mixing summer/winter tyres etc that may be of interest.

The following is taken from Continental Tyre Info
“First and foremost, our guidance is to fit the same tires on all wheel positions of your vehicle.

However, if mixing becomes unavoidable due to a lack of availability or budget constraints, then it’s possible to mix tire brands and tread patterns – but only so long as drivers fit a pair of tires with the same tread patterns and brands across the same axle. That means installing a pair of identical tires on the rear axle, or a pair of identical tires to the front.

It may also be possible to mix tires with different load indexes and speed ratings if the load index and speed symbols are higher than the minimum threshold recommended by the vehicle manufacturer (extra load vs. standard load). In these instances, fit the higher-rated tires to the rear axle.”

 

[colinm]

When I had Saabs I found Michelin tyres gave very poor road holding, they tramlines going on white lines and I thought they were just too hard a compound. On those cars I found Firestone far superior. I never used to fit different tyres winter or summer with the exception of running some studded tyres briefly one year. This was all in the Peak District back in the days we used to get snow. I notice no comments have been made about different makes of tyre so far on this thread. Is this because most people automatically go with big brands.,

With my van I don’t know if I was lucky or unlucky in that only Continental made a tyre in the right size that would meet rear axle load rating. I have had a choice of two or three flavours of Conti and that’s it. When I needed tyres 3 of the four were getting near to their limit and the 4th was 12 years old so I decided to get 4. As I use the van all year round and only in the U.K. I went for a set of Four Seasons. They have been excellent for grip, road holding and wear.

After reading all the posts I thought I would have a look at what Conti say, I will add the link as there are a couple other pages about mixing summer/winter tyres etc that may be of interest.

The following is taken from Continental Tyre Info
“First and foremost, our guidance is to fit the same tires on all wheel positions of your vehicle.

However, if mixing becomes unavoidable due to a lack of availability or budget constraints, then it’s possible to mix tire brands and tread patterns – but only so long as drivers fit a pair of tires with the same tread patterns and brands across the same axle. That means installing a pair of identical tires on the rear axle, or a pair of identical tires to the front.

It may also be possible to mix tires with different load indexes and speed ratings if the load index and speed symbols are higher than the minimum threshold recommended by the vehicle manufacturer (extra load vs. standard load). In these instances, fit the higher-rated tires to the rear axle.”

As you have posted Conti are quite open to people using different tyres on different axles, the bit from Conti you have missed from your post is this.

When investing in a set of winter tyres, for example, you must put them on all four wheel positions of your car. It will maximise handling of the vehicle and mitigate the risk of losing traction on either the rear or front axle when driving on slippery roads.

 

[Blind-dog]

Just throwing it out there...what would the insurance implications be if something were to go wrong and you had mix of winter/all season tyres on one axle and standard on the other - knowing the battle we've had getting insurance to pay out in the past would they see this a good reason to nullify any claim where loss of control / grip might be a cause?

 

[colinm]

Just throwing it out there...what would the insurance implications be if something were to go wrong and you had mix of winter/all season tyres on one axle and standard on the other - knowing the battle we've had getting insurance to pay out in the past would they see this a good reason to nullify any claim where loss of control / grip might be a cause?

I would hazard a guess that as the tyres are being used the against recommendation of manufacturers, then you would need to argue that it was safe to do so, a very hard argument to make unless you can find a expert witness to back you up.

 

[Nabsim]

As you have posted Conti are quite open to people using different tyres on different axles, the bit from Conti you have missed from your post is this.

I wasn’t intending my post to suggest it was okay to mix summer and winter tyres. The bit I copied was only for fitting pairs if needed rather than a full set. It is for the same type of tyre.

That’s why I included the link as there were pages for summer and winter tyres and they state they shouldn’t be mixed.

I was just trying to point out Conti are okay with fitting pairs although what copied does say they recommend full sets in the first sentence of what I pasted.

 

[GMJ]

Is yours FWD or RWD? My Burstner is Fiat FWD and weighs around 3850kg loaded. From my previous useage I think I’m getting the usual use out of the tyres.

FWD and 5000kg fully loaded (A-T Comanche). My fronts have been on there for at least 3 years now and with well over 20,000 miles on them, still have at least half their tread left.

 

[Deneb]

I mean let's take the lady who crashed in the previous story because she put the grippy tyres on the front rather than the rear. If she'd have been travelling through a village at say 25 in the wet and a child stepped out in front of her then doubtless she'd stop quicker with the tyres apparently incorrectly fitted.

No, it's more than likely that in an emergency stop scenario, the rear end would have attempted to overtake the front, as indeed it did in the circumstances I described, largely because she had to make a sudden braking input. The likelihood would increase greatly in certain weather or road conditions. Whilst rear tyres and brakes do not contribute greatly to the overall stopping ability of a vehicle, they provide very necessary stability, which does contributes greatly to its ability to stop in a straight line. If the deceleration of the vehicle owing to the "grip" of the front tyres exceeds the ability of the rear tyres to maintain good contact with the surface that the vehicle is being driven on, that stability is largely lost. Fitting the tyres with the best grip to the rear may increase the overall stopping distance slightly, but it does at least largely ensure that the vehicle will remain stable and under control throughout the manoeuvre.

I don't have a vested interest other than safety, and whilst there is no law that explicitly states that winter tyres must not be mixed with summer tyres, or ditto all season tyres, the catch all offence of using a motor vehicle fitted with a tyre or tyres that are unsuitable due to the use to which the vehicle is being put, or to the types of tyres fitted to its other wheels could well be considered depending on the circumstances and appropriate independent expert evidence.

 

[Technispark]

Why not ?

I put them on the front of my work van and not had any issues
And have them all round on the motorhome.

It’s normal practice up here in the highlands for tyre fitters to put winter tyres on the front if the car is front wheel drive or the rear if rear wheel drive . I can see that 4 wheel drive would benefit from winter tyres all round

 

[merl]

No, it's more than likely that in an emergency stop scenario, the rear end would have attempted to overtake the front.

Don't think so at 25 in the wet going straight. I reckon even a semi incompetent could stop in a straight line with all weather tyres on the front no matter what's on the rear.
I reckon you'd have to make a deliberate effort and try really hard to step the back out at 25 in the wet.
Inexperienced driver with crap tyres on the front in an emergency stop will keep the fronts locked and slide into the child.

Fitting the tyres with the best grip to the rear may increase the overall stopping distance

Sorry but I think you just contradicted your first remark.

I don't have a vested interest

I never said YOU did. As I've already explained to Colin the manufacturers and suppliers (whom you quoted as backup to your argument) will. It's going to be in there interest to sell you as many tyres as possible.
If you genuinely don't think that manufacturers and sellers don't over-egg that particular pudding then I think we're done here Deneb.

 

[colinm]

As I've posted several times on this thread, tyre companies are happy to advise that people can fit different summer tyres with different tread wear on vehicles, or different winter tyres with different tread wear, so they are not out to sell people 4 tyres at a go. They do however advise against fitting summer tyres on one axle, and winter tyres on the other axle, there are very good reasons for this as the tyres react very differently in different weather conditions, after all if they didn't why would you bother with different tyres.
Now I didn't want to bring up the issue of insurance, but another member did, and as I pointed out, if investigated in a insurance claim and it was thought the tyres where a contributary factor you will need to find a 'expert witness' to counter this, well good luck with that, as I can find no advise online form tyre manufacturers or fitters that it is fine.
I took the risk and learnt the hard way just how much differance in grip there is in snow, a mistake I will not be making again.