Wild camping in your own fields?

in june of this year i will have had static caravan in my orchard for 4yrs that my grandson lives in and pays seperate council tax for,it is fully plumbed in drains,water and electric will this come under the 4 or 10 plan??

Ah, the easy ones first eh???? :)

It seems to me that if it is plumbed in then you could argue that it is a "building" for purposes of the law (and the limit would be 4 years). It also seems to me that if he pays council tax on the "structure" then the authorities already know about it! Personally, I'd let sleeping dogs lie because you might find that the courts decide it is the ten year rule that applies after all - but testing vagueries like this helped to earn a living for my family for several decades!
 
we put it on in the june 08 then the following april 09 out of the blue we got a council tax bill for 09/10 a week later we got a demand for the june 08 / april 09 bill they had back dated it to the very month it was first sited :confused: and no one from the council has ever spoken to us about it, our plan is to eventually change it for a chalet for us and rent the bungalow out.
 
Good luck with that! :)

We have to remember that "they" can change the law at any time they like. Some things were done for twenty years and councils played ball.
Then, on orders from on high, the law was changed and folk faced eviction and various charges.

Rules apply until they don't.
It's a bit like the old farmer whose family went down from the hill to the pub for centuries. When he pointed this out, he still had to blow in the bag, and nobody sided with him.

Out of sight, out of mind is another one, but let's remember that even underground homes have been demolished by order of the council.
Nearest neighbours miles away and nothing visible. The council wallah must have had eyes like a ****house rat to find the place.:)
You can fight the Law, but they always win in the end, imo.

Like Al Capone, they'll always catch you on some technicality - usually something related to tax and its non-payment. Let's face it, money talks. There's always something you should have done, and "rectification to become compliant" costs.

sean rua.
 
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Thanks for your help everyone.
Lots of things to consider that we hadn’t thought about !
Not good news about horses probably the only animal I’m scared of, but if I don’t have to deal with them I could try.
So next question. Where is the best place to go ? Would like to be reasonably close to coast, With nice clean water, eastern side of England always looks muddy we have a boat & like to dive – I think we would be good neighbours for anyone, no bad habits and usually get invites to parties, so must smell ok :)
carole & andy
 
i think its the mobile homes act that says you can site a mobile home within the curtilage of your property for a relation to live in without needing planning permission, as far as i can remenber theres a size limit and it has to be movable in a max of two pieces. so you can stick yer great aunt or nephew in the bottom of yer garden without asking anyones permission.
theres also something that allows a mobile home to house workers on a building site, if you occupy something like 20 acres of agricultural land you can apply for planning permission to erect a barn.... they cant refuse if it meets size and design criteria, then you are allowed a mobile home on site whilst its built...the legistlation allows you 5 years before planners can get sniffy.

use google to verify the details... if you read the actual legislation youll know when council is telling porkies.... incidentally its an offence for a council bod to missrepresent the law..but i aint found out how to get one prosecuted, even when youve got the official letter with the lies in it,

if you only want to camp occasionally in a motor home several small fields registered seperatly will keep officialdom running in circles, especially if they are in different names. if any busybody starts listing dates just deny you were there at the stated times... unless a council employee has actually been out there is no proof you were there.... dates on cameras can be changed, a newspaper in a picture doesnt have to be that days.. etc. dont admit what they cant prove


ive got nearly 9 acres in central somerset thats open to silly offers
 
wales,i have a sneaky suspicion you won't be alone in living quietly below the radar look you
 
I looked at this with a view to buying a house with a fair bit of land, renting it out and setting aside a corner of the garden to park my van when I wanted with drainage, water and leccy laid on. Living in the van legally as part of the household is a strict no no. You can sleep in it but not cook or wash inside. I can't remember where I read this but I'm sure it's right.
The best way is to register the land as a CL site with one of the clubs or forums that offer the service. No need for planning permission and, if you don't want to aggravate the neighbours, don't let anyone else stay there: although there is the chance to make some £, nasties like business rates and HMRC start creeping in.
 
laws in scotland are different - I have a static caravan which was once used to house people who rebuilt our house and now I rent out in the summer to tourists - (has all plumbing and electric etc) but it comes under small business rebates so I get a council tax bill each year of £0.00

and personally if I felt like living/camping in my campervan or in a tent on my own land or if I felt like allowing my family to do so (among any of the almost 20 acres of it) I'd be very peeved if anyone put in an objection
 
This thread is developing into some fascinatingly grey areas - which leads me to repeat that the best advice is to keep your head down and not annoy anybody!

ricc - I don't think the curtilage argument works here for two reasons - Old Arthur originally stated that the land is an orchard, not the garden of a house; and the local authority have accepted it as a seperate dwelling because they charge council tax on it (although it is a mystery to me on the currently available facts because presumably they never gave permission for it to be erected as such!).

sean rua - yes, laws can be (and are) changed all the time, but rarely in retrospect. I'm not sure what your point is concerning the farmer and the pub but it has been stated on another thread that you are not safe from the drink/drive laws even on private land.

Airecraft - you are right in that legally you can sleep in the van within the curtilage of a dwelling but not live full-time in it. The law regards it as a temporary additional bedroom. The occupants must, for other purposes, be part of the household.

Anybody got any views on what would happen if the land was divided up into parcels, each owned by a different person? I'd love to see that tested in court! :D
 
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hi john .that as been done .i dont know of it going to court . but i do know of it being orgamised . i,m sure most councils realise that there is a possibilty of losing so dont push these places.
having been in a few planning rows i now realise that they threaten to do things ,but very often know that you will apeal before they actually do anything so you set the dates of your own end . if you wait the councils might threaten again and again ,but not actually do anything . head down dont answer any letters and let them do it. then apeal. mind they do charge rates even if you are illegal, if they can get away with it.
 
Selling parcels of land?? Wasn't there a big scam about that over the past few years!!!!!

I know that this isn't the case, but theoretically if you split it up between members of one family, then if there were 12 members a motorhome/caravan could under the 28 day rule stay all year, just moving plot every couple of days. Hmmmm.

But I think the best rule is keep your head down, don't be conspicuous and make friends with the neighbours, maybe mates rates for horse grazing etc.
 
PS Just noticed on Google Earth that there's now a timeline so you can see the different images they've used since they went live, now that's scary!!
 
Hi JohnH,

The point about the farmer was supposed to show how having a long and legal tradition can be no guarantee to future tolerance from the rulers.
This is the case with our lot who did what we do for centuries, but now find it increasingly difficult to comply with "the Law".
Hundreds of stopping places have been commandeered, taken over; had their use changed; been built upon; been turned into various sorts of park; had signs erected; grass mown by councils at taxpayers' expense,
all
in the name of someone ( who presumably does alright by the change) but at the detriment of folk who find
they can no longer go about their business as before.

To others:

The curtilage idea can be overcome by the Law, IF they so wish. They pick and choose. Rich, established landowners are rarely challenged. Others may not be so fortunate. The "funny handshake" works wonders here. Either you're in or you're out.

The small parcels idea can be a legal nightmare - even from your point of view. The legal profession ( as heinous as their close cousins the politicians and bankers) don't come cheap. They are as slow as fk to do anything constructive.
In the meantime the Law can bring in any amount of prohibitive injunctions etc, that are said ( by them) to be binding within weeks.
All that conveyancing and land tax stuff kicks in eventually, and, to cover years of costly bureaucratic waste and inaction, you can bet your bottom dollar that They'll come up with some retrospective money-grabbing scheme. In their view, money should only roll one way, ie into their coffers.
Let us not forget that these lads, who often joined the council with the hope of getting a cushy number with a fat pension after a relatively short period of chair-polishing, are now facing a huge black hole in their accounts.
The Recession and bad investment in the Iceland Banks have left them in a dire predicament: they have, somehow, to fund all these pensions.
As Mr Micawber knew, when the balance sheet doesn't balance, the result is debt. Hence, they scrabble around for new sources of income.
The British people - a significant proportion of them - showed M. Thatcher that they were not going to pay a Poll Tax, even though this, in theory, may well have been the "fairest" way of gathering tax.
Thus, the authorities, who have already pushed councuil tax rates to the bearable limit, are caught btween a rock and a hard place.

In desperation they turn to "Planning" and "the Environment" ( great buzzword for the young and naive with their ten "O" levels and no experience). These will be milked for all they're worth. Law after law after law.
Tax after tax after tax.

Personally, I believe their plans are unsustainable. At the end of the day, those who can hold onto land by force will be the ultimate winners. Bits of paper won't come into it in the final analysis.

If i were the opening poster, I would most surely go ahead with purchase ( prices are still too high, but will undoubtedly start to creep upwards shortly). Get the ownership first, then battle away afterwards.

'Tis no good expecting neighbours/authorities not to notice just bc you keep your head down. There are hundreds of folk flat out on "desk studies", googling maps and poring over aerial photographs, doing nothing but searching for signs and loopholes. Their sole purpose is to capitalise on anything they spot that looks potentially lucrative to THEM.
Also, rural folk ain't mugs, just bc they talk funny. They know what's going on five miles away, even if you can't spot them, they have you covered. At ten miles, the dogs start barking! ;)

All the very best!

sean rua.
 
Hi JohnH,

1. The point about the farmer was supposed to show how having a long and legal tradition can be no guarantee to future tolerance from the rulers.

2. The curtilage idea can be overcome by the Law, IF they so wish.

3. The small parcels idea can be a legal nightmare - even from your point of view. The legal profession ( as heinous as their close cousins the politicians and bankers) don't come cheap. They are as slow as fk to do anything constructive.

4. At the end of the day, those who can hold onto land by force will be the ultimate winners. Bits of paper won't come into it in the final analysis.

5. 'Tis no good expecting neighbours/authorities not to notice just bc you keep your head down. There are hundreds of folk flat out on "desk studies", googling maps and poring over aerial photographs, doing nothing but searching for signs and loopholes. Their sole purpose is to capitalise on anything they spot that looks potentially lucrative to THEM.

6. Also, rural folk ain't mugs, just bc they talk funny. They know what's going on five miles away, even if you can't spot them, they have you covered. At ten miles, the dogs start barking! ;)

Hi sean

Lots to go on there but I have itemised a few points for discussion

1. I agree - laws change. Otherwise, bear-baiting would still be legal. Just because something is "traditional" doesn't make it acceptable for all time.

2. "THEY" are ultimately "US". If you want a law changed and you can persuade the majority to agree with you you can get elected and change it. If the majority disagree with you then you will not achieve change. That's democracy.

3. I apologise for coming from a family of lawyers and councillors - but at least none of us are bankers! :D

4. A piece of music you will probably appreciate - The World Turned Upside Down by Leon Rosselson. Enjoy!

5. Difficult to see how objecting to someone parking on their own land can be lucrative for anybody who complains.

6. Not sure of the point here - did anyone criticise the way others speak? I do, however, agree that in the countryside it doesn't take long for everybody to know who you are and what you're up to - which seems to me to be another reason to keep on their good side!

Happy travels
 
from a slightly different perspective.
you own a field.... half a dozen "travelers" turn up in transits and caravans..... plod and council dont want to know yer on yer own as the landowner to go to court to get a bit of paper to enable you to employ somebody to tell them to go.... by the time theyve pleaded human rights and appealed to the european court it can take years..
once theyve gone and returned the next day ,or just moved a few yards it all starts again.


sometimes laws and rules seem to only apply to those who are minded to obey them....
 
Strictly only 28 days per year in one location, but if your land is as big as that, you could probably move it elsewhere on the land, and not attract too much attention.

One way to 'extend' the use is to fence off certain areas and only use one at a time for 28 days....if you fenced off 12 areas you could use a strip each month....this is how several small home airfields operate without planning permission...just using a different bit of a large flat field for the runway after 28 days.
 
Trouble is, Victor, all this fencing
would be contrary to the true spirit of "wildcamping", wouldn't it? :sad::D

--

JohnH -
now we know why you enjoyed a ding-dong with Northener et al! He's probably a legal boffin too. :D

Anyway, back to business:

Point 5 ( re the guys scouring the maps and photos).
These fellas keep an eye out for any sign of activity. They want a slice of the action. If they spot something, they'll run straight to the authorities with a) a complaint, b) a deal to cut said authority in for a "consideration".
Result: the innocent person, who probably just wanted out of the ratrace, gets turfed out on any old pretext that can stick, and, the "squeaky-clean developer" pulls in and everybody applauds and says how wonderful it is that he's helping the area, the community, etc etc.
A bit like Tesco really, who, you may remember, had no prob with their huge development near so-called "greenbelt" in Basildon and in numerous other locations.

The other point about the rural folk was to show that when it comes to fields out in the sticks, it is the city-slicker who isn't as smart as the locals or yokels, in many, many, cases.
It is an error to under-estimate these old bumpkins, imo. I've seen them get the better of many a slick whizz-kid who thinks he'll muscle in and squeeze them out. That's what the chat about judging them by the way they talk was all about.
I've always said that if a Martian were to land on earth, he'd be less noticed if he did it in the middle of London or New York than if he were to pop up in some lonely old field out in the sticks.:D

--
@ Ricc,

"
sometimes laws and rules seem to only apply to those who are minded to obey them": ricc

I'd say it's more than sometimes, ricc. It's most times, imo.
Laws only work if folk obey them.


sean rua.
 
1. Point 5 ( re the guys scouring the maps and photos).
These fellas keep an eye out for any sign of activity. They want a slice of the action. If they spot something, they'll run straight to the authorities with a) a complaint, b) a deal to cut said authority in for a "consideration".
Result: the innocent person, who probably just wanted out of the ratrace, gets turfed out on any old pretext that can stick, and, the "squeaky-clean developer" pulls in and everybody applauds and says how wonderful it is that he's helping the area, the community, etc etc.
A bit like Tesco really, who, you may remember, had no prob with their huge development near so-called "greenbelt" in Basildon and in numerous other locations.

2. Laws only work if folk obey them.

1. I don't want to make a big thing out of it but I still don't see how anybody could profit financially from reporting that someone is spending more time than he legally should in a motorhome on his own land. In the example we are considering on this thread it is surely the case that if you get on well with the locals there is no reason for them to report you but if you annoy them then they could report you in order to get back at you. No financial consideration comes in to it.

2. Absolute fact - but in this case, we (motorhomers) are in a distinct minority and if the majority want us to be opposed that is democracy - not very nice, but democracy. Refusal to obey worked with the Poll Tax because the campaign had majority support (including many magistrates who reluctantly had to enforce payment); it will not work for us unless we can persuade the majority to back us and I think that the majority has other things on its mind at the moment!

Btw, I enjoy a good "ding-dong" with people who annoy me with their agressive and bullying behaviour - otherwise, I enjoy a friendly reasoned debate ;)
 
Thanks for your reply again, JohnH.

No, as you say, there's no point making a big thing of it here, but I think what I'm trying to warn about is
the fact (imo) that it's not the locals per se who think up the objections, but rather,
"professionals", with an impressive overview and a business-oriented agenda, who
find the "silly little niggles" which they then use to encourage "locals" to object.

The whole point is not that they really care one way or the other about the "issue", but rather it's just
an excuse to get their "mates", in authority or "planning", on the, totally engineered ,case.

You must have seen it time and time again yourself, I'm sure, but, hey,
life is too short, and the weather too fickle, for us to be worrying too much about it here and now, imo. :D

sean rua.
 
Thanks for your reply again, JohnH.

No, as you say, there's no point making a big thing of it here, but I think what I'm trying to warn about is
the fact (imo) that it's not the locals per se who think up the objections, but rather,
"professionals", with an impressive overview and a business-oriented agenda, who
find the "silly little niggles" which they then use to encourage "locals" to object.

The whole point is not that they really care one way or the other about the "issue", but rather it's just
an excuse to get their "mates", in authority or "planning", on the, totally engineered ,case.

You must have seen it time and time again yourself, I'm sure, but, hey,
life is too short, and the weather too fickle, for us to be worrying too much about it here and now, imo. :D

sean rua.


One thing I can certainly agree on is that officers in the planning department (and most other council departments) are all too willing to blow small issues up into large ones in order to justify their own existence. I don't go along with the large scale corruption argument that is often put forward but there is no doubt that if they let go the minor things that are not causing anybody any real trouble then it would soon be obvious that they are over-staffed. The same can be seen at government level - where civil servants are always very happy to take EU rules that no-one else cares about and "develop" them for UK use to ridiculous levels. Shall we start the revolution now or just open another bottle of wine? :D
 

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