what is the law

Rincewind

Guest
Hi.
Im a tent person but have now upgraded as my wife is going to have a baby any day now and refuses to sleep on the floor any longer.
So ive just purcahased a camper and wondered what the law is.

I live near Llandudno. and the road going into the town over the orme runs along the sea front. spectacular views etc.

I notice many campers parked up along this stretch, there is a paddling pool. toilets and a shop or two so its popular in the summer.

There are no parking restrictions at all so am i right in assuming that you can pull up and stay over night on the public highway if there is nothing to say otherwise? and its simply a case of finding a road thats wide enough with a good view?


please educate me :

Rincewind
 
I can't see a problem parking anywhere that has no restrictions. Our road fund licence is paid and a campervan has the same rights as a motor car. The Police are telling us not to drive when tired/drunk or not feeling well. So if anybody tried to tell you to move on from a non restricted area they would surely be guilty of aiding and abetting an offence.
If I want to go to sleep in my car I can and the same applies in my campervan.
Obviously there may be restrictions i.e. yellow lines/private road etc. Lorry drivers sleep in their cabs and we sleep in our vans.
Regards
Terry
 
Hello,
Hope your enjoying the change from tent to campervan, I have spent a night on there without any problems, but personally dont like being on the road and would rather find a quiet off road layby or somthing along that line.

Take care & have fun

Cass :D
 
Hi rincewind, I also live near llandudno and have overnighted there and on the Llandulas beach a few times Rhyl prom too both east and west end. Dont go nearer the town centre than the paddling pool at llandudno or up by the houses but round the paddling pool is fine.
glad you are enjoying the change and unless there is a byelaw prohibiting the sleeping in a vehicle you are ok. BE WARNED THO
if you have had a drink and try to use this as an excuse not to move on you could be charged with IN CHARGE OF A VEHICLE WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE.
welcome to the land of the free the wildcampers
as Cass says I like to have an island of grass and preferably trees as well between me and the road when overnighting in a layby
Roi
 
If you are in bed or relaxing in the back of your camper and the ignition keys are not in the ignition. The burden of proof is upon the prosecution that you 'intended' to drive.


The reverse burden of proof provision in s 5(2) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 was to be read down pursuant to s 3(1) of the Human Rights Act 1998, in order for it to be compatible with art 6(2) of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, so that it imposed only an evidential burden on the accused.
The Queen's Bench Divisional Court so held (Henriques J dissenting) when allowing an appeal by the defendant, Peter Sheldrake, by way of case stated against his conviction by Harwich justices on 26 June 2001 of being in charge of a motor vehicle after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of alcohol in his breath exceeded the prescribed limit, contrary to s 5(1)(B) of the 1988 Act.
S 5 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 provided: "(1) If a person…(B) is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place, after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of it in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit he is guilty of an offence. (2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1)(B) above to prove that at the time he is alleged to have committed the offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle whilst the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit."

CLARKE LJ said that s 5(1)(B) of the 1988 Act, read with s 5(2), made an inroad on or derogated from the presumption of innocence in art 6(2) of the Convention because it enabled an accused to be convicted even though the court was not sure that there was a likelihood or risk of his driving. A legitimate aim was being pursued by s 5(2) in that the likelihood or otherwise of the accused driving would normally have involved consideration of the accused's present or future intention to drive. The burden of proving that the accused was driving or attempting to drive was on the prosecution. So too should the burden of proving that there was real risk of the accused who was in charge when over the limit driving the car, once the issue had been raised by the accused by pointing to some evidence that there was no likelihood of his doing so. The prosecution had failed to show that it was necessary to impose a legal burden on the accused to show that there was no likelihood of his driving while still over the limit. It had not been shown to be proportionate to impose a legal burden. It was possible to read down s 5(2) of the 1988 Act so that it imposed only an evidential burden, and it should have been so read under s 3(1) of the 1998 Act because it was necessary to do so in order to ensure that it was compatible with the Convention. S 5(2) could be read as follows: "It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1)(B) above to demonstrate from the evidence an arguable case that at the time he was alleged to have committed the offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle whilst the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit". If the accused satisfied the evidential burden, it was for the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the circumstances were not such that there was no likelihood of his driving whilst the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit.
 
That was a bit long winded for me what was the outcome ?

Cass :D
 
I didn't really understand most of it!!
I had just copied it from a website that seemed to be stating that the Human Rights Act court case has decided that the onus is on the prosecution to prove that a person is 'intending' to drive their vehicle while over the alchohol limit. i.e is sitting in the drivers seat fumbling with keys etc. and it is not up to the accused person to prove that they had no intention to drive.
I read it that if the vehicle is staionary and there is nobody on board that says they have any intention of driving then there is no case to answer. Therefore if the occupants are sound asleep or sitting in the back of the van chatting etc. then ther is no way that any authority can 'prove' that there was an intention to drive whilst inebriated. Another point that comes to mind is just who could be prosecuted for being over the drinking limit and intending to drive. The vehicle owner may not necessary be the driver and if there is more than one person in the van just who could be prosecuted as being 'intending to drive'

Quite a contentious issue I think, but that would make any prosecution virtually impossible for the authorities to prove.
Terry
 
they don't have to prove you intended to drive the charge is
IN CHARGE OF
not drunk driving.
I know one poor *** that was woken up by the police as he slept in the car due to having been ejected by angry spouse.
lost licence and big fine.. charge was drunk in charge not drunk driving
 
Well I guess id use been female to my advantage and either flirt like mad or cry one of them normally works for me.

Cass :D
 
do you think it would work for me Cass



If I put my "skirt" on.


:eek:

:D
 
Peter Sheldrake of Essex was convicted by magistrates for being drunk asleep in his vehicle. He appealed to the High Court and won the case as he stated that he had NO INTENTION TO DRIVE.

[/QUOTE]Can you be prosecuted for drink-driving if you are caught napping in your car after a few pints? In our Motoring Myths feature in issue 720 we told you yes - but now a landmark Court of Appeal ruling has changed the law.

Peter Sheldrake, from Hatfield Peverel in Essex, was convicted after cops found him asleep in his van. But judges have said the decision violated his human rights by denying him the presumption of innocence. Now prosecutors must show the accused intended to drive.
The next stage was an appeal by the prosecution in Oct 2004 where the Law Lords once again reversed the conviction and the charge was upheld.

Peter Sheldrake's legal team are now appealing the European Court of human rights and expect to win their case.
The reason being that it is an offence to be in charge of a vehicle whilst unfit etc. only if there is an intention to drive. The defence in this test case is whether the prosecution has to prove the intention to drive or is the accused expected to prove his innocence. Known as a 'reverse burden of proof'.
This matter should be resolved shortly.

The Law Lord Bingham stated in the case
"a person in charge of a car when unfit would be expected to hand the keys to someone else or stay well away from his vehicle."

So to my mind if the person in charge of the vehivle is over the limit and the camper keys are not in his possession but with another person in the camper then there can be no intention to drive and therefore no case!!!

I would most certainly argue the case fully should this ever happen
 
Hi all.....I seem to remember this coming up some years ago, it was a minefield then......

There was a defence of 'no likelihood' of the vehicle been driven that proved successful.

It was quite a while ago, and may be the same case that is quoted here (Peter Sheldrake)

I'm somewhat surprised that the issue is not yet resolved........but also you should be aware, that being in a camper van and being 'over the limit' is a whole different ball game from being in a car or a van .

It is at that moment in time, your abode.............
 
I agree !!!!
If disturbed during the night after having a couple (or more) glasses of wine I shall politely refuse to move on should I be asked.
 

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