What is Happening in the Real Economy ?

[Tow Itch]

If you're old enough the phrase "Electricity too cheap to meter" might ring a bell. It was lies given to a gullible public for the governments own ends. If we're equally gullible now we (and our children) will get what we deserve. As the newly generated electricity will be provided by private companies, that in itself causes as much a chill as winter I wonder have no other questions been posed. I can see many a company building (with suitable subsidies) nuclear power stations. Running them will also be no problem but mysteriously when it comes to decommissioning time I see the subsidiary companies mysteriously declaring bankruptcy and none of the great or good in British politics having seen it coming.
I see the myth of man made global warming lasting long enough to saddle us with these monstrosities. With UK research a thing of the past a foreign controlled monstrosity to. May vain hope is a government far sighted enough to look at energy resources as being more important than it's fear of it's own population and the re launch of mining in the UK. Numbers employed would not be the same for I doubt we would look at deep mining and opencast would be the visually blighting short term result.

 

[jamesmarshall]

We are living an Alice in Wonderland existance and sadly there is little chance of us waking up from it in the immediate future.

The Carbon tax, put in place as part of the EU anti-pollution directive is ridiculous. It penalises our high energy using industries such as glass production and aluminium processing. In order to overcome this the EU has come up with a wheeze to support these high energy industries whereby the tax is transferred to us via our energy bills.

The Labour government was at the vanguard of this highly expensive renewable energy programme but the present government has continued down the same path with equal relish. Wind turbines are proliferating our countryside and many more are yet to be built, both on and off shore at tremendous expense.

Private companies are paid a higher premium for supplying green energy to the national grid and if the wind is too strong at a time when extra energy is not needed, the energy companies are asked to turn off the turbines and are compensated (at the higher premium) for the energy they could have produced. Meanwhile every old style power station is needed to remain ticking over in order to be able to compensate, at a moments notice, for the energy that cannot be produced by the wind turbines when the wind doesn't blow.

On Monday last week the wind barely blew and all of the 4,300 wind turbines together were producing a mere 0.1% of the energy needed to supply the National Grid. The demand had to be met by conventional power stations. Despite this the government is set to close six coal fired power stations next month.

It is estimated that building enough wind turbines able to produce similar energy to one conventional gas powered station costs two to three times more. The EU answer to this is to double energy prices in order to make green energy appear a good and viable option. Prepare to watch your energy bills go through the roof over the next couple of years and buy a Tilley Lamp and a Onesie.

Recent research from Aberdeen University suggests that wind turbines built on land may produce more carbon than they purportedly save. The reasoning behind this is that the turbines are often built on peat moorland and the roads and infrastructure built to erect and service the turbines dries out the peat which in turn gives off the carbon dioxide it has captured into the atmosphere as it dries.

There are no plans at present to build any nuclear power stations. A French company was approached and asked to give an estimate for the designing, building and running of one but the company later pulled out. It would take approximately six years to design and commission a nuclear power station so don't hold your breath on that one.

Carbon capture technology has been mooted but at present it is only a theoretical idea and has not been proven to be viable.

The EU energy policy is an absolute shambles that is set to force god knows how many people into fuel poverty and it is being pursued with an almost evangelical fervour by our government. Our masters both at national level and within the European Union must be able to see the folly of this policy but the momentum seems unstoppable.

Without doubt, as a nation and individually we are extremely wasteful of energy and I suspect the EU policy is a long term one of weaning us off the need for the energy we use. sadly it is being foisted on us at a time when we are also being battered with extra punative taxes due to the recession which in turn is due to .............. (Fill in your own blank. Here are a few helpful suggestions: Bankers, Labour Government, Conservative Government, The EU, Capitalism, Communism, The Catholic Church, Gay Marriage, Lack of overnight parking for motorhomes, feckless parents.)
We are doomed I tell you!

 

[GRWXJR]

Just think.... if Maggie and the subsequent bang-wagon of leeches (sorry, politicians) hadn't flogged off the power infrastructure network for a microscopic fraction of its replacement value then....

1. The power co's wouldn't be hiking prices to pay the shareholder
2. What we did pay for energy would have been put back into the infrastructure (so even if we paid more, at least (with good management) it'd have been raising the bucks for the maintenance and upgrade of the network, rather than the maintenance and upgrade of the already outrageously wealthy at our expense.
3. Chances are we wouldn't be needing to put ourselves even further at the mercy of large foreign companies by getting them to build and run our power stations so they can make even more money off the taxpayer and charge us a fortune for our energy.

So once again, the huge co's that have no care for any social responsibility (that's a laugh - our Governments are supposed to look after this aspect, and look what they have done to us - sold everything and made us subservient to the demands and whims of Mr Global-Corp) have even greater control over our destiny.

Sometimes I wish I was a lot more stupid than I am already - at least then I'd be ignorant of the fact that I'm being sold down the river and royally shafted, and my future is looking grim and 'poverty' is a word I can expect to have applied to it. As I do not have plenty of money and pensions, then I am trapped and cannot escape whatever is going to happen (and it won't be good).

 

[GRWXJR]

Just to cheer you up further about your escalating power bills......

After wages, the water co's biggest outgoing is power (its not something we tend to relate to Water, but of course all the pumps and equipment that get you your water run off electricity, so the water co's use a LOT of the stuff).

So - if we are going to get fleeced on energy for the foreseeable, then your water rates are going to have to climb as well.

I'm starting to wish I'd bought a cottage with its own fresh-water spring, built on the side of a steep hill next to a steep, fast running water course with a decent amount of wind (south-facing of course). its starting to look like renewables (always such an expensive alternative to grid power) might actually start to look like the economical future option for cost-effectiveness and reliability (if you have the geographical situation to exploit them).

But I didn't. Hindsight is absolutely bloody useless, isn't it!

 

[sp2 boy]

I'm starting to wish I'd bought a cottage with its own fresh-water spring, built on the side of a steep hill next to a steep, fast running water course with a decent amount of wind (south-facing of course). its starting to look like renewables (always such an expensive alternative to grid power) might actually start to look like the economical future option for cost-effectiveness and reliability (if you have the geographical situation to exploit them).

But I didn't. Hindsight is absolutely bloody useless, isn't it!

...not totally useless!

Being in Wales already I thought that it should be easy for you to find steep terrain with plenty of fast running water and wind on your doorstep.

It's the poor sods who live in high rise flats and 'built up' towns/cities who are really screwed!

 

[GRWXJR]

sp2 boy:

Yes, its relatively easy to FIND such places (esp. compared to living in a Hi-Rise, though Wales does have some built-up bits too y'know!) but being able to AFFORD such a place is a whole different kettle of halibut!

Back when I was a kid in the 1970's then places like that, and bigger houses were being practically given away - not any more. In fact, the nicer parts of Wales have property that is disproportionately expensive when compared to the average wage. This is due to the fact that its a popular retirement destination or relocation - the low crime rate and better value for money in property is great if you're selling a place elsewhere and have the money, but not so good if you live and work here.

If you're selling up in SE England, retiring and buying then you get more for your money, and a nicer place to live - you can see the attraction. You're not looking for employment, and the move improves your lifestyle and might even release some cash as well - you can't blame people for thinking 'I'll have some of that'. But it does mean my chances of affording a place like that are about nil.

It does raise an interesting question about the local economy though - what happens to areas like Pembrokeshire, who must depend quite heavily on the retirement dollar, when the generations that HAVE those retirement funds peter out? Once the post-war generations fade away, then the amount of retirees with disposable income will reduce - so whats going to support local economies that have come to be dependent on them as an income stream? Could we see areas that are currently quite affluent suffering terminal decline as there'll be no industry and jobs there, and no money to support the local businesses established to service the comfortably-off retired?

Overall, you have to say that its very hard to think of any kind of positive future for the UK - deep decline seems to be inevitable, and in my lifetime. Time for another Lotto ticket then 'it could be you'.

 

[sp2 boy]

If you're selling up in SE England, retiring and buying then you get more for your money, and a nicer place to live - you can see the attraction. You're not looking for employment, and the move improves your lifestyle and might even release some cash as well - you can't blame people for thinking 'I'll have some of that'. But it does mean my chances of affording a place like that are about nil.

It does raise an interesting question about the local economy though - what happens to areas like Pembrokeshire, who must depend quite heavily on the retirement dollar, when the generations that HAVE those retirement funds peter out? Once the post-war generations fade away, then the amount of retirees with disposable income will reduce - so whats going to support local economies that have come to be dependent on them as an income stream? Could we see areas that are currently quite affluent suffering terminal decline as there'll be no industry and jobs there, and no money to support the local businesses established to service the comfortably-off retired?

Overall, you have to say that its very hard to think of any kind of positive future for the UK - deep decline seems to be inevitable, and in my lifetime. Time for another Lotto ticket then 'it could be you'.

With regards to the affluent 'old codgers' passing away, I agree with you that the next generation of retirees will have less disposable income.

I have a feeling that these places, hamlets/villages, will probably see a decline in local businesses, as you mentioned, when that happens and with nobody being able to afford to buy in the area it will be a downward spiral until it is 'run-down'. Once this happens and the property prices have bottomed in that area, the properties will hopefully become cheap enough so that the average local person can afford to move there again and bring new life to the area.

Sadly my feeling is that this sort of thing could take a decade to swing round from reaching the absolute bottom. As I have said on other threads, I fear that the general population in the UK will have a lot more pain and suffering to go through prior to everybody coming out at the other end. The State cannot continue to financially support the population as revenues drop due to lack of proper growth, ie manufacturing, placing an even bigger burden of taxation on an ever decreasing solvent population. Stomachs will become 'pressed-up' against our spines!

 

[Yogihughes]

"The State cannot continue to financially support the population"

Not as long as the State continues to ignore the future problems that will prevail by NOT having a commonsense approach to IMMIGRATION.

Is it just me that can see problems ahead by lifting restrictions at the end of the year on Bulgarians and others.

As those in charge made a huge mistake in estimating the number of immigrants rushing into the country over the last few years why should we believe them now that they say we can handle the numbers intending to travel to the UK.

I understand that we need a certain amount of immigrants BUT to immediately offer them ALL benefits and more when they have NOT contributed to the wealth of the country is beyond my comprehension.

I had a conversation yesterday with a guy (in his 40s I'd say) who has recently had some bad luck losing his job and also had some domestic trouble. Upshot is, he is now living in a "Model" (homeless person's hostel) in Glasgow. He has had no money for the last 5 weeks and although he receives his meals free at the moment, he will have to pay for them when he eventually receives his JSA. He told me, and here I must confess that I do not know if his words are true or not, that should he be lucky enough to find employment then his rent for living in this homeless hostel will increase to approx £150 per week.

He also stated that benefit advisors told him that as he was not drug dependent nor an alcoholic nor suffering from mental health problems then they could do little for him. IF he had been an immigrant and NOT a locally born citizen (again his words not mine) then things would be different " but tell anyone I told you that ".

The DWP offices would NOT entertain him until he had an e-mail address and as he has no local access to the internet he has to travel to the nearest library to fill out application forms etc.

As I have said I have been lucky enough (by working hard) not to have been out of work since the age of 15, now 64 and have been retired for 7 years so have little knowledge of being unemployed BUT surely we cannot go on increasing our population by uncontrolled immigration from Europe and putting further strain on our resources. Here I mean the National health Service and the Welfare State.

Sorry to have been long-winded, and I know I will receive quite a few brick-bats for posting these remarks but hey ho it is only how I see things based on my recent experiences and taking stock of what is happening around me at the moment.

 

[GRWXJR]

New Rover

I don't see why anyone would complain about what you've written - its just plain common sense (unless you're a politician, who seem to be just visiting this planet - they must be as they sure as hell don't seem to understand anything about it).

The analogy I used recently is that of the UK as a Lifeboat - it'll sustain a certain amount, but overload it and it'll sink and take everyone down with it.
Right now the Uk is being swamped, and our 'leaders' seem determined to put us under with a greater burden.
It may be harsh, but you have to batten down the hatches and leave people outside in order to save those already on board.

What you (and I) am saying is not racist, elitist or anything else 'ist'. Its just how it is.

Borders need to be closed, anyone not a resident needs to be found and deported, and any asylum seekers with criminal convictions in the UK should be automatically and immediately deported. Any immigrants unable to prove they have employment should not be permitted entry, and benefits should be unavailable to any immigrants until a suitable timeframe and contribution to the UK has been made.

This is just basic common sense and is essential - we don't have the luxury of being able to afford any other stance IMO. if we were loaded then being charitable is great and good - but we are a nation in deep financial schtuk and crisis. Why can't Politicians see this and actually act for the good of the electorate instead of taking us careering down the path to destruction?

 

[sp2 boy]

I am looking at migrating to another European country soon, Portugal on a permanent basis.

My understanding is that for me to actually become a resident there I need to register my intent to stay by the third month and will only be given residence status if I can show that either I have, a job to go to, private medical insurance or will be paying a monthly social security payment of 230Euros per month with a means to support myself.

Does anybody know if the UK does the same to immigrants from within the EU?

New Rover, there are elements of what the homeless man said were true, namely that if you are homeless it is easier to get a hostel if you have some sort of addiction that would benefit from treatment. With regards to the costing being £150 per week perhaps this is what the shelter charge the DWP/Government and it contains an element of counselling/warden care, I am not sure.

GRWXJR I believe that I only have entititlement to benefits in Portugal after a time-frame following payments into the social security pot, which I believe is fair enough.

 

[John H]

I am looking at migrating to another European country soon, Portugal on a permanent basis.

My understanding is that for me to actually become a resident there I need to register my intent to stay by the third month and will only be given residence status if I can show that either I have, a job to go to, private medical insurance or will be paying a monthly social security payment of 230Euros per month with a means to support myself.

Does anybody know if the UK does the same to immigrants from within the EU?

If you look at the UK Border Agency website:
UK Border Agency | Rights and responsibilities
you will find that similar rules apply to EU citizens wanting to live in the UK (although, interestingly, it does not precisely define what it means by a "burden on the state"!).

 

[sp2 boy]

If you look at the UK Border Agency website:
UK Border Agency | Rights and responsibilities
you will find that similar rules apply to EU citizens wanting to live in the UK (although, interestingly, it does not precisely define what it means by a "burden on the state"!).

I have read through the Border Agency site and I must say that it does appear more lax then some other European nations. As I said in Portugal if you are there for longer than three months in one stint you must apply for a 'residency certificate' and if your are there for more than 183 days there are taxation implications. There does not appear to be the requirement to get a residence certificate in the UK and hence the reason why the Border Agency have no idea of who or how many are in the country...It is a shambles here.

With regards to 'Johnny foreigner' taking the 'P' in the UK by not following the rules, you can see by this link to an 'expat site' which shows UK expats also not following the rules when they are living abroad! Staying at least 1 year in Portugal? : British Expat Discussion Forum

 

[ivecotrucker]

Hi sp2 boy. During Mrs Thatcher's 'improvements' to our economy I was an economic migrant to, of all places, Greece. I quickly got on well with the locals, including the police & the plain clothes state security people (*), non of whom seemed bothered about my prescence even though I was allegedly out there on a renewable yearly contract which they would have known about. Ironically the Anglo-Greek outfit I was working for was closed down for tax avoidance so it was back to job hunting in the UK.

We used to regularly spend more than three months a time in Italy and hopefully we will again in the future. I was aware of the 3 months thing because we had previously met several UK expats (apparently harmless OAPs) who had to continually report to the local cop shop even after some years of residence. We've sometimes been static for more than 3 months in one place, fruit picking for friends, & the local Carabinieri knew damn well where we parked up because they used to drive past every few days to check out a local drug user/?dealer's house but they always ignored us. Local friends told us that 'of course they knew who we were' but they weren't bothered.

I'm not saying it totally depends on who you are & how well you mix in locally but it sure seems to help.

(*) this isn't the place for the full story but when the sh*t hit the fan I was told that I was the only one not imprisoned & questioned because the local state security , unbeknown to me, knew the locals respected my attitude & behaviour. Outside the UK you never know who might be watching you & taking notes.

 

[John H]

I have read through the Border Agency site and I must say that it does appear more lax then some other European nations. As I said in Portugal if you are there for longer than three months in one stint you must apply for a 'residency certificate' and if your are there for more than 183 days there are taxation implications. There does not appear to be the requirement to get a residence certificate in the UK and hence the reason why the Border Agency have no idea of who or how many are in the country...It is a shambles here.

With regards to 'Johnny foreigner' taking the 'P' in the UK by not following the rules, you can see by this link to an 'expat site' which shows UK expats also not following the rules when they are living abroad! Staying at least 1 year in Portugal? : British Expat Discussion Forum

It is certainly true that the likes of Spain and Portugal appear on paper to be more precise but to a large extent this is window-dressing, as I think you may have discovered from your researches about ex-pats. Most people who overwinter down here are here for a lot more than 3 months but very few register. In fact, I have known two who have tied to play it by the book and they were both told to politely get lost! As for the 6 months and tax thing, well............................

For the purposes of accuracy, I, of course, am never in the country for more than 3 months :rolleyes2: