What’s the law on pub stopovers

merl said:
That's how I understood it worked too. Can't remember any form of timescale either.
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Yes it was discussed a while back on this thread;

Council not happy with Motorhomes in Pub Car Parks

Some idiot in the Local Council has nothing better to do. Pubs are struggling as it is now the Council seem to think its against the planning application for overnight Motorhome parking.
wildcamping.co.uk wildcamping.co.uk

(See post #14) although I'm not sure what the source of the information was the interesting quote is "The Council cannot object on amenity grounds unless it is a listed building or conservation area etc when formal planning permission would be required" - That maybe just somebody's interpretation of it though rather than a quote from an official document.
 
It is a matter of notifying the Council each year with the dates that the "campsite" will be in use. So the case of a pub, as an example, they could notify the Council that they will operate the "campsite" every Saturday night that year. They would also need to give adequate information on the facilities available, e.g toilets and waste disposal. If those requirements are satisfied the Council cannot object as it would be classed as "permitted development". There are exceptions, e.g. a pub that is a listed building wouldn't be able to use the "60 day" rule. There are also means by which the Council could prevent any pub within a prescribed area from benefitting from the rule, but they would have to go through a formal legal process to achieve this.
 
I'm guessing the 28 day rule was seen as being difficult to monitor by councils and this led to it's demise, 60 day rule could be used by many pubs, but it's inflexibility makes it much less useful for them.
A publican breaking the rules could face servir consequences from stroppy council officials.
 
I think it was a knee jerk reaction to the covid era to give some quick fix options for the hospitality sector, as always, writing meaningful legislation to cover all eventualities is an impossible task. So after July this year, pubs lost out on the 28 day rule when that consequence probably hadn't even crossed the draftsman's mind.
 
Robmac said:
Greene King were one of the worst, they discovered that a lot of their pubs were worth more as real estate than outlets and used every trick in the book to force landlords out (according to the ones I spoke too). Usually huge increases in the rent so they couldn't make a living.
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Strangely, two of my favourites (Fromebridge MIll and Squinting Cat) are Greene King pubs and both are super motorhome-friendly.
Canalsman said:
The CDA to which he refers is the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. According to Google without a site being licenced by the local authority only one 'caravan' may stopover.

So presumably local authorities can take action against pubs.
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Perhaps best to read the actual legislation: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/8-9/62/contents and in particular the exemptions given in the first schedule. If the site is big enough (> 5 acres) that number can be increased to three 'vans but there's still a 28 day limit.
merl said:
Caravan sites and development act only applies to caravans not motorhomes Chris 👍
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The definition contained in that legislation (clicky link) is as follows:
  • “caravan” means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted, but does not include—
    • any railway rolling stock which is for the time being on rails forming part of a railway system, or
    • any tent;
So, "caravan" includes motorhomes for the purposes of this legislation.
Of course, the first schedule, para 2. at least implies that the 'caravan' must be used for habitation purposes while sited -- and so merely parking (but not sleeping in the van) should be fine.

Perhaps the best 'defence' for pubs who want to provide stopovers might be to approach CAMpRA et al. an get certification.
 
GeoffL said:
Strangely, two of my favourites (Fromebridge MIll and Squinting Cat) are Greene King pubs and both are super motorhome-friendly.
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Yes I've stayed at the Fromebridge Mill many times myself and I agree it's a great stopover. But it's one of their flagship sites where lots of food is served and it has a very high footfall.

Greene King are (or certainly where when I traded with them) more interested in getting rid of the smaller, traditional locals pubs which can't compete with places like the Fromebridge profit wise.
 
guerdeval said:
apparently 2 other pubs in Harrogate
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Just spotted where this is, and hope it doesn't include the Squinting Cat as that's almost always a stopover for us on the way up to Scotland. Just checked and they've got some terrible reviews on TripAdvisor, but we've stopped there about half a dozen times and always received a good welcome, so those reviews don't match our experience. Sure the food is just catering fare á la ping, but it's still tasty and inexpensive. I truly hope we haven't lost that one!
 
Robmac said:
Yes I've stayed at the Fromebridge Mill many times myself and I agree it's a great stopover. But it's one of their flagship sites where lots of food is served and it has a very high footfall.

Greene King are (or certainly where when I traded with them) more interested in getting rid of the smaller, traditional locals pubs which can't compete with places like the Fromebridge profit wise.
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In the village I grew up in, the Greene King pub had a loyal but small customer base, didn't serve food, the landlady had been there many years. Greene King decided it had to be sold, this was achieved by putting up the rent to a stupidly high figure, it stood empty for a couple of years being ' activity marketed' at a rent nobody would be interested in, it could then be 'proved' to be unviable and change of use was obtained for a housing development.
 
colinm said:
In the village I grew up in, the Greene King pub had a loyal but small customer base, didn't serve food, the landlady had been there many years. Greene King decided it had to be sold, this was achieved by putting up the rent to a stupidly high figure, it stood empty for a couple of years being ' activity marketed' at a rent nobody would be interested in, it could then be 'proved' to be unviable and change of use was obtained for a housing development.
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Yes it happens a lot Colin. We've lost many Greene King pubs around St Neots in the last 20 years and I gather that we are going to lose more.

The old Falcon on the market square has stood empty for years. A crying shame - a nice very old building on the river. Also the Chequers in Eynesbury, used to be a great pub/restaurant but developers have been after it for years but couldn't get plans as it's a listed thatched building. What's the betting that there will be a mysterious fire there before long?
 
Harrogate hasn't got a council! When we became North Yorkshire last year, Harrogate Borough Council was abolished. They are now trying to re-instate it, probably next year. Scarborough is in the same position. If they are re-instated, they will only have the powers of a Parish Council. This doesn't mean that North Yorkshire won't try and ban pubs from having Motorhomes staying over but it will cover a much larger area.
 
If you eat and drink at the pub having previously asking if you could stop there for the night without fees, you'd be stopping as their guests.
Shurley a council can't choose your friends? ;)

Mark
 
SquirrellCook said:
If you eat and drink at the pub having previously asking if you could stop there for the night without fees, you'd be stopping as their guests.
Shurley a council can't choose your friends? ;)

Mark
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Don't think it would be enforceable
Council threats may well stop some pubs offering this service though
 
SquirrellCook said:
If you eat and drink at the pub having previously asking if you could stop there for the night without fees, you'd be stopping as their guests.
Shurley a council can't choose your friends? ;)

Mark
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Perhaps they cannot choose your friends. However, they can choose what your friends can and cannot do!
 
Essentially its a simple issue, pub is operating a "caravan site" and not complying with the licencing requirement of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.

The solution is for them to apply to one of the organisations that is authorised to grant them an Exemption Certificate allowing up to 5 vans to stay overnight.

The two obvious organizations that could help, depending on the circumstances, are CAMpRA: https://www.camprarally.org.uk/contact-us.html and the Motor Caravanners Club: https://www.themotorcaravannersclub.co.uk/be_one_of_our_cl_or_ns_sites.php
 
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