What’s the law on pub stopovers

[guerdeval]

just stayed over in Harrogate at a pub that was told by council to stop allowing campers overnight, luckily they have an ‘out of view’ rear carpark but apparently 2 other pubs in Harrogate were told the same.

 

[colinm]

I believe they would need 28day, 60(?)day, have a cl/cs, or be licensed.

 

[Robmac]

Possibly following complaints by campsite owners?

Seems a bit trivial to me.

 

[merl]

I don't know what the law is but I'd guess it would be far from cut and dry, after all customers often leave a car overnight on a pub car park so why is a MH any different(in law,)?
What I DO know is that councils will often apply pressure to get what they want to achieve without having a 100% legal case to do so, basically they'll bully the pub into getting what they want and typically the pub will back down because they don't fully understand the law and don't want hassle.

 

[Robmac]

There are hundreds of struggling pubs offering this nowadays and all power to them as at the moment we are losing dozens every month.

2019	527
2020	349
2021	280
2022	512
2023	332*

Figures from The Insolvency Service *to the end of May 2023

It really p1sses me off when 'Mr red tape' steps in and kicks somebody when they are down!

 

[mariesnowgoose]

Pub closures have been increasing year-on-year for over 20 years now, Rob, I think the pandemic just added a lot more nails to the coffins.

A good friend of mine who worked - successfully - in the pub trade nearly all his life saw the writing on the wall and got out of the trade back in 2004.
The big brewing companies have often been the biggest culprits with their (excessively greedy) terms and conditions for non-freehold pub landlords.

Many other small and medium size businesses are being squeezed every which way too, not just pubs.

Can't see the situation getting better quickly any time soon.

The big nationals, and especially the globals, won't be losing out though.

 

[Robmac]

Pub closures have been increasing year-on-year for over 20 years now, Rob, I think the pandemic just added a lot more nails to the coffins.

A good friend of mine who worked - successfully - in the pub trade nearly all his life saw the writing on the wall and got out of the trade back in 2004.
The big brewing companies have often been the biggest culprits with their (excessively greedy) terms and conditions for non-freehold pub landlords.

Many other small and medium size businesses are being squeezed every which way too, not just pubs.

Can't see the situation getting better quickly any time soon.

The big nationals, and especially the globals, won't be losing out though.

I used to have contracts with a few of the big pub chains Marie and they are ruthless.

Greene King were one of the worst, they discovered that a lot of their pubs were worth more as real estate than outlets and used every trick in the book to force landlords out (according to the ones I spoke too). Usually huge increases in the rent so they couldn't make a living.

 

[mariesnowgoose]

I used to have contracts with a few of the big pub chains Marie and they are ruthless.

Greene King were one of the worst, they discovered that a lot of their pubs were worth more as real estate than outlets and used every trick in the book to force landlords out (according to the ones I spoke too). Usually huge increases in the rent so they couldn't make a living.

Yup. That's the method. Seems to have been pretty successful.

Robber barons the lot of 'em!

 

[r4dent]

What’s the law on pub stopovers.

Quite simple really.
If the landlord says "YES" you can stay.
If the landlord says "NO" you can't.

The landlord doesn't have to justify his stance.
There are many reasons for him to say "NO"
e.g previous bad experience / brewery policy / council pressure (remember they grant his license) / local prejudice / small car park / bylaws .

Don't argue with his decision, just take your money elsewhere.

Don't assume you are allowed to overnight always ask (and also ask where to park).

Don't give him a reason to say "NO" to other people.

 

[Robmac]

Quite simple really.
If the landlord says "YES" you can stay.
If the landlord says "NO" you can't.

The landlord doesn't have to justify his stance.
There are many reasons for him to say "NO"
e.g previous bad experience / brewery policy / council pressure (remember they grant his license) / local prejudice / small car park / bylaws .

Don't argue with his decision, just take your money elsewhere.

Don't assume you are allowed to overnight always ask (and also ask where to park).

Don't give him a reason to say "NO" to other people.

Sounds like the council at Harrogate are operating outside this illegally then?

 

[r4dent]

Sounds like the council at Harrogate are operating outside this illegally then?

Not sure how you came to this conclusion.

I don't approve of what they are doing but it will need a court to decide if it is legal.

It needs someone to ask Harrogate council to put their position in writing and then contest it in court.
Alternatively someone could ask the MP to raise the matter with the council.

 

[Robmac]

Not sure how you came to this conclusion.

I don't approve of what they are doing but it will need a court to decide if it is legal.

It needs someone to ask Harrogate council to put their position in writing and then contest it in court.
Alternatively someone could ask the MP to raise the matter with the council.

Oh well, never mind. Just my opinion.

 

[colinm]

Having looked to see if anything has changed lately, and it seems as though from July the 28 day rule cannot be used anymore, so they would need to apply under '60 day rule' or go down the cl/cs route.

 

[Canalsman]

The much missed Channa opined about pub stops:

Pub stop mis-use

I've phoned a lot of pubs lately (half a dozen ish) and am starting to get the same story. Either a flat no, or they are charging to stay in the car park, irrespective of you having booked a meal. And the reason is always the same - people taking the p!ss. So thanks to the free loading lot...

wildcamping.co.uk

The CDA to which he refers is the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. According to Google without a site being licenced by the local authority only one 'caravan' may stopover.

So presumably local authorities can take action against pubs.

 

[Robmac]

Having looked to see if anything has changed lately, and it seems as though from July the 28 day rule cannot be used anymore, so they would need to apply under '60 day rule' or go down the cl/cs route.

Isn't it a case of inform rather than apply under the 60 day rule?

 

[merl]

The much missed Channa opined about pub stops:

Pub stop mis-use

I've phoned a lot of pubs lately (half a dozen ish) and am starting to get the same story. Either a flat no, or they are charging to stay in the car park, irrespective of you having booked a meal. And the reason is always the same - people taking the p!ss. So thanks to the free loading lot...

wildcamping.co.uk

The CDA to which he refers is the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. According to Google without a site being licenced by the local authority only one 'caravan' may stopover.

So presumably local authorities can take action against pubs.

Caravan sites and development act only applies to caravans not motorhomes Chris

 

[Canalsman]

Caravan sites and development act only applies to caravans not motorhomes Chris

Unfortunately not. It applies equally to motor caravans.

 

[merl]

Unfortunately not. It applies equally to motor caravans.

Only if someone is living in it

 

[alcam]

Caravan sites and development act only applies to caravans not motorhomes Chris

Channa (indeed much missed) was of the opinion that pubs were not allowed to do it . Quite possibly legally correct.
I pointed out that you'd almost certainly 'get away with it' . Think we agreed to disagree on that .
If I had a country pub I would have done it .
Channa was referring there to miserable gits who parked up and didn't use the pub
Quite right too . Don't stop at pubs that charge for parking but some charge and then refund . Makes sense

 

[Val54]

Check out the earlier thread .......

Council not happy with Motorhomes in Pub Car Parks

Some idiot in the Local Council has nothing better to do. Pubs are struggling as it is now the Council seem to think its against the planning application for overnight Motorhome parking.

wildcamping.co.uk