To tow or not to tow when wild camping?

Maroy

Guest
Hi. From my last post I have struck up a great communication with a fellow member who has helped me enormously with our plans to take a year to see France, Portugal and Spain. We are travelling in an American motor home and have a car we tow on an A Frame. My member friend advises us not to take the car, due to security reasons. Leaving the motor home and car being stolen are two worry's he has cited. He advises we remain with our MH 24 x 7. On the otherhand, number one son, who has wild camped in a converted bus wants us to take it as he found difficulties getting around shops for supplys particularly, in Portugal and in sight seeing in the mountains etc. His bus wouldn't go everywhere. He said fellow wildcampers looked after his bus when he went off and he looked after theirs when they did.
What has been your experience? Please take the time to post your opinions as I am now very confused as to what to do. Thanks, best wishes, Mary.
 
hi it is illgal to tow a car with a aframe in europe especially traveling through france and spain.
 
Hi.

A major point worth keeping in mind would be that towing anything would probably exclude you from using the vast majority of French Aires, and no doubt also the growing number that can now be found in Spain and Portugal.

I would have thought that any longer trip, particularly when in France, would have relied heavily on these. For instance last year of the 3 weeks we where in France and Spain we only spent 2 nights on a site (Spanish coast) many of the rest where spent in aires non of which I would have considered either physicaly suitible for or permissable to stop with a towed vehicle. (car parking is not permited on many French Aires).
 
hi it is illgal to tow a car with a aframe in europe especially traveling through france and spain.

Dont think that's true, I've read somewhere that as long as you carry the appropriate UK paperwork then the rest of the EU has to recognise that its legal. It may have been a thread on here, but I'm too lazy to look it up :)
 
Dont think that's true, I've read somewhere that as long as you carry the appropriate UK paperwork then the rest of the EU has to recognise that its legal. It may have been a thread on here, but I'm too lazy to look it up :)

The problem is that it does not conform to the road traffic regulations in the UK either, is just that up to now the authorities have chosen not to take action against those that transgress. The result of this is that in europe where 'A' frames are not legal, (most European traffic law is based on the principle that anything not specified as being legal is illegal, generaly the opposite is true in UK), no evidence can be used to show that its use is LEGAL in the UK, and therefore does not have to be accepted by any other EU country.
 
Thanks guys. The firm that fitted our A frame supplied us with paperwork to take abroad with us which is supposed to prove we are legal. We have been around and about in this country and have passed police who haven't batted an eyelid, some even parked next to us on a service station. However, I'm getting jittery about taking it abroad now and the point about the aires is a great help. Like you say, we will want to use these and if they don't allow cars, well... Is there anyone who has actually towed and can give me another view? Thanks once again. Best wishes, everyone. Mary.
PS: At the moment it looks like it is going up for sale! Anyone interested in a 2000 matiz, 50,000 miles, MOT'd 9 months, taxed and fitted with a fully braked A frame?
 
Hi

Hi all, not to sure of the A frame bit, but do know that they will become illegal
within a year or so within europe and the UK.
However I have towed all over europe 1st with a quad bike behind and then with a smart car and have never had anyone turn us away. For sure you need to know that the unit can get into the space at the stop over and only once have I had to park the trailer away from the motorhome, but thats when a wheel clamp comes into play.
One think to note is that unlike here in the UK, within europe trailers need their own log books and number plates so its not so easy for the would be tow rage to take your trailer.
If someone says you need to remain with your motorhome 24/7 the I think there is something wrong with them.
Last year I bumped into a brit towing a new morgan V8 behind his hymer in italy, made my little smart look like a toy.
michael
 
Don't think that's true, I've read somewhere that as long as you carry the appropriate UK paperwork then the rest of the EU has to recognise that its legal. It may have been a thread on here, but I'm too lazy to look it up :)
the problem is whilst it is not illegal to use an "A" frame in Britain, neither is it legal. Legal meaning conforming with set legislation that can be quoted. Everybody interprets the law as they see it and it is a grey area. If you take it and do not have a second driver with you you may get stuck, why not carry a motorcycle or scooter instead.
 
the problem is whilst it is not illegal to use an "A" frame in Britain, neither is it legal. Legal meaning conforming with set legislation that can be quoted. Everybody interprets the law as they see it and it is a grey area. If you take it and do not have a second driver with you you may get stuck, why not carry a motorcycle or scooter instead.

Roger, you haven't seen my bottom! A scooter would buckle under me, bless it! But i am dieting...

Like you say the legality is a grey area. Some people confuse an A frame with a dolly frame. An A frame technically turns your car into a trailer. It is braked and all lights and indicators work. (similar to a caravan towing unit) A Dolly frame is used to tow a break down for a short distance, but some people use them to tow their car behind their van. That practice has no grey area it is illegal.
 
Up until last year I used a trailer with Smart but the nuisance was finding space for the trailer and the car, with a large motorhome you definitely need something to pop into town etc, this year I have a Chris Cox towing frame, everything I can understand from my studies make this perfectly legal as the towed vehicle complies with lighting regs,braking regs and becomes,in the eyes of the law a trailer, you therefore need reflectors (whether lights on or not) and display the reg number of the towing vehicle. All this complies to UK regulations and therefore is legal in all other European Countries. Because the custom made frame cannot be used unless the towed car has the necessary front bar and brake coupling it cannot be construed as a 'recovery frame' which can be used ONLY for recovery of immobile vehicles and nor for towing. I'm in Spain now, been through Portugal and live in France, I've never been stopped except once by a Spanish traffic cop who just wanted to see how it worked. One of the other motorhome sites actually has a 'quote' from a DVLA official saying much the same thing, you can print it off in several languages if you can find the site.
 
help

Hi
lots of info on caravan-motorhome-help co uk about towing we tow .hope this helps
pete:)
 
A-frame on the continent

I did some investigation about A-frames over here on the continent. Here are the results:
1. Officials never heard of it ! (not surprising; most are deaf or blind overhere :D ) so it does not exist ! :eek:
2. If there is more than 350kg hooked up: it should be braked and registered as a trailer (own licence-plate, triangular cat-eyes, lights.....)
3. No one knows how a car could be registered as a trailer ! :confused:
4. If not it could only been regarded as an emergency setting: speed limits .....
5. But: most important: if it is OK for the UK the rest of the EU could only comply. :(
6. Weird people those British ! :(:D;)
 
'A' Frames

Thanks guys. The firm that fitted our A frame supplied us with paperwork to take abroad with us which is supposed to prove we are legal. We have been around and about in this country and have passed police who haven't batted an eyelid, some even parked next to us on a service station. However, I'm getting jittery about taking it abroad now and the point about the aires is a great help. Like you say, we will want to use these and if they don't allow cars, well... Is there anyone who has actually towed and can give me another view? Thanks once again. Best wishes, everyone. Mary.
PS: At the moment it looks like it is going up for sale! Anyone interested in a 2000 matiz, 50,000 miles, MOT'd 9 months, taxed and fitted with a fully braked A frame?

Hi I am new to this site

I found this site very interesting like you I think I better sell my Ford Ka on an A frame bit difficult as I am in Southern Spain.
Might add this is the secend time I have towed the car here through France into Spain.
Like you I have documents in English Spainish and French the English say's

The regulations when towing a car/trailer behind a motorhome in the UK:
when attached with afixed towing frame the car is considered to be a trailer and is subject to trailer regulations and use regulations.
A number of EEC directives apply to UK trailer regulations. A car on tow with afixed towing device is difined as a steerable, multi-axle trailer.

The general practice agreements of the EEC state:

Provided a vehicle complies with the contruction and use regulations in its country of registraction, no modifications have to be made when the vehicle or vehicle/trailer combination is subsequently temporarily imported into another member country.

I agree that the Guarda have been known to fine drivers it happened here during the Chistmas period Locals say this is usual. For having a full gas bottle in their car without a certificate after buying it from the local garage/ for not stopping at the stop marking in the road even when the road was clear/ for crossing a solid white line whilst turning into a caravan site.
how do I know because I live here.

Not all bad they will let you wild camp at San Juan before you get to Aguilas right next to the beach officially for 2 nights came past to-day quite a few large motorhomes parked up.

Regards

Dave
 
Up until last year I used a trailer with Smart but the nuisance was finding space for the trailer and the car, with a large motorhome you definitely need something to pop into town etc, this year I have a Chris Cox towing frame, everything I can understand from my studies make this perfectly legal as the towed vehicle complies with lighting regs,braking regs and becomes,in the eyes of the law a trailer, you therefore need reflectors (whether lights on or not) and display the reg number of the towing vehicle. All this complies to UK regulations and therefore is legal in all other European Countries. Because the custom made frame cannot be used unless the towed car has the necessary front bar and brake coupling it cannot be construed as a 'recovery frame' which can be used ONLY for recovery of immobile vehicles and nor for towing. I'm in Spain now, been through Portugal and live in France, I've never been stopped except once by a Spanish traffic cop who just wanted to see how it worked. One of the other motorhome sites actually has a 'quote' from a DVLA official saying much the same thing, you can print it off in several languages if you can find the site.

Sorry to disappoint but there are some significant inaccuracies in the above. the most obvious one is that regarding the brakes, although the set up used meets the regulations for service brakes it fails to meet the requirement should the trailer become detatched. This states that in the event of the trailer becoming detatched from the towing vehicle brakes on all wheels should be applied (and stay applied) by mechanical(i.e.cable or rod)means. This is the reason that despite the extra cost and complication trailer manufacturers us rod & cable systems.
The second point never properly address by those attempting to part you from your money is one of control. Anything constructed for use on the road should be capable of being under proper control at all times, this would include the ability to reverse and not just for a very short distance in a straight line. Unfortunatly the only reason a car tows forwards and follows the towing vehicle is due to the castor angle of the front wheels, this natural means the wheels will swing to full lock when trying to reverse. This is a matter of physics not skill.
Another point not considered is that all vehicles regestered since 1997 are required to meet "Whole vehicle type approval". In effect this means that not only must the vehicle itself be type approved, anything that is then fixed to it must also be, and the fixing points it is fixed to must be specificly for that purpose. The most obvious application of this is in the fixing of towbars, a fuller explanation can be found on one of the trailer/towing web sites. My personal concern would be that eventualy one of these vehicles fitted with a bar across the front will be involved in an accident where there is a serious injury, I wonder how long an insurance company will stick around when it transpires that the vehicle is not legal????

As for the final point regarding the quote from the "DVLA official" if you check it out you will find that the original quote is from VOSA (the agency that deals with these matters) and it is, I believe, a deliberate misquote. I can't remember the exact wording, but the VOSA quote went:-

"IF an 'A' frame COULD be made to meet ALL the necessary regulations we see no reason that it would not be legal, HOWEVER WE (VOSA) FAIL TO SEE HOW THIS COULD EVER BE POSSIBLE"

This you will see gives the opposite message that the misqoute on the other forum gives.

I (unlike some of those with the opposing view) have nothing to personaly gain from this and I can assure you that it is not an attack on anyone, but an attempt to redress statements that I believe to be wrong. I would like to add that all the is researchable on various sites but did take many many hours, an exercise I neither have the time or the will to repeat again.

For those of you if any still awake at this point sorry for boring you but I hope you may have found some of it informative.
 
the problem is whilst it is not illegal to use an "A" frame in Britain, neither is it legal. Legal meaning conforming with set legislation that can be quoted. Everybody interprets the law as they see it and it is a grey area. If you take it and do not have a second driver with you you may get stuck, why not carry a motorcycle or scooter instead.

Because, again the legal situation! If you add the weight of the Carrier and the bike / scooter it is quite easy to find that you are in excess of your back Axle Weight limit.
Of cause it will depend on size of van and axle weights.
 
Must agree with ***** on this, but as most members on here break the law most every time they park up then why not, if you take the key out and lock the steering you can reverse like a normal trailer. I have a O5' KA sublime with all the extras which will be for sale when I come back to UK in March if anyones interested complete with the coupling/electrics etc, I'll be getting a bigger MB 'A' series as my Doberman puppy seems to be crossed with an elephant.
 
Must agree with ***** on this, but as most members on here break the law most every time they park up then why not, if you take the key out and lock the steering you can reverse like a normal trailer. I have a O5' KA sublime with all the extras which will be for sale when I come back to UK in March if anyones interested complete with the coupling/electrics etc, I'll be getting a bigger MB 'A' series as my Doberman puppy seems to be crossed with an elephant.

How does this work? My husband says surly this will just lock the wheels? Maybe yours is different to ours? As soon as we reverse our breaks on the car come on and if we continue we burn rubber. Nice to hear from someone who is actually abroad and towing. I'm confused now, shall I or shouldn't I?
 
Thanks guys. The firm that fitted our A frame supplied us with paperwork to take abroad with us which is supposed to prove we are legal. We have been around and about in this country and have passed police who haven't batted an eyelid, some even parked next to us on a service station. However, I'm getting jittery about taking it abroad now and the point about the aires is a great help. Like you say, we will want to use these and if they don't allow cars, well... Is there anyone who has actually towed and can give me another view? Thanks once again. Best wishes, everyone. Mary.
PS: At the moment it looks like it is going up for sale! Anyone interested in a 2000 matiz, 50,000 miles, MOT'd 9 months, taxed and fitted with a fully braked A frame?
If all the brakes are operated when the towing vehicle brakes and all rear lamps work with the towing vehicles then I think you will find it is legal.
 
Why not leave your car behind and just hire a car as and when you really need it ?
Then of course there is public transport.....bicycles.....walking....
As for staying with your van 24/7 that is just crazy !!.......get a good alarm system for peace of mind and enjoy your travels......
Lynda
 

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