split charge system

I was recently criticised for carrying my new solar panel inboard while travelling. I normally charge up the batteries (engine and habitation) off the house mains, then the alternator does its job when travelling and finally I will slide out the solar panel on arrival.

I cannot see the need to have multiple systems running at the same time. It is not necessary because of the way in which we use the m/home.

I firmly believe that if you make a system which puts a very heavy charge back into a flat battery, you will shorten its life considerably.
 
we may have misled you .having them on the roof means when you go into a super market etc you can still be charging if its connected. i suppose as i live in my van for 6mths i get into habit of switching this and that to suit . its more difficult to put up a panel say if parking in a street and leaving the van . maybe for you its ok .i look at it as a live in camper. its hard to get enough power and we tend to not want to waste even a short time of sun. try it see how you get on nothing is fixed i stone. what works for one may not another . does take a while to get the system that suits you. you can add or take away at your leisure /purse at will.
 
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to be honest that seemsliken expensive way of joining the batteries a big manual switch is very cheap and at least you have control.
start on engine battery then switch the leisure side on. simple .i find relays always go wrong just when you need them. big cable big switch. perfect.
Yes, but only until you forget and end up with either a flat starter battery or a flat leisure battery. At the very least us the oil pressure switch or ignition circuit to switch a relay on and off as the engine runs. Still not perfect but about the cheapest way to overcome forgetfulness.

To be honest I have never found this to be a problem if you do it right.

As for a flat vehicle battery this just wont happen in my set up. Once I am using the van for camping my control panel is right next to the kitchen and I always look at the switch as I am cooking etc. Or when I switch the fridge to gas or 240 v after a journey I always check the charging switch. In fact I flick the charge off and the caravan electrics on, moving the two switches together. So I can't use the caravan electrics without flicking the on switch and since I always move those two switches in pairs I'll automatically isolate the leisure batteries.

As for a flat leisure battery, I suppose I could forget to put it on charge when starting a journey. This has never happened to me but it would only be critical after wilding not from home or from a site as the leisure battery would then already be charged. I've used a second battery on a switch, not a relay, for 15 years while sleeping in cars, and never ended up with a flat battery yet.

So the switch is definitely a workable system, for me anyway. It's more versatile and also more reliable electro-mechanically. Check out the number of threads you see of people with charging problems because their relay has packed up.
 
PV panels and Temperature/Shading

i also think the cold air going over the panel can stop it working but cant give definate proof yet. maybe mildred can let us know.

If I understand correctly you are asking about the effect of temperature on PV panels. I'm really a battery and charge-controller specialist, but obviously that entails knowing a fair bit about the sources of RE power.

I'll save people the mathematics, but it is interesting. (Where's the "geek" emoticon when you need one? other boards have them...)
Geek.gif


Temperature has two effects on the output from PV panels - on the current and the open-circuit voltage. Lets get the least important one out of the way first - Current. There is a very small increase in the possible current - much less than 0.1% per degree C. The exact figure depends on the physical chemistry of the silicon. You'll never be able to make use of this though because:

Voltage drops by 0.2% to 0.5% for every degree C rise, again depending on exactly what the physical chemistry of the cells is. I have graphs of performance in this area - it's not linear, but good enough for general discussion.

Next point - PV panels get hot. I've recorded temperatures of 30C above ambient. so what may seem to be quite small losses according to the figures above really mount up. Typically, in domestic RE installations, we're dealing with no more than 48V configurations so these losses can become critical. When you consider that with "proper" charge controllers I'm setting fractions of a volt to control charging to batteries and to switch between sources you can see why temperature does get crucial.

What can we do? I work on RE systems installed on buildings and stand-alones, not vehicles, so there are some extra things available - forced ventilation and liquid cooling.
Whilst one could come up with some interesting ram-air aerofoils on a roof of a van to cool above and below, it's beyond my knowledge. I'm sure there will be some ideas put forward.

I'd be worried about ripping the panels off the fibreglass roof with the wind.

Certainly I believe that mounting the PV panels flush on the roof is doing you no favours at all, other than structural and anti-theft ones.

There's some interesting development going on with liquid calcium chloride cooling - I'm not involved with that, but probably will be at some time.

What is clear, is that combined solar hot water and PV electric panels, have, shall we say, a lot of inherent inefficiencies to overcome. :) Don't believe what the salesmen say!

Whilst forced coolng, whether air or liquid, does take power to run, indications are that on balance you come out ahead by several percentage points. Similarly with tracker systems - the gain achieved by accurately following the sun far outweighs the power taken to run the motors to move the panels.

Not that you have to have motors - we've seen one extremely effective system that is just a big panel supported on ropes from a convenient tree, that is then moved around by guy ropes to the ground. The children at that installation have been well trained!

It hasn't come up in discussions here - unless I've missed it - but it's very clear that intermittent shading is a killer to output. I'm talking about dappled sunshine through tree leaves and clouds. It has a far greater effect than one might think - especially as the panels appear to be well illuminated.

It's not trivial to analyse exactly what's going on with PV panels. A simple battery and diode system just sinks the voltage and you end up measuring the plate voltage, introduce any ordinary charge-controller and you're measuring the characteristics of that.

Can't remember who said it, but for non critical use the idea of buying a couple of cheap batteries and charging them as best you can, knowing that they'll only give limited service, will be the answer for many, especially non full-timers who can get the batteries home and put them on a 50 quid "smart" charger between trips (remembering to check the "water" level of course!).

Hope this has either helped or interested some of the readers.

Mild Red
 
i find it seems to be that when traveling i dont get quite so much power from the solar panels .when parked they get hot and seem to put out more. thats also why i say switch off the panels while travelling and use another source ie. alternator .like i say i could be wrong or may be its one of those illusions.
another good idea on a van is a shallow tank on the roof for heating water .they get very hot and can take some filling on high vehicles .but have a few mates with them made in stainless and painted black. i use solar showers and put black drinks bottles in side clear drink bottles act as greenhouses good for hot water. get hot on the dash board really quick. there are many ways to keep costs down and save power. any more ideas let us know. cheers alan.
 
i find it seems to be that when traveling i dont get quite so much power from the solar panels .when parked they get hot and seem to put out more.

I suspect that what's happening is that when traveling you're getting the effect of intermittent shading that I mentioned earlier, from clouds, trees, natural features and buildings, and when parked up, despite the heat rise, you get a better output if you're in a nice spot. A brief disruption to the sustained light input seems to have a greater effect than the pure percentage time of shadow. Any chemists out there?

There are just so many variables...

Right now I'm wondering how one can convert the energy in hailstones into battery power! :)

Mild Red
 
sometimes in uk it wouldbe good to have a water wheel on the van. that could be reallyusefull as it seems to rain alot. cause if you google there is quite abit on the webb about luna panels. they seem ideal . have a look its interesting.
 
Well, we have covered the full spectrum of suggestions for Phil.

All we need now is his reply to which option he fancies.

My money is on the water wheel.:D
 

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