SORN Fines

[Deleted member 13519]

Hi all
Not directly campervan related but I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this board and I'd like to pick your brains.

I've had a car that I don't use SORNed for just over a year. Due to the fact that I live in a flat the only place I could keep it is in the public car park round the back. It's out of the way and you'd never know it was there unless you actually go behind the building.
One day I had a fine stuck to the window basically saying that I'm not displaying a tax disc while on a public road. This was from the police and was only contestable by taking it up in court. I paid this fine and thought nothing else of it.
A few months later I get a fine in the post from the DVLA which is completely separate from the original one. So essentially in these circumstances you get fined twice.

My question is; can the DVLA legally do this and should I pay this fine?

Thanks for any help.

 

[The Grand Wanderer]

Hi all
Not directly campervan related but I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this board and I'd like to pick your brains.

I've had a car that I don't use SORNed for just over a year. Due to the fact that I live in a flat the only place I could keep it is in the public car park round the back. It's out of the way and you'd never know it was there unless you actually go behind the building.
One day I had a fine stuck to the window basically saying that I'm not displaying a tax disc while on a public road. This was from the police and was only contestable by taking it up in court. I paid this fine and thought nothing else of it.
A few months later I get a fine in the post from the DVLA which is completely separate from the original one. So essentially in these circumstances you get fined twice.

My question is; can the DVLA legally do this and should I pay this fine?

Thanks for any help.

In order to quailfy for SORN the vehicule must be off the public highway.
If it is not then it must be MOTed Taxed and Insured.
DVLA are probably fineing you for not complying with all aspects of the law.
In theory you could be fined every single day that you do not comply with the law.
Surely it would be cheaper to rent a garage.
Sorry I know it's not what you hoped to hear but that's life.
Regards,
Wanderer

 

[AndyC]

This really hinges on whether the place you parked is part of the public highway, i.e. a road maintainable at public expense.

Is the car park actually maintained by the local council?

BTW, you do know that you have to re-declare SORN every year? There are two penalties, as far as I can tell. There is an automatic £80 for failing to declare SORN and potentially a court judgement for failing to display a valid tax disc.

AndyC

 

[torwood]

Hi all
My question is; can the DVLA legally do this and should I pay this fine?
QUOTE]

The short answer is yes they can. It seems like two bites at the cherry but the police Fixed Penalty is for NOT displaying a current tax disc and the DVLA fine is for NOT having current tax which is a different offence.

Be aware that other police officers or traffic wardens may issue a ticket everytime they pass the vehicle and that DVLA will have added the vehicle to a list of their own to have the car park visited and the vehicle removed and crushed at your expense.

Your only choice is to move it to private land to store it and keep the SORN notices up to date. In law a car park can be a road and if it is maintained at public expense - i.e. by local authority the Vehicle Excise Act will apply.

Robert

 

[vwalan]

also now they can add the continuous insurace at you. no tax, no insurance . possibly no mot. not sorn. seems expensive to me. life is getting harder all the time.
cheers alan

 

[CruizingComet]

While I do sympathise with your situation, if it's parked in a public car park how are any officials to know the car is not being used on the highway?

 

[kenjones]

I received a fine for failing to renew the SORN on a scooter which is stored in my (private) garage and never goes near a road.
As others have said you are not permitted to "SORN" a vehicle and keep it on a public road.

 

[Deleted member 13519]

Thanks for the all the replies.

I have been renewing the sorn deceleration so that's not the problem it's purely because I have kept it on what they suspect is a public highway without displaying a tax disc. I'm currently trying to find out who owns the car park as I'm not convinced it is owned by the local authority (more cost).

The reason I asked here is because after doing a search online, lots of other forums are suggesting that it's not legal for them to do this (but it is of course for the police) and they even have draft letters available for you to print out to contest it.

I'm not so much disputing the fine but more the 2 fines for the same thing, it just seems a bit much. The car has been scrapped now so I feel like I've been punished and then punished again. If it was a parking fine for example, you wouldn't expect to pay it then get another from another entity months later.

 

[Deleted member 967]

Thanks for the all the replies.

I have been renewing the sorn deceleration so that's not the problem it's purely because I have kept it on what they suspect is a public highway without displaying a tax disc. I'm currently trying to find out who owns the car park as I'm not convinced it is owned by the local authority (more cost).

The reason I asked here is because after doing a search online, lots of other forums are suggesting that it's not legal for them to do this (but it is of course for the police) and they even have draft letters available for you to print out to contest it.

I'm not so much disputing the fine but more the 2 fines for the same thing, it just seems a bit much. The car has been scrapped now so I feel like I've been punished and then punished again. If it was a parking fine for example, you wouldn't expect to pay it then get another from another entity months later.

Try this site
Property Search - Land Registry
You can use the map search or address search.

 

[torwood]

....I'm not so much disputing the fine but more the 2 fines for the same thing, it just seems a bit much. The car has been scrapped now so I feel like I've been punished and then punished again. If it was a parking fine for example, you wouldn't expect to pay it then get another from another entity months later.

As I said above it is not two fines for the same thing. The police issue a ticket to you for the offence of NOT DISPLAYING a valid tax disc, an offence under section 33 of Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. A copy of there ticket is sent to DVLA who check their records and confirm that no tax is held. They then issue a fine for NOT HAVING tax and offence under section 29 of Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. Sadly for you you commit two offences in the circumstances given.

About the car park under the road traffic law it is a road, however the important point for tax is if it is maintained at public expense. This could be as simple as the local authority litter picking on it as well as maintenance of the entrance, parking areas, etc.

Robert

 

[Deleted member 775]

we live in a block of appartments that have an allocated parking area for each address .as such that area belongs to my property and is private .i can declare sorn as long as my car is parked on that plot .if the place you live has a parking place that is allocated to your address and that address only the you should be ok declareing sorn . if it is just a parking area for any one to park on then i am shure you have to keep your car or van fully legal as its classed as a public area

 

[John H]

Thanks for the all the replies.

I have been renewing the sorn deceleration so that's not the problem it's purely because I have kept it on what they suspect is a public highway without displaying a tax disc. I'm currently trying to find out who owns the car park as I'm not convinced it is owned by the local authority (more cost).

The reason I asked here is because after doing a search online, lots of other forums are suggesting that it's not legal for them to do this (but it is of course for the police) and they even have draft letters available for you to print out to contest it.

I'm not so much disputing the fine but more the 2 fines for the same thing, it just seems a bit much. The car has been scrapped now so I feel like I've been punished and then punished again. If it was a parking fine for example, you wouldn't expect to pay it then get another from another entity months later.

Hi

The public highway includes private land to which the public have access (eg a farm track leading to a farm shop) so, in a car park, you were definitely parked on the public highway. The irony of this is that you could be prosecuted even if you are the landowner in such circumstances.

I would, therefore, be very wary of those websites you refer to which claim you are not liable - there is a great deal of misinformation out there on the web!

As others have correctly said, you were not fined twice for the same thing but for two different things - and you could in theory get a new fine every time the vehicle was found to be still on the public highway - ie every day you leave it there.

Sorry about that - but I wouldn't waste your time and money trying to dispute it - just learn from it.

 

[vwalan]

you can make investigations and challenge it in court. it costs nothing to dispute it. you can handle it by yourself. the onlytime you need a solicitor is to instruct a barrister. you may be able to get one free. i succesfully challenged a speeding fine took 3 visits to magestrates court then 5 times in the crown court. i handled it myself untill the crown court, i managed to get a soliciter for free and he got a barrister for free . we won. on several counts. do lots of home work. dont be bullied by the authorities they like to frighten you. it can be good fun as well.
cheers alan.

 

[John H]

Yes Alan, but there is a big difference between challenging a speeding fine/parking ticket where there may be lots of variables and lots of things to challenge them on and challenging a sorn fine when the situation is about as clear as any situation could be - if you have sorned a vehicle and it is on the public highway the story ends there, I'm afraid - nothing to challenge them on.

 

[sagart]

Probably missed something in the thread, but I thought SORN applied to any untaxed vehicle regardless of where kept?
When to make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) : Directgov - Motoring

 

[AndyC]

The public highway includes private land to which the public have access (eg a farm track leading to a farm shop) so, in a car park, you were definitely parked on the public highway. The irony of this is that you could be prosecuted even if you are the landowner in such circumstances.

Are you sure that's right? I was under the impression that for SORN, and a few other purposes, the 'public highway' is a 'road maintained at public expense', this would include its full width including pavements and verges. But a farm track, maintained presumably by the farmer is not, I think, a public highway in this case, nor is a car park which is privately maintained.

AndyC

 

[AndyC]

Probably missed something in the thread, but I thought SORN applied to any untaxed vehicle regardless of where kept?
When to make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) : Directgov - Motoring

Yes it does, but there is also the offence of keeping a SORNed vehicle on the public highway. The confusion here seems to be whether the car park where the vehicle was kept was a 'public highway'.

 

[vwalan]

hi john . thats why i say do lots of home work. i never challenge them if its really obvious i cant win. but if the carpark is private . i think i would give it a go. bit of searching costs nothing . you maybe right i havent investigated if private is counted as public highway. i wouldnt have left it there myself. i would have made sure it was on real private ground .
as to sorn not all vehicles need to be sorned . i have several here . if they have been off the road for ages they dont need a sorn sending in. there is a year or something that means something . cant remember.

 

[AndyC]

if they have been off the road for ages they dont need a sorn sending in. there is a year or something that means something . cant remember.

SORN was introduced on 31st January 1998, vehicles off the road from before then don't need to be SORNed.

AndyC

 

[John H]

Are you sure that's right? I was under the impression that for SORN, and a few other purposes, the 'public highway' is a 'road maintained at public expense', this would include its full width including pavements and verges. But a farm track, maintained presumably by the farmer is not, I think, a public highway in this case, nor is a car park which is privately maintained.

AndyC

As has been stated above by others, the local authority would only have to prove litter-picking or something else relatively minor to show that it has maintained the land. This may, as you point out, be difficult on a farm track to a farm shop but it would be unlikely to cause them any problems on a public car park, whoever owns it. All they have to do is show that public money has been spent on the roadway.