refillable gas recommendations

[Teutone]

Nice article, but no mention of it being a calor bottle so one must assume it was a gasit bottle because if it is illegal like you say, he would have been arrested and this would be a much bigger story. Calor would have been all over it as well for publicity to stop the practice. Just my thoughts.

sounds a bit funny. Ignited from the summer heat. Hmmmmmm.........

Speaking from own experience, he might have left the fridge running on gas when he filled the bottle......

I have driven in and out of the petrol station (getting diesel) forgetting to switch the gas of the fridge off :scared:

But when filling the LPG, EVERYTHING is switched off. I always double check.

 

[Canalsman]

I have a four hole which is strictly speaking a tank and not a bottle.
The four hole has a gas/liquid seperator to make sure there is never liquid gas coming and and a inbuild flow protector, means if your high pressure pipe to the regualtor ruptures, the gas flow is turned off.
It's all on the gas it website.

PS you can also fit a LED gauge which is a little bit more accurate as it driven by a float and not pressure like the bottle gauage

I have just such a GasIt tank, and the gauge is float operated and extremely accurate ...

 

[listerdiesel]

I continue to be amazed at the lassez-faire attitude towards filling of bottles by unapproved methods, particularly as those doing it should know better.

Suffice to say that the risks far outweigh any benefits, and if it does go badly wrong, you will end up paying for it in one way or another, maybe with your life or serious injury.

Simply not worth the risk. The proper gear is available, why not use it?

In the late 60's we had a demonstration by a Calor Gas representative at a Tonibell depot where I worked. He showed us quite graphically how gas flowed across the floor and how it could ignite from a spark at some distance.

We also had the usual safety talks etc which went in one ear and out of the other for most guys.

We had relief valves for filling the tanks on the icecream vans, when the tank was full the valve would let out gas vapour. One driver left his tank filling and got involved in a conversation with another guy and forgot his tank was filling. When he returned, smoking a cigarette, he thoughtfully threw it away in some scrub alongside the tank, but unfortunately the overflow had been running on his tank for 15 minutes and the scrub was full of gas.

The resulting explosion blew out windows and caused him some burns, but nothing worse as it was relatively open.

Never take risks with inflammables, it just isn't worth risking your life or other's lives.

I'm not being holier than thou, I wouldn't risk my own family or vehicles with these fillers, my tanks are properly installed and maintained.

Peter

 

[Teutone]

I continue to be amazed at the lassez-faire attitude towards filling of bottles by unapproved methods, particularly as those doing it should know better.

Suffice to say that the risks far outweigh any benefits, and if it does go badly wrong, you will end up paying for it in one way or another, maybe with your life or serious injury.

Simply not worth the risk. The proper gear is available, why not use it?

In the late 60's we had a demonstration by a Calor Gas representative at a Tonibell depot where I worked. He showed us quite graphically how gas flowed across the floor and how it could ignite from a spark at some distance.

We also had the usual safety talks etc which went in one ear and out of the other for most guys.

We had relief valves for filling the tanks on the icecream vans, when the tank was full the valve would let out gas vapour. One driver left his tank filling and got involved in a conversation with another guy and forgot his tank was filling. When he returned, smoking a cigarette, he thoughtfully threw it away in some scrub alongside the tank, but unfortunately the overflow had been running on his tank for 15 minutes and the scrub was full of gas.

The resulting explosion blew out windows and caused him some burns, but nothing worse as it was relatively open.

Never take risks with inflammables, it just isn't worth risking your life or other's lives.

I'm not being holier than thou, I wouldn't risk my own family or vehicles with these fillers, my tanks are properly installed and maintained.

Peter

I share your view. When I was looking into all the bottle re-filling stuff I came to the same conclusion. The proper stuff is out there. Why not use it and be safe.

 

[Sundri]

Whenever this subject comes up I still can’t believe that people will pay thousands for a van, think nothing of filling it up with diesel every trip and yet take risks like these to save a few quid a year!

 

[shortcircuit]

It also amazes me the number of comments made from individuals who have no idea of what is involved in filling a cylinder and pass comments based on no experience. If those had actually seen a cylinder being properly refilled they would ask what the difference is to filling a cut-off cylinder. It would make you more aware and take care in filling rather than blindly relying on an automatic cut-off valve to function.

 

[listerdiesel]

It also amazes me the number of comments made from individuals who have no idea of what is involved in filling a cylinder and pass comments based on no experience. If those had actually seen a cylinder being properly refilled they would ask what the difference is to filling a cut-off cylinder. It would make you more aware and take care in filling rather than blindly relying on an automatic cut-off valve to function.

Excuse me, but I have seen more than one of these 'devices' in use and have made sure I was suitably distant during the process. I have been involved with bulk LPG for many years and we run multiple LPG-fuelled vehicles in the family, plus trailer with refillable and the Mercedes. I fill up on average every week, more than that if we are on a trip, so see plenty of dodgy fillers and also plenty being refused at filling stations.

There is no manufacturer of LPG cylinders that suggests or recommends their use, and most say that their use is dangerous.

The point of a cut-out inside a cylinder is that it takes away any issues for the person filling the tank, removes any danger to others in the locality, is a known and reliable method which is supported across Europe and is a written EN standard with known parameters, both for the filler and the cylinder.

Your device has only cheapness to recommend it. If it has been tested and has approvals, perhaps you could quote them here?

Peter

 

[Deleted member 9849]

It also amazes me the number of comments made from individuals who have no idea of what is involved in filling a cylinder and pass comments based on no experience. If those had actually seen a cylinder being properly refilled they would ask what the difference is to filling a cut-off cylinder. It would make you more aware and take care in filling rather than blindly relying on an automatic cut-off valve to function.

What amazes me is the amount of people who are prepared to use non proprietary and potentially dangerous equipment just to save a few pennies.The approved equipment is readily available so why not use it,the extra cost is negligible compared to the amount we spend on a motorhome.(I have been refilling my underslung gas tank for 4 years so have some experience)

 

[shortcircuit]

Excuse me, but I have seen more than one of these 'devices' in use and have made sure I was suitably distant during the process. I have been involved with bulk LPG for many years and we run multiple LPG-fuelled vehicles in the family, plus trailer with refillable and the Mercedes. I fill up on average every week, more than that if we are on a trip, so see plenty of dodgy fillers and also plenty being refused at filling stations.

There is no manufacturer of LPG cylinders that suggests or recommends their use, and most say that their use is dangerous.

The point of a cut-out inside a cylinder is that it takes away any issues for the person filling the tank, removes any danger to others in the locality, is a known and reliable method which is supported across Europe and is a written EN standard with known parameters, both for the filler and the cylinder.

Your device has only cheapness to recommend it. If it has been tested and has approvals, perhaps you could quote them here?

Peter

What a load of twaddle. Please explain the difference in filling that you were "suitably distant". The procedure is exactly the same other than the cylinder must be empty and you switch off the gas supply at the correct point indicated on a slow moving delivery gauge.

If one was to plumb in a standard cylinder with a remote nozzle fitted, how would you know the difference, you cant.

 

[Deleted member 9849]

................................................

If one was to plumb in a standard cylinder with a remote nozzle fitted, how would you know the difference, you cant.

You can tell the difference as an approved cylinder would automatically cut out at 80% full,the standard cylinder would fill to the top if the operator was negligient.

 

[listerdiesel]

What a load of twaddle. Please explain the difference in filling that you were "suitably distant". The procedure is exactly the same other than the cylinder must be empty and you switch off the gas supply at the correct point indicated on a slow moving delivery gauge.

If one was to plumb in a standard cylinder with a remote nozzle fitted, how would you know the difference, you cant.

Your risk, your neck if it goes wrong, and possibly someone else as well.

News | Danger Of Filling LPG Cylinders At Autogas Sites -Calor

I know where I would rather be, NOT around people like you at service stations.

Peter


Peter

 

[Bazbro]

Your risk, your neck if it goes wrong, and possibly someone else as well.

Quite.

The 80% "overfill protection" cut-off is there for a reason. Fill a tank to somewhere near 100% (by relying on the delivery pump to shut off) on a cold morning and then park in the sun... the pressure inside the tank could become enormous and could rupture the tank/fittings. And that's when I don't want to be parked anywhere near you! Nor have to represent you in your subsequent Court appearances, both Criminal and Civil.

I'm staggered that the dire possible consequences of over-filling lpg tanks, beyond the safe 80%, seem to have escaped some of you??

Barry

 

[Channa]

There is a lot of scaremongering from both camps on the refilling of gas cylinders, you have calor etc on one side who obviously do not want you to fill their cylinders it is their businesses you are affecting, then you have the refillable gas cylinder suppliers who again want you to buy their products.
The fittings are all going to be pretty much the same as some of the lpg component supply companies actually advertise kits to refill your own cylinders, as for being illegal that again seems to be a grey area,I have looked and found lots of guidance and recommendations but no actual legislation as yet.
It seems the lpg association is an industry body that has a voluntary code for installers it is not a regulatory body.

It seems 50 shades of grey.

if butane or propane are used as refrigerants which they are although there seem to be far better gasses.the legislation is there under the Fgas regs It is illegal and a criminal offence to mess about with them.

Of course we are using as propellants not refrigerants, But the legislation refers to "handling" of refrigerants not not necessarily what they are being used for.Propane and butane fall under that scope.

It would only take a couple of lines adding to the FGAS and refilling without being qualified could soon be a law. And give complete clarity.


In fact the more I think about it under the current fgas regs it could be construed as illegal, handling a refirgerant without certification. The breaking into the system (i.e changing a bottle) falls outside the scope because used as a propellant not a refrigerant.

channa

 

[listerdiesel]

There is a lot of scaremongering from both camps on the refilling of gas cylinders, you have calor etc on one side who obviously do not want you to fill their cylinders it is their businesses you are affecting, then you have the refillable gas cylinder suppliers who again want you to buy their products.

I think the bulk of all LPG in the UK comes from Calor or Calor and Shell.

I agree they have a vested interest, but they also have to set the standards for the industry as the single largest operator in the UK.

We went refillable from day one, not to save money, but for the convenience of having a fixed bottle/cylinder and being able to refill in Europe.

Peter

 

[Canalsman]

Consider the insurance consequences.

If you choose to refill bottles connected to your 'van, and by this I mean bottles not intended/approved for consumer bulk filling, in the event of fire or explosion your insurer will reject your claim!

They will probably also reject any claims by third parties which could be financially catastrophic.

 

[shortcircuit]

Many years ago when it was first posted of individuals cobbling together bits of pipework and fittings to refill a gas cylinder I was in the Ooh, Ahh brigade as it all was a bit haphazard and dangerous as it was suggested that if you overfilled you simply vented off into the atmosphere, which is stupid.

I purchased Gaslow refillable cylinders and installed them and became acquaint with the procedure involved in filling.

Recently adapters have been manufactured, to a high quality, allowing standard bottle to be refilled following a simple procedure which is virtually exactly the same as filling the cylinders fitted with cut-off valves. Whether this is legal or not needs clarified

I used the grey matter between my ears to work out the dangers involved and not just simply bleat out. An empty 11kg cylinder is filled with 22 lts of gas, which is 80% of capacity. If an empty 11kg cylinder is filled, following the exactly same procedure as a Gaslow system, with 20 lts of gas, where is the danger?

 

[Talbot]

I'm not certain it's illegal. I can understand why companies like Calor would wish to outlaw it. £22 for a replacement bottle versus £6 from an LPG station. Calor use similar adaptors to fill the empty bottles. The adaptors sold on eBay are robust devices.

I have an underslung lpg tank fitted as standard, but when I'm in Europe I have different adaptors for different countries. I have to select an adaptor and screw it to my uk adaptor. These adaptors I purchased on eBay from the same companies that sell the refillable adaptors. I'm therefore probably exposed to the same risk on the forecourt as someone refilling an empty bottle, but I'm legitimate.

It's dangerous filling a car with petrol but we all do it.

This is an lpg gas tank explosion, but it's got nothing to do with filling empty bottles.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-nOPvXiIWQ

 

[Deleted member 9849]

...................................................
I used the grey matter between my ears to work out the dangers involved and not just simply bleat out. An empty 11kg cylinder is filled with 22 lts of gas, which is 80% of capacity. If an empty 11kg cylinder is filled, following the exactly same procedure as a Gaslow system, with 20 lts of gas, where is the danger?

I am sure the majority of members on here are more than capable of working out the figures and refilling a standard gas bottle on the forecourt.The danger is,and something which you have not considered is human error.What if your'e having a bad day,lost in an unfamiliar country,satnav and wife being awkward and you are feeling generally stressed.It would be very easy to make a mistake in those circumstances and overfill the gas bottle.We have all made mistakes in the past and I don't believe anyone who says they haven't.The huge problem with LPG is that a genuine mistake could well be disastrous,if a genuine refillable bottle or tank is used then it is impossible to make that mistake and overfill.

What I find quite incredulous is the members on here who are prepared to take what I believe is an unacceptable risk which could affect others nearby just to save a small amount of money.If you want to risk your life then that's your choice but it's not right to expose other people to that risk.

Just watch this video to see the power of exploding gas bottles............

Russian Truck Gas Explosion - Балоны с Газом ДТП [HD] - YouTube

 

[shortcircuit]

If you are prepared to drive in the conditions you describe than you are irresponsible.

I am not advocating the use of self refill but I take exception to the scaremongering posts of the dangers that are no more so than filling a cut-off system. Following a set procedure is not to difficult to follow.

 

[Bazbro]

Wow! Look at those cylinders go! Each subsequent explosion is just one cylinder...

The problem with your proposal, shortcircuit,

An empty 11kg cylinder is filled with 22 lts of gas, which is 80% of capacity. If an empty 11kg cylinder is filled, following the exactly same procedure as a Gaslow system, with 20 lts of gas, where is the danger?

is the supposition that the cylinder really IS completely, 100% empty and that you only ever, ever, ever put in exactly the appropriate 80% of gas. The world I inhabit isn't as perfect as that, but I'm glad that yours is. There would never be any need for any safety devices with that thinking.

Wakk44 is spot-on when he says

The danger is,and something which you have not considered is human error.

Barry