Panel van with windows

[GeoffL]

Jumping in a bit late here perhaps, but both the DVLA and the DOT say that, no matter what V5C says, the higher speed limits apply provided the interior (habitation) requirements are met and the vehicle has an unladen weight of 3.05 tonnes or less (I've linked a Parker's article on this below). However, AFAICT, scam vans and roadside scameras rely on the V5C data and have been known to send off NIPs for speeding even though no offence has been committed (if the DVLA are correct). So the safest option right now would seem to be to drive to the lower limits.

Campervan speed limits: what they are, why they are so confusing

Speed limits for camper conversions can be very confusing - our guide to campervan speed limits. Read more on Parkers

www.parkers.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 84699]

I can't see any disadvantages at all. There's no problem with insurance, theres plenty of companies that will insure a van as a camper without having a motorcaravan classification. It might have been an issue years ago but in 2022 there are so many campers classed as VWW that it makes no difference.
The only difference I can see is there is a slightly higher speed limit for small campers than vans on single and dual carriageways. If you get a larger van say a relay/boxer/sprinter size then the speed limits are the same for campers as normal vans

 

[trevskoda]

Noone here gives a sh-t about speed limits, many works vans/trucks pass me screaming like a Stuka.

 

[Robmac]

I can't see any disadvantages at all. There's no problem with insurance, theres plenty of companies that will insure a van as a camper without having a motorcaravan classification. It might have been an issue years ago but in 2022 there are so many campers classed as VWW that it makes no difference.
The only difference I can see is there is a slightly higher speed limit for small campers than vans on single and dual carriageways. If you get a larger van say a relay/boxer/sprinter size then the speed limits are the same for campers as normal vans

Not if insured as a Motorcaravan, then the speed limits differ from normal vans of the same size.

 

[GeoffL]

[...] If you get a larger van say a relay/boxer/sprinter size then the speed limits are the same for campers as normal vans

That's not the case. If the vehicle is under 3050kg unladen, the higher speed limits should apply. Even some PHGV motorhomes (e.g. mine) come in under the 3050kg unladen weight limit and so the higher speed limits apply. However, for normal vans the limit is 2000kg max gross weight -- and they must also be "car derived". There is thus a very real possibility of drivers of 'legit' PVC conversions being unjustly issued speeding tickets when, according to the DVLA, the lower limits do not apply. Unfortunately, that's not been tested in court AFAICT and it would take a case in the appeal court to set the required precedent.

 

[mark61]

That's not the case. If the vehicle is under 3050kg unladen, the higher speed limits should apply. Even some PHGV motorhomes (e.g. mine) come in under the 3050kg unladen weight limit and so the higher speed limits apply. However, for normal vans the limit is 2000kg max gross weight -- and they must also be "car derived". There is thus a very real possibility of drivers of 'legit' PVC conversions being unjustly issued speeding tickets when, according to the DVLA, the lower limits do not apply. Unfortunately, that's not been tested in court AFAICT and it would take a case in the appeal court to set the required precedent.

Not tested in court, but here one police force cancelling a speeding ticket once challenged.

https://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/campervan-panel-van-speed-limits-update/

 

[wildebus]

Not tested in court, but here one police force cancelling a speeding ticket once challenged.

https://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/campervan-panel-van-speed-limits-update/

One of the replies from a "high up" in the DVLA replied to someone asking about consequences of non-reclassification had said that if a vehicle was being legitimately used as a Motor Caravan, than the speed limits of a Motor Caravan would apply. She did go on to say, however, that it was a matter for the Police and then CPS of the region to decide whether to prosecute or not. (and it is up to the driver if they want to challenge. Nobody HAS to accept a fixed penalty and can go all the way to the High Court if they think it is unfair).

There is a load of opinion and misinformation on this topic. There was someone on the VW T4 Forum (I think it was? It was on a forum I use and I recall the thread itself) who apparantly really got away with a ticket .... he said he got done for doing 73MPH on a dual carriage and was 13MPH over the limit. He challanged it saying he was in a Camper and so the speed limit should have be 70MPH, not 60MPH. He got the ticket recinded, and I think on the basis that he should have been entitled to do 70MPH, and his speed over 70MPH was within the permissable range of straying over the limit! I didn't think he had a hope in hell, but there you go!

 

[REC]

I have kept the letter from DVLA stating that our van will not be classified as motorcaravan. But that this will not affect speed limits of insurance as the van conforms to rules for motorcaravans interior. Just in case we get a speeding fine and we have to challenge it.

 

[colinm]

A little aside, about 8 years ago someone I know was issued a speeding ticket even though he was in a registered 'Motorcaravan', he had to supply a weighbridge receipt to get speeding ticket rescinded. I've been through the same speed camera and not had a ticket, but I note when being MOT'ed a weight less than 3050kg comes up on screen.

 

[GeoffL]

A little aside, about 8 years ago someone I know was issued a speeding ticket even though he was in a registered 'Motorcaravan', he had to supply a weighbridge receipt to get speeding ticket rescinded. I've been through the same speed camera and not had a ticket, but I note when being MOT'ed a weight less than 3050kg comes up on screen.

That sounds perverse if the van was subject to Class 4 MOT since Class 4 is only available up to unladen weight of 3000kg and hence every Class 4 motor caravan must be under the 3050kg limit. Even though the weight recorded on the MOT test might exceed that, it is the unladen weight that counts and that should be the builder's specified unladen weight if available.

 

[colinm]

That sounds perverse if the van was subject to Class 4 MOT since Class 4 is only available up to unladen weight of 3000kg and hence every Class 4 motor caravan must be under the 3050kg limit. Even though the weight recorded on the MOT test might exceed that, it is the unladen weight that counts and that should be the builder's specified unladen weight if available.

I'm not quite sure why he got ticket and I've not, although I would note that it wasn't until a couple of years later I started to regularly pass that camera, and it may be that the systems are better integrated.
As for 'builder's specified unladen weight', my CoC states a 'unladen weight' (written in German) that appears to be the MIRO with full tanks, I don't think continental manufacturers understand the UK.

 

[wildebus]

That sounds perverse if the van was subject to Class 4 MOT since Class 4 is only available up to unladen weight of 3000kg and hence every Class 4 motor caravan must be under the 3050kg limit. Even though the weight recorded on the MOT test might exceed that, it is the unladen weight that counts and that should be the builder's specified unladen weight if available.

Hi Geoff,
the Weights for MOTs are GVW, not unladen. So a commercial goods van with a Gross (GVW) of 3000Kg is Class 4. And a GVW between 3000Kg and 3500Kg is Class 7. Then above that you are in HGV territory.
Non-commercial Passenger Vehicles* are a different thing and they are all Class 4 as far as I am aware, regardless of weight - which is why a 1000kg car and a 7.5t Motorhome are both Class 4.
*Buses and Minibuses seem to need PSV tests rather than MOTs

The only time unladen weight is relevant to anything legally that I know of is when it comes to speed limits of Motor Caravans, where under 3.05t (3050Kg) UNLADEN, you can travel at the same speed as cars, but over you are restricted to commercial van speeds. The ACTUAL running weight of your vehicle is irrelevant to the speed limit, and it is not uncommon at all to have a motorhome that is taxed as an HGV due to weight permitted to drive at car speeds and a 3.5t motorhome restricted to commercial speeds. (I think that is the case with my own, where the "SE" pack additions means Autotrail seem to quote an unladen weight of 3070Kg (and that is only in a brochure, not on any specific documentation with the registered vehicle).

It may be the 'MIRO' weight they quote, it may be 'ULW' but the weird thing is that there is a law that states a speed limit based on ULW, but there is at the same time no legal requirement for anyone to actually record what the ULW of a vehicle is, so if a case came to court, who can prove you are under or over what is an irrelvant (in terms of vehicle usage) measure?
When I did my last camper conversion, AFTER I got the V5C back with the "Motor Caravan" reclassification, due to the GVW of the vehicle, I deliberately went to a weighbridge and got an official ticket showing the weight of the vehicle so if the situation arose, I would have MY proof and the prosecution would have nothing.
So that 'Motor Caravan' showed a weight of (from memory) 2940Kg, although it is a 4.6t vehicle. As an aside, after loading up with all the bits and pieces for a trip, I did still have around 1t spare capacity so never close to the limit.

 

[barlicker]

I have noticed that many dealers are selling vw pop tops that have been professionally converted from a used van up to 50k , but are sold as panel vans with windows, ???

The DVLA do not recognise a van with a pop top as a motor caravan/ camper van and will not change the use category.

 

[barlicker]

I don't think there are any pitfalls.
Never had a problem getting insurance. Both my previous and current vans were insured as commercials while being converted, and once completed (or when pretty much converted) insurance was transferred to reflect the van was converted. Both vans at that stage were still registered as panel vans.

Not a member of any clubs, but have used club sites. I think once someone asked to see in the back to make sure it was converted and not just a van with side windows.

Speeding tickets may be an issue, you won't have to pay them or get points. The law is very clear, the national speed limit applies to passenger cars, dual purpose vehicles and Motorcaravans. Provided it's not a mini bus (more than 8 seats, I think, check that one though) within the 3.05 tonne unladen weigh and whatever the length requirement is, you'll be classed as a dual purpose vehicle.

Never got a ticket in the UK so have not had to go through a speeding issue though.

Go to Jerba Vans. They have great write up about this and have a look at their response to the current legislation about vans that are not recognised by DVLA as motor caravans but are fully equipped. It's an eye opener !

 

[alcam]

Go to Jerba Vans. They have great write up about this and have a look at their response to the current legislation about vans that are not recognised by DVLA as motor caravans but are fully equipped. It's an eye opener !

Some of this stuff is plain daft . You must have decals ! Don't see how that would stand up in court
Yes I removed my decals

 

[GeoffL]

Go to Jerba Vans. They have great write up about this and have a look at their response to the current legislation about vans that are not recognised by DVLA as motor caravans but are fully equipped. It's an eye opener !

Thanks for that. For convenience of anyone else wanting to read the Jerba Vans blog posts, they are here (original post) and here (more recent update).

The DVLA excuse that the V5C must reflect the outward appearance makes no sense because of the speed limit difference. Surely, it's more important that DVLA provide the correct info so that people's time and money isn't wasted in dealing with incorrect speeding tickets and (worse) points, fines -- possibly disqualification and even loss of livelihood -- by those who wrongly believe that speed limit enforcement authorities are invariably correct.

 

[myvanwy]

The DVLA do not recognise a van with a pop top as a motor caravan/ camper van and will not change the use category.

However, the VW Cali and Ocean have pop tops. Are they classed as motor caravans?

 

[GeoffL]

However, the VW Cali and Ocean have pop tops. Are they classed as motor caravans?

From posts in the VW California Club forum, it seems that they're now being classed as MPVs -- and that has caused insurance problems: https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/new-dvla-classification.29861/

 

[wildebus]

That would make sense as they are passenger vehicle out of the factory rather than being converted by a third-party from a van-based Transporter.

The Transporter I converted to a Campervan was, like the comments above, classified as an MPV Body Type and was a "Diesel Car" with M1 classification, as it was a Shuttle version (so Factory built passenger vehicle).
In fact, at the time I converted it, I could have done a reclassify but specifically decided to leave it as an MPV (there are a couple of advantages over a Motor Caravan) and had no issues getting a full Campervan insurance policy for it even after telling the company I was not reclassifing it.